Turning radius improvement with simple bolt-stop mod?

[C-Mack]

Steering stops were put there for a reason by the designers. It doesn't seem advisable to mess with them as they obviously felt a hard mechanical stop was needed to either protect a specific component of the steering system or front axle.

It could also be for added support/protection off-road, if one of the front wheels hits an object hard enough and the wheel is forced to pivot fully with the momentum and weight of the entire vehicle behind it a fixed stop could prevent damage to vital components such as hub axle joints or the steering box from going beyond it's safe amount of travel/rotation.

I'm sure folks who have made changes to their stops will be fine but having them there as an additional safety measure seems the more prudent thing to do.

 

[Dokatd]

Steering stops were put there for a reason by the designers. It doesn't seem advisable to mess with them as they obviously felt a hard mechanical stop was needed to either protect a specific component of the steering system or front axle.

It could also be for added support/protection off-road, if one of the front wheels hits an object hard enough and the wheel is forced to pivot fully with the momentum and weight of the entire vehicle behind it a fixed stop could prevent damage to vital components such as hub axle joints or the steering box from going beyond it's safe amount of travel/rotation.

I'm sure folks who have made changes to their stops will be fine but having them there as an additional safety measure seems the more prudent thing to do.

Steering stops were put there for a reason by the designers. It doesn't seem advisable to mess with them as they obviously felt a hard mechanical stop was needed to either protect a specific component of the steering system or front axle.

It could also be for added support/protection off-road, if one of the front wheels hits an object hard enough and the wheel is forced to pivot fully with the momentum and weight of the entire vehicle behind it a fixed stop could prevent damage to vital components such as hub axle joints or the steering box from going beyond it's safe amount of travel/rotation.

I'm sure folks who have made changes to their stops will be fine but having them there as an additional safety measure seems the more prudent thing to do.

You aren’t wrong but you aren’t right. Steering stops are found on virtually every vehicle on the road in some form or another. They are used to achieve different things based on the vehicles application and build. Most of the time on trucks like the Grenadier they are to keep tires from rubbing. Yet the grenadier in stock form cannot even hit its own steering stops due to some design flaw. Now look at the original defender as a comparison, it used the stops for two things. First it used them to keep tires from rubbing the radius arms and second they were there to protect the CV axles from excessive angles as they get weak when steered heavily. This isn’t the case on the Grenadier as it had Double Cardan axles. Now certainly they can get delicate at certain angles, but they can far exceed a typical CV in practice. Yet the grenadier has some steering bind well before the DC axle even meets the max angle of a CV shaft.

Regardless, the steering stops are more or less in the Grenadier to prevent the tires from contacting other components and only secondarily there to prevent exceeding an axle components max angle. So adjusting the stops is fine so long as it’s being done properly.

Don’t be one one of those people that thinks Ineos, Magna etc doesn’t make compromises or mistakes etc. Automotive companies have to make vehicles that work for as many people as they can. In doing this they almost never maximize the vehicles performance. And this is even more true on a new build such as the Grenadier. They are taking baby steps to make sure they succeed and sometimes they fail miserably such as they did with the entire steering system on the Grenadier.

 

[255/85]

They are taking baby steps to make sure they succeed and sometimes they fail miserably such as they did with the entire steering system on the Grenadier.

That's a pretty strong assertion. I don't have any substantive issues with the steering. In fact, it feels completely normal for a truck. I guess I'm not very fond of the steering wheel but it's not offensive or a miserable fail.

 

[HogRider]

As a follow-up to a previous post of mine where I was willing to adjust the steering stops on the axle to get a little better turning radius...

Well I don't think the poor turning radius has anything to do with the steering stops; contrary to what others seem to say.

I tested my IG using the Offroad mode steering angle information. Before touching the stops I got 34 degrees with the left turn at full lock and 30 degrees with the right turn. According to info from Rok Dr's IG manual, table 10, nominal inner wheel steering angle should be 30 <CORRECTION> 33 degrees.

Removing the stops completely did not change the readings. Removing the steering stabilizer did not change the numbers. There is a always a gap between the stop bolt head and the axle stop of about 10mm even at full lock.
There must be something other than the physical stops limiting turning radius. Is the body control module doing it!!!??? Maybe something else in the steering set up?

I'm glad some have found an improvement, but I don't see any effect on my truck. Sad...

