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[QUOTE username=Ferrugenfish userid=9004165 postid=1332911140]

Diesel motors are a "mixed bag" over here too because of the relatively new requirement to use the DEF fluid/system, which degrades fuel economy, adds lots of weight, and is one more thing to break/fix.  But apparently it saves the planet, so it's a law. I'd probably get the gas version if it had as much torque as the diesel option (and if it came with an upgraded tranny like the diesel does). We do seem to be power hogs over here in the U.S.... but that might be explained by the steep inclines, the prevelence of towing large loads, and the really high elevations (significant power loss at high elevation that we have to account for). [/QUOTE]

Hey Ferrugenfish,

You've done a great job in this thread articulating some of the differences between different national markets, and you make thoughtful critical comments of some features of the IG while simultaneously expressing support for both the vehicle's overall design, and for Ineos - for having the courage to take the risk of building a vehicle many of us never thought we'd see again as a new production-vehicle. I appreciate your approach. I think it is hard for some folk to recognize just how different markets can be, but also to recognize that the IG is a modern vehicle (despite being body-on-frame, and having solid axles). As a modern vehicle, many expect to use the IG as a "do it all" vehicle: for overlanding and on 4x4 trails, to tow a teardrop or travel trailer, but also to commute, travel on highways where traffic flows at 75 mph, and - at least in the Rockies - be able to accelerate at highway speeds at altitudes between 8,000 and 11,000 feet. In some ways, this is a tall order.

A normal day for my wife and I here in Colorado is a day like yesterday: with an early start we drove 30 minutes at 75 mph, then ascended a winding canyon, then onto a dirt road. At the end of the dirt road there was a 3-mile steep, rocky climb that a stock 4Runner handled using our rear locker and BFG KO2s. The tires are the only 'non-stock' item on the vehicle. The stock Bridgestone Duelers do not provide enough traction for these kinds of climbs, and have thin sidewalls prone to puncture. The trail would have been easier/less stressful in our old JKU on 35s. Yeah, its fun to get out, examine the line, do some spotting, but our goal was the destination more so than the actual "off-roading". The 4x4 climb got us to a trailhead at about 9,500 feet. From there, we hiked to 13,000 feet and a beautiful summit, and then made it home to start work at 12:00 noon. A great day, and we recognize how lucky we are to live like this. My point though, is to describe a typical day of vehicle use. Before we went mostly remote with work, we commuted down a canyon from 8,500 feet to 5,500 feet, and back up, and used the same vehicles for our overlanding adventures and for accessing high trailheads. I've heard some folk on this forum describe how their old Defender works great for - quote - "plodding around the country" with just 111 horse power; I think it is awesome that this works for them, but from our perspective - that is not a modern vehicle that will meet our needs. The old Defender would be great on the trails, but not on our roads. I know, because I drove a Defender in the service, and I've owned vehicles of similar design - like a 1975 FJ-40, which was built like a tank, geared super low, amazing off-road, but miserable to drive on highway. Frankly, on modern roads it was unsafe. Merging onto a highway was often dangerous without the ability to accelerate into fast-moving traffic, including 18-wheel semi trucks moving at high speed. When I look at the Grenadier, I do not compare it to the old Defender; to me that is completely irrelevant. Instead, I try to assess how well it will meet our present needs.

Anyway... I also wanted to mention that since 2018, the BMW B58 has been equipped with a Petrol Particulate Filter (PPF), also called a Gasoline Particulate Filter (GPF), to capture soot that is produced as a consequence of direct injection. This allows the B58 to meet Euro-6 emissions. I do not know for sure that the Grenadier will come with a GPF, but from what I have been able to learn, BMW is no longer producing the B58 without a GPF. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. GPFs do not seem to be as problematic as the diesel emission systems (EGR and the use of Diesel Exhaust Fluid), but the gas option also has some 'new' emissions controls.

We are looking forward to test-driving the Grenadier!
 
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[QUOTE username=Davman userid=8961117 postid=1332912610]
Whilst he does make a lot of good points, I think he just after LIKES and VIEWS at the moment - trying to provide some kind of content for his channel.  This is what all Youtubers/Content creators have to do, trying to create controversy so more people watch and comment on their videos, and hence watch more videos on their channel, hence fund his offroad lifestyle.[/QUOTE]

Personally I think he cares deeply about Ineos' success... so much so that he's not willing to gloss over issues.  He's willing to take on a bunch of shiners who ignore his words in the video and just reduce his message to "this rig isn't as good as mine".  He'll have to endure those people for the sake of helping Ineos with the next version of this rig.  He represents the extreme end of users, which Ineos itself says it's after.   It's like that saying, that a true friend will tell you the truth... that's what he's doing, in a respectful way.  Nobody in this thread, who has put this guy down, has even half of his experience... that much is clear.  It's also clear that many didn't listen to the guy's words; if they did, half of their arguments would disappear. 
 
