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[Ferrugenfish]

[QUOTE username=Che userid=8996982 postid=1332907128]@Ferrugenfish I think maybe my perspective from here in Australia is different to the US - I know you guys have a tendency towards rock crawler style vehicles, that exists in Australia to some extent but 35" tires are kind of where it ends for the majority of vehicles here. I find it amazing you can buy vehicles fitted with 35's from factory in the states! My benchmark here is the Landcruiser 76 (70 series wagon) which is similar in size and philosophy to the Grenadier, that vehicle does start to require modification once you start moving above 33". The 70 series is the most common in the outback here so that is my frame of reference. [/QUOTE] 

Totally.  Most videos I've seen titled something like, "ideal tire size" or "how big tire do I need?" that are based out of Australia come to the same conclusion that 33" is a sweet spot, and general limit after which, if you go bigger yields questionable returns since you trade a tiny bit of clearance for an equal amount of displaced geometry and wheel travel, and loss of torque.  That's the same for most rigs, but in the U.S., a large percentage of "off roaders" run 35 and up.  Here, 37's are "the sweet spot", so offroad offerings are now coming with 35" as an option from the factory, along with correct geometry and stout final drive ratios to turn the big wheels up sleep inclines. The new Ford Raptors come with 37" from the factory with correct geometry.  We don't like having to replace brand new suspension here just to be on par with another offroader's standard offering. For the Bronco, for example, the final drive ratio comes in different options upon ordering, so crawlers and towers can choose high ratios, and commuters can choose lower ratios for fuel efficiency.  That'd be nice in the Ineos. 

The Ineos is a great all-arounder.  There's no doubting that. It fills the gap in the market. I just hope it comes with more options in the U.S. later.  We can't even get the diesel engine for it's torque which we need more than most other countries, but rumor has it that it's coming in time. 

 

[Shaky]

Interesting that the American consumer is now seemingly wanting diesel more, whilst in Europe they want to get rid of it due to it being the devils work. A good Diesel engine is awesome imo but I have actually ordered petrol as I see it lasting longer or should I say being tolerated longer on the roads. 

 

[Ferrugenfish]

[QUOTE username=Shaky userid=8970976 postid=1332910948]Interesting that the American consumer is now seemingly wanting diesel more, whilst in Europe they want to get rid of it due to it being the devils work. A good Diesel engine is awesome imo but I have actually ordered petrol as I see it lasting longer or should I say being tolerated longer on the roads. [/QUOTE]

Diesel motors are a "mixed bag" over here too because of the relatively new requirement to use the DEF fluid/system, which degrades fuel economy, adds lots of weight, and is one more thing to break/fix.  But apparently it saves the planet, so it's a law. I'd probably get the gas version if it had as much torque as the diesel option (and if it came with an upgraded tranny like the diesel does). We do seem to be power hogs over here in the U.S.... but that might be explained by the steep inclines, the prevelence of towing large loads, and the really high elevations (significant power loss at high elevation that we have to account for). 

 

[Shaky]

High elevation in the UK isn’t a consideration as you are probably aware.  One thing I always found odd in the states was the size of the engines compared to the bhp output. Not in every case I know but the engines always seem to be huge 5, 6, 7 litres with the bhp of a 1.8 litre Audi engine. I know that equals a very under stressed engine (a positive) but is normally accompanied with huge fuel consumption (a negative). I wasn’t aware that you guys also had the diesel backlash as well. Some of the UK public are already moaning and damaging the big and unnecessary 4x4’s and pick-ups which you guys in the states consider midi sized I believe or small trucks. The UK’s roads just can’t take the size of them, and I speak from experience. I see hydrogen cars and filling stations are now a real life thing in the states and this interests me as I don’t think there are any in the UK at the moment 

 

[Ferrugenfish]