A few weeks, I did the same exact test, and mine at deadlock, mine was also not bumping aganist the steering stop. I wonder why ours is different vs others who were able to do this mod and get more turning radius.

 

[Dokatd]

That's a pretty strong assertion. I don't have any substantive issues with the steering. In fact, it feels completely normal for a truck. I guess I'm not very fond of the steering wheel but it's not offensive or a miserable fail.

Sounds like yours is ok, but mine and every other one I have driven is not. There is nothing “Truck” about it. They’re just weird and all to their own in terms of handling, at least until you change a few parts.

This is coming from a guy that owns and drives 4 different models of Unimog, a Volvo C303 a Gwagon etc etc. Non of those and especially domestic trucks drive like a stock IG. Heck my old ‘94 D90 had better steering than my IG had before I changed it all.

 

[anand]

Sounds like yours is ok, but mine and every other one I have driven is not. There is nothing “Truck” about it. They’re just weird and all to their own in terms of handling, at least until you change a few parts.

This is coming from a guy that owns and drives 4 different models of Unimog, a Volvo C303 a Gwagon etc etc. Non of those and especially domestic trucks drive like a stock IG. Heck my old ‘94 D90 had better steering than my IG had before I changed it all.

Interesting... mine feels very similar (in steering) to the only other solid front axle vehicle I've spent a ton of time driving, a F450

 

[Dokatd]

Interesting... mine feels very similar (in steering) to the only other solid front axle vehicle I've spent a ton of time driving, a F450

Interesting to say the least. Mine like seemingly all others did not self center effectively at all. It would slightly come back to center slowly but would never point straight down the road. It was also dodgy due to the lack of self centering combined with the excessive slop in the steering. So any defect in the road would lead to white knuckle driving at any significant speeds.

I have never driven a truck that didn’t self center pretty effectively. That includes chassis like the GMC Kodiak etc. I even had an early Bronco with seemingly half a turn free play in the steering wheel that was more comfortable to drive at speed.

Certainly if you have smooth clean highways the IG does “ok” in stock form, but driving on various quality highways mine was all over the place. South Texas and Front Range Colorado are not great with the IG in my opinion. So much so I almost took it back to the dealer. But after a few mods it’s mostly living up to what I had hoped for.

 

[Kevin Mokracek]

I hated the steering for about a week. After a week of driving it I got used to it and now it doesn’t even cross my mind. In fact today I was driving home after a few days of off roading in the Inyo Mountains and was thinking how great the steering was both on but especially off road. For me it simply became a non issue.

 

[nuclearmonkey]

Interesting to say the least. Mine like seemingly all others did not self center effectively at all. It would slightly come back to center slowly but would never point straight down the road. It was also dodgy due to the lack of self centering combined with the excessive slop in the steering. So any defect in the road would lead to white knuckle driving at any significant speeds.

I have never driven a truck that didn’t self center pretty effectively. That includes chassis like the GMC Kodiak etc. I even had an early Bronco with seemingly half a turn free play in the steering wheel that was more comfortable to drive at speed.

Certainly if you have smooth clean highways the IG does “ok” in stock form, but driving on various quality highways mine was all over the place. South Texas and Front Range Colorado are not great with the IG in my opinion. So much so I almost took it back to the dealer. But after a few mods it’s mostly living up to what I had hoped for.

By ‘mods’, are you referring to King shocks and stabilizer?

 

[Dokatd]

By ‘mods’, are you referring to King shocks and stabilizer?

Stabilizer and caster angle at stock height. I went through a few steps to get to where I am now.

The Kings weren’t really necessary until after the lift and were mostly to control body roll which caused a bit of rear steer due to the short rear axle links. Plus I prefer a firmer ride but still soft springs rates if that makes any sense.

 

[Dokatd]

So here is a follow up. I previously checked my steering stop contact by turning the truck and having someone hold the steering wheel. I dont recall if this was with or without the stock steering stabilizer or without a stabilizer at all. But I certainly did not see contact, not even close. Since I have put several thousand miles on the truck and now of course have the Fox ATS on the truck.