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[QUOTE username=stickshifter userid=8617054 postid=1332915934]

Hey Ferrugenfish,

You've done a great job in this thread articulating some of the differences between different national markets, and you make thoughtful critical comments of some features of the IG while simultaneously expressing support for both the vehicle's overall design, and for Ineos - for having the courage to take the risk of building a vehicle many of us never thought we'd see again as a new production-vehicle. I appreciate your approach. I think it is hard for some folk to recognize just how different markets can be......

We are looking forward to test-driving the Grenadier![/QUOTE]

Thanks man I appreciate it!   Your "day in the life" example is perfect as I'm sure lots of people in the U.K had no idea that, for example, the average elevation of Colorado (a State in the U.S.) is about 6,800 feet..... average.  That whole state is about 2,000 feet taller than the UK's tallest mountain peaks, and that's just the average elevation on Colorado, not it's mountain roads which I know go over 11k
 

emax

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A youtuber with such reach should however be aware of what he is triggering.
 

ADVAW8S

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I feel Christian and Vera from LR Time provided a great example of how it should be done.  A thoughtful discussion around the Grenadier.   
 

ADVAW8S

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I feel Christian and Vera from LR Time provided a great example of how it should be done.  A thoughtful discussion around the Grenadier.
 
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The footrest is a show stopper for me ?

Such a fundamental mistake, all that effort designing an building a dream 4x4 only to rune it with an unconformable driving/seating position. 
 

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[QUOTE username=Jackson79er userid=8980525 postid=1332954014]The footrest is a show stopper for me ?

Such a fundamental mistake, all that effort designing an building a dream 4x4 only to rune it with an unconformable driving/seating position. [/QUOTE]
So did you find it a problem when you drove it? Did you drive on road or off-road or both?
 

stuart1927

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I watched that video and although he made some reasonable points (admittedly based on non-confirmed data), his overall tone was  very negative...like he was looking for problems. I'm always very suspiscious of this and to me this indicates a fundamental negative bias. I'm not sure why this would be the case, but that's what I was getting. As others have said, the IG needs to be configured for a reasonably wide audience within a niche application. This is a tough thing to do. Based on everything I've seen so far, Ineos have done a pretty good job and seem to be listening to their potential customers. The Australian market (and possibly SA) may have issues with ultimate range, but I can't see that being a show stopper. I'm sure after market solutions will be available for the relatively small % of customers who need it. When I look at most of the Land cruiser 70's and older defenders that have been modded for extreme over-landing or offroad use, they barely reseamble the original vehicles. I think folks who want to mod the IG will do just that. It may be a bit more difficult, but not impossible. It's still a great canvass to start with and a much better base platform than any of the cars mentioned. I'm still very excited about the IG and although I won't give them a free ride if the car eventually does turn out to have some major issues; let's wait until we see a finished one before we start condeming it.

Another thing to note, is going by the comments on the video, there are a large number of folks who are influenced by this guy and take what he says as gospel. I even saw some  saying they'd wouldn't be ordering one  (or cancelling their order)  because of his comments!!! Now, the fact that some people appear to be unnable to make their own objective decisions is one thing.....but overly negative impressions (based on a lack of data) is damaging, especially as all impressions are based on early prototypes. I think it's quite irresponsible to make such comments without qualification.  
 

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Excellent comments Stuart.

The IG has been intentionally designed to cover a wider spectrum of use than ia 4WD designed essentially for hard or extreme off roading that a small but growing portion of the 4WD market does. 

This then explains some of the frustrations explained in the video.
 

Davman

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To be fair though, I think we all have had some of our initial expectations let down - perhaps our expectations were too high for what is realistically possible in the world of homologation motoring.  For one, I was disappointed that the Payload wasn't 1000kg - despite it being one of Sir Jim's core requirements for the car.

However, most people evaluate the car as a whole, share our little gripes on this forums, keep loving the car, and we get on with life.

Some people share their gripes via Youtube video.
 
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[QUOTE username=DaveB userid=8923052 postid=1332955611]
So did you find it a problem when you drove it? Did you drive on road or off-road or both?[/QUOTE]

Pretty sure you know the answer to both your questions.  No and no, I only sat in the vehicle for ~5 mins during the prototype test drive but just couldn't get comfortable.  You may think I’m being a little precious, but I’m 6’4” and like to stretch often whilst driving, also planning on towing a van around OZ so comfort is an important factor consider for me personally. As you hinted ?, I will reserve my final judgement until I’ve actually driven the production Grenny. 
 

cheswick

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[QUOTE username=Nomad300 userid=9017022 postid=1332960173]

Have you noticed the steering has a Bilstein damper fitted - probably to eradicate the wobble you mention. [/QUOTE]

Go back in this thread and read the post by @CountyV8.