[QUOTE username=Shaky userid=8970976 postid=1332911331]High elevation in the UK isn’t a consideration as you are probably aware.  One thing I always found odd in the states was the size of the engines compared to the bhp output. Not in every case I know but the engines always seem to be huge 5, 6, 7 litres with the bhp of a 1.8 litre Audi engine. I know that equals a very under stressed engine (a positive) but is normally accompanied with huge fuel consumption (a negative). I see hydrogen cars and filling stations are now a real life thing in the states and this interests me as I don’t think there are any in the UK at the moment [/QUOTE]

Hehe indeed, though in the States we have recently switched to the smaller displacement vehicles and are going away from larger, inefficient rigs, generally speaking.  I think we did that after Europe because 1) our fuel is cheaper here than most places in the world and 2) it's cheaper to burn more gas in a big dumb motor than it is to develop and produce highly efficient motors with adequate output coming out of small displacement motors (when including the cost to develop, produce and buy the motor).  We also have a love affair with the V8 motor and high displacement because they sound and feel so good.  Tons of our cars, and even many of the trucks are now smaller efficient motors, but we we're being forced into it begrudgingly (when it comes to people who tow, race or rock crawl).  Daily drivers like the efficiency.... we all like efficiency, but "it's just not the same" as a big bore engine, and never will be. If you've ever smashed the petal down on a now-outdated 6 liter V8 gas engine, then got out and smashed the petal of an efficient, small displacement (but same HP) rig, the difference is in the experience and there's nothing quite like it. However our laws have gotten much more strict the last half dozen years, mandating significant increases in efficiency.  Those who want big bore motors get extra taxes... "pay to play". This efficiency has now finally reached the large trucks in our country, though only in the past couple years. There are fewer and fewer large bore motors being offered as many are being replaced by engines that sound so bad they're literally putting speakers inside and/or outside the rig to alter the sound lol... it's sad, but understandable. The "good ole days" of the big block motor are all but over, for the general vehicle customer. 

As for hydrogen, it hasn't really taken off yet here.  It doesn't seem quite ready, and there are more problems to solve.  It seems there is growth, and with new laws, and fossil fuels going away eventually, it's probably just a matter of time.  Infrastructure is not ready yet, but we do have Some stations.  I don't know a single person with a hydrogen rig, however I think Walmart just bought a ton of hydrogen fueled loaders. 

 

[Shaky]

I saw a guy on YouTube showing how he filled up his hydrogen car.  My jaw dropped as I thought it was still just developmental tbh. welcome to virtually the rest of the world when it comes to engine size. You guys have probably got lawn mowers with bigger engines than the vast majority of Brit cars ? 

 

[Ferrugenfish]

[QUOTE username=Shaky userid=8970976 postid=1332911655]I saw a guy on YouTube showing how he filled up his hydrogen car.  My jaw dropped as I thought it was still just developmental tbh. welcome to virtually the rest of the world when it comes to engine size. You guys have probably got lawn mowers with bigger engines than the vast majority of Brit cars ? [/QUOTE]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzVBpddpK2k

 

[DaveB]

[QUOTE username=emax userid=8900646 postid=1332901301]He cleverly has yesterday announced a "Premiere" at 9:00 AM today.

He hasn't of course not yet driven it by himself. But I am anyway curious what he has to tell:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTDVWaLJfM8 [/QUOTE] He amazes me on his judgements and statements considering he has never driven one. 
He is also comparing against his ideal 4WD which is a mythical beast that doesn’t exist without huge modifications. 
If they did make what he is talking about I certainly wouldn’t be interested in it. 

 

[Davman]

There is no motor car company that will provide the car that he is after, for the kind of work that he is doing - that is why there is aftermarket providers - whenever they come onboard. I certainly am not going to spend $100K on a car that is setup to do rock hopping.  That is why you buy a beat up 80 Series Cruiser.

Whilst he does make a lot of good points, I think he just after LIKES and VIEWS at the moment - trying to provide some kind of content for his channel.  This is what all Youtubers/Content creators have to do, trying to create controversy so more people watch and comment on their videos, and hence watch more videos on their channel, hence fund his offroad lifestyle.