So I grabbed some yellow gear marking compound I had laying around and applied it to the non adjustable side of the steering stops. Then I drove around the neighborhood a bit. Now the steering stops most certainly touch. Well at least one did. The other was blocked by the steering stabilizer fully compressing and acting as a stop. This is due to the early adoption method of using the stock FOX mounting bracket pushed all the way up to the stock IG mount. So the stock IG mount on the tie rod needs to go at this point. I will likely just fabricate a new well on piece to properly mount the FOX stabilizer. Once that’s fixed I will most certainly make some adjustments to the steering stops and verify if I’m still hitting them or if something else is binding.

 

[Atharv95]

Dealer: The procedure involves working against the steering damper and the edge of the servo pump, which exerts more force on certain components than the manufacturer designed for. I can't predict whether this will cause long-term damage, but out of caution, I wouldn’t recommend using this method regularly—only as a last resort in emergencies.


Ineos: Our team conducted a thorough vehicle inspection and strongly advises against this practice. It’s essential to let the steering reach its stop point naturally and avoid applying excessive force to the steering wheel. During the inspection, we observed signs of stress on the steering components from the added strain caused by forcing the steering.

 

[MileHigh]

Dealer: The procedure involves working against the steering damper and the edge of the servo pump, which exerts more force on certain components than the manufacturer designed for. I can't predict whether this will cause long-term damage, but out of caution, I wouldn’t recommend using this method regularly—only as a last resort in emergencies.


Ineos: Our team conducted a thorough vehicle inspection and strongly advises against this practice. It’s essential to let the steering reach its stop point naturally and avoid applying excessive force to the steering wheel. During the inspection, we observed signs of stress on the steering components from the added strain caused by forcing the steering.

Besides not rushing out to change the stops, I’m not sure what to do with that information. I know that you can turn the wheel and as you start to turn around the radius, you can add more turn in. Considering it’s all assisted I’m not sure if that is what they mean?
I assume that last little bit of turning was because the wheels and the suspension architecture have a bit more movement in them as they turn.

 

[Sagamisan]

I’ve seen a couple of threads about modifying the bolt stop to reduce the turning radius. It seems some of them are a couple of years old. I found a recent one on Facebook group and he says he has used it for some time.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1028393128694228

View: https://www.facebook.com/jbrindell/videos/1028393128694228/?idorvanity=646932539965726


Anyone done the mod and got some miles on it? Any official word on it? Kind of reminds me of the caster mod.

Why would Ineos hobble the IG with the turning radius if it were that simple to ‘fix’? Stability at speed I don’t think is the issue- it still would have a typical SUV turning radius, not a ‘small’ one?

To me the two issues would be
-wear on the drive shafts?
-The brake lines or other lines not being long enough at full lock and full suspension travel?

Heck, even half a mod would be interesting. On the turning radius, with standard gear, does anyone else’s feel like you turn as much as you can, and then when you start moving, you can turn tighter?

Any new thoughts or people reporting on long term testing?

YES!!
It does feel like when you turn and move you can turn a bit more.
if I can approve the turning radius would be very happy with this vehicle

 

[Sagamisan]

Steering stops were put there for a reason by the designers. It doesn't seem advisable to mess with them as they obviously felt a hard mechanical stop was needed to either protect a specific component of the steering system or front axle.

It could also be for added support/protection off-road, if one of the front wheels hits an object hard enough and the wheel is forced to pivot fully with the momentum and weight of the entire vehicle behind it a fixed stop could prevent damage to vital components such as hub axle joints or the steering box from going beyond it's safe amount of travel/rotation.

I'm sure folks who have made changes to their stops will be fine but having them there as an additional safety measure seems the more prudent thing to do.

never thought about it that way
yeah maybe the engineers “capped” the turning radius for a reason

 

[255/85]

never thought about it that way
yeah maybe the engineers “capped” the turning radius for a reason

That's what I'm getting from @Atharv95's post. The steering pump is strong enough to break/bend things if you keep banging up against the stops as a daily practice. That strength is needed to deal with challenging terrain but when an irresistible force meets an immoveable object something has to give.

Dealer: The procedure involves working against the steering damper and the edge of the servo pump, which exerts more force on certain components than the manufacturer designed for. I can't predict whether this will cause long-term damage, but out of caution, I wouldn’t recommend using this method regularly—only as a last resort in emergencies.


Ineos: Our team conducted a thorough vehicle inspection and strongly advises against this practice. It’s essential to let the steering reach its stop point naturally and avoid applying excessive force to the steering wheel. During the inspection, we observed signs of stress on the steering components from the added strain caused by forcing the steering.