No need to speculate when you have facts ?
 

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[QUOTE username=CountyV8 userid=8620645 postid=1332905361]Hi all

Regarding 1st gear being too fast I have been around the Appley farm course shown in the video at no time during the decent was the speed too fast. They seem to have used different video clips to make a more entertaining film for the viewer. The course was very wet and muddy during my test ride in the prototype vehicle and at no time was traction broken during the down hill sections.

Regarding the so called death wobble this still from the video he showed seems to show components that are either worn or out of adjustment !


 

I think that this may be the transmission cooler so its well out of the way ?????
 

And another thing  he seems to have used one of my annotated images
 [/QUOTE]
 
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[QUOTE username=Nomad300 userid=9017022 postid=1332960173]

Have you noticed the steering has a Bilstein damper fitted - probably to eradicate the wobble you mention. [/QUOTE]

We can get vibration from mis-balanced or deformed tires, or from rough roads. Steering dampers are designed to absorb "normal" oscillations from gravel roads, dirt roads, and other road irregularities. True "death wobble" is much more significant (hence the name), and typically comes from loose or worn front end components. A steering damper might mask initial stages of death wobble, but once "death wobble" progresses a damper won't help. Some people respond to initial wobble by beefing up their steering damper, but this is like putting on a bigger band-aid, and it avoids addressing the real problem (loose or worn components). Many in the Jeep community are familiar with "death wobble" because Jeep does not deliver its vehicles with super-beefy ball joints, front track bars, drag links, tie-rod ends, etc. When people go to larger tires these components wear-out faster, and so a lot of Jeepers get "death wobble". This is one reason why moving to larger tires is much more involved than just slapping on bigger rubber, and it is why more off-roaders in the U.S. are opting for vehicles that come from the factory with the tire-size they want (Jeep offers 33s and 35s on the Wrangler with appropriate gearing, and with some improvements to suspension and front-end steering, Ford offers 33s, 35s, and 37s on the Bronco with appropriate gearing and excellent upgrades to suspension and steering).

Here are three good resources for anyone interested in learning more about death wobble:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uQwlmlhiF4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii81V7XYr-k&list=UUKzIyplv3FIj1EXoFsRG0qg&index=2

https://www.extremeterrain.com/wrangler-jeep-death-wobble.html
 

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Cheers Stickshift
 

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[QUOTE username=Nomad300 userid=9017022 postid=1332960980]Haha - so why don't you quote from it, instead of being a smart arse! Now will add a smiley. ??

No one has any facts on this site - it's all speculation.[/QUOTE]

if you take someone trying to help you as being a smart arse, you’re either interpreting the words the wrong way or need to be little bit less defensive.

Someone more familiar with this forum software has done as you asked but just a reminder, no one here owes you anything.
 

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Sex and controversy sell...such a negative video garners more you tube views - and thus "pays the rent."Thus it pays to plug the negative side of things. Oh , and if there was sex there might be more patreons ?" For myself I am an optimist—it does not seem to be much use being anything else." - Winston ChurchillCan't wait to enjoy my Grenadier ? 
 

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18 hours ago · Edited Nomad300 wrote:Have you noticed the steering has a Bilstein damper fitted - probably to eradicate the wobble you mention. 

My understanding...I may stand corrected? the steering damper is primarily to protect one from broken  thumbs/wrist due to sudden aggressive  feedback through the steering wheel when the front wheels suddenly change direction when driving over rough terrain  (which is why early in the piece, before the days of power steering, we were taught to drive with thumbs along the steering wheel, not wrapped around it...  )

 
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Regarding criticism of ground clearance made in the video:

Ineos lists ground clearance as 10.4 inches, but there are different ways of measuring so-called "ground clearance". For example, Ram lists the Power Wagon as having 14.2 inches of ground clearance (see photo below), when - in fact - the distance from the ground to the bottom of the rear differential is just under 8.5 inches. I don't know how Ram is measuring "ground clearance" when they claim 14.2 inches.

 

Unfortunately, I am also a bit skeptical of the 10.4 inches of "ground clearance" listed for the Grenadier...





Yes, the angle of observation is skewing things a bit in the first photo, but in many photos and videos I have seen, the rear skid plate does not seem to have 10.4 inches of clearance (distance from the ground to the bottom of the skid plate). Has anyone on the forum actually crawled under the Grenadier and measured this? Thanks in advance.
 

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