However, I think he does make some errors in his report, which perhaps does show off some of the intent of his making the video, and perhaps a little bias.
If you wanted an overlander, why would you start with the Fieldmaster edition?  He then starts specking up the Fieldmaster edition "without any luxuries" and ends up at $129K. The Fieldmaster is the luxury edition!!   If you wanted an overlander, and wanted to start with a special edition, you would start with the Trialmaster edition which already has most of the features that I am sure he has ticked the boxes for. 

Interestingly too, if you read some of the Youtube comments, the motoring journalist bloke he starts talking about - who agrees with him 100%, actually makes a comment clarifying some of the comments made in the video.

 

[ADVAW8S]

He must have been taking heavy fire and deleting comments.  He has pinned a comment about the critisim that he recieved.  

 

[RTG]

Not sure whether the "foot rest" of the drivers side is really an issue. Just a little larger than my Range rover's. I always drive with left foot on the foot rest.

 

 

[DaveB]

He is over 6 foot (6’3”??) so that may be making the problem worse, however as he has never sat in the drivers seat of a demo unit let alone a production vehicle it is chasing shadows. 
I rarely wear boots, unless I have my safety boots on for work, which I usually change out of before driving away. 

 

[DaveB]

[QUOTE username=Davman userid=8961117 postid=1332912610]There is no motor car company that will provide the car that he is after, for the kind of work that he is doing - that is why there is aftermarket providers - whenever they come onboard. I certainly am not going to spend $100K on a car that is setup to do rock hopping.  That is why you buy a beat up 80 Series Cruiser.

Whilst he does make a lot of good points, I think he just after LIKES and VIEWS at the moment - trying to provide some kind of content for his channel.  This is what all Youtubers/Content creators have to do, trying to create controversy so more people watch and comment on their videos, and hence watch more videos on their channel, hence fund his offroad lifestyle.

However, I think he does make some errors in his report, which perhaps does show off some of the intent of his making the video, and perhaps a little bias.
If you wanted an overlander, why would you start with the Fieldmaster edition?  He then starts specking up the Fieldmaster edition "without any luxuries" and ends up at $129K. The Fieldmaster is the luxury edition!!   If you wanted an overlander, and wanted to start with a special edition, you would start with the Trialmaster edition which already has most of the features that I am sure he has ticked the boxes for. 

Interestingly too, if you read some of the Youtube comments, the motoring journalist bloke he starts talking about - who agrees with him 100%, actually makes a comment clarifying some of the comments made in the video.




[/QUOTE]
Surely in his case he should start with the utility vehicle or base 5 seat station wagon. 
He clearly can add all the other stuff he needs and he would be picking the vehicle up for $85K plus ORC
Andrew St Pierre -White should be doing the same. 
Same goes for wanting 47” tyres on 22” mags with 17” lift kits and 470 litre fuel tanks. On what planet was Ineos ever going to be able to supply these options?

 

[RTG]

I'm 6'6".....and didn't even consider it on the RR, until it was raised on the forums. Push the seat back further and we'll suck it up.?

 

[grenadierboy]

RTG - the issue is (hope was!) 3 fold.

1. The width of the foot rest is huge - it's probably double the width it needs to be if it was only for a shoe but it is also permits the placement of the exhaust manifold under the floor and because of that;
2. the position of brake and accelerator pedal are slightly further to the right of where most would be, meaning that as you sit behind the wheel your legs are slightly twisted to the right and also,
3. the gap between the footrest and the brake pedal is narrow making it slightly awkward to rest your foot between the two

When I sat in the prototype drivers seat last year I felt the rest was too high. I mentioned to the INEOS rep about the setup of the foot rest and  he said - "yeah we know that but it will be sorted before production" 

Fingers crossed but the current configurator still has it.

 

[cheswick]

This is from ASPW's video:



I think I sat in this same prototype vehicle myself when it was in the southern highlands, and to be honest I didn't find it to be a problem at all. Im 6'1" and was wearing a pair of workboots that probably make me 6'2". I was able to move the seat back, have my left and right leg at reasonable extension and sit straight and comfortably. I know everyone is is different but just wanted to offer my perspective.

