Transmission variance between petrol and diesel

[DenisM]

ZF recommends a transmission oil change every eight years or 50,000 miles, and that's a job you can tackle at home. For this DIY, we are using a service kit for BMWs. Although the kit is for the BMW 8HP45 and 8HP70, you can apply the same basic process to servicing every ZF 8-speed, regardless of the make and model.Oct 18, 2021

Apart from draining/refilling the pan, does the DIY kit enable a full oil change including pump and torque converter?

 

[CountyV8]

Apart from draining/refilling the pan, does the DIY kit enable a full oil change including pump and torque converter?