 

[grenadierboy]

Probably the same prototype I sat in.

There was a lot going on that day and it's difficult to take everything in about an exciting new car, especially as I only had a few minutes inside each time it came back from a test run.

Nevertheless, my feet position and the size of the footrest was one thing that caught my attention.

I like to drive with my left foot resting between brake and foot rest but when I tried it in the Grenadier the gap was too narrow for my boot so I had to put my left foot under the brake and then I felt that both my legs a little too much to the right.

Maybe the seat was too forward (or too upright I am 5.10") but the foot rest also felt a little high for my right leg.

Anyway - as I said, I mentioned it to the rep and he obviously had previous feedback from others given his quick response.

 

[ECrider]

[QUOTE username=Shaky userid=8970976 postid=1332907462]I think the phrase “you can’t please all of the people” is something we can all agree with. One thing that is a massive compromise to me is, it isn’t long enough in the rear to get my gun slip in (with gun), and even when I put the back seat down I am left with a massive step. There is nothing that is going to fix that for me !

Whilst the author of this article would probably be not interested in my woes I am not bothered about having a suspension or tyres on my vehicle that allow me to drive over obstacles the size of a small car….horses for courses. I know I said that they must need some different mechanics in the outback and that was said tongue in cheek. In the UK my nearest IG dealer is 15 mins up the road from me and is said to be a good one as well. I have another one 40 mins away in the other direction, again something not a concern to me, but I accept Australia is a big place and as said you can’t really expect an IG dealer to pop up in the middle of the outback just in case one happens to break down. I am confident there are plenty of good mechanics and due to the area they are experts in 4x4 vehicles as well. Ineos have already stated they are going to release specs and manuals etc. 

I don’t remember it being mentioned here but the engine choice has come into some criticism, what I would point out is that there are plenty of Landrover specialists who are very good and they fit the same BMW Diesel engine as an upgrade and there are plenty of LR owners who want this conversion. They all seem to think it’s good enough. 

Ineos in my mind have designed a vehicle that they want to be reliable, sturdy, comfortable and as it comes off the production line will be suitable for the vast majority of people for their lifestyle, needs and capable of towing a fair amount, over a varied type of terrain without actually being too specialist. I for one will almost certainly be able to drive that vehicle without ever having to upgrade any of it. The gun slip situation I will have to figure out. (Without releasing a video explaining why the IG is not the perfect off roader).[/QUOTE] Shaky - the gun slip issue. I suppose you must have a pickup or something with a long load bed. I've got a D4 and cannot even lie a rifle flat let alone some of the shotguns and the D4 has a big boot (think 100cms depth). I just lie them up stock down diagonally and bungy barrels to top of the dog cage. I'm sure you'll find a way but this works good for me.   

 

[Shaky]

[QUOTE username=ECrider userid=8975784 postid=1332913774]  Shaky - the gun slip issue. I suppose you must have a pickup or something with a long load bed. I've got a D4 and cannot even lie a rifle flat let alone some of the shotguns and the D4 has a big boot (think 100cms depth). I just lie them up stock down diagonally and bungy barrels to top of the dog cage. I'm sure you'll find a way but this works good for me.   [/QUOTE]

You are correct I currently have an Amarok with draws in the back and then the dog box on the top of that. In the UK you will see the almost same configuration at nearly every shoot going.  I can currently put a 32” barrelled shotgun in its slip straight into the draws no problems. Bizarrely the method you use is what I was thinking I will have to do when using the IG.  I thought about some sort of bracket attached to the dog cage that will allow the guns to sit up and possibly over the back seat at about 35-40 degrees. It won’t be a massive problem as the other half has now stated that she wants the Amarok so looks like both can be used if needed. I am happy with that as I still like the truck and will save getting the new one messed up ? 

Would I get many YouTube views if I sit down now and make a clip with the title “The Grenadier is the worst 4x4 I have never driven or even sat in the drivers seats of” ? 

 

[emax]

> is the worst 4x4 I have never driven

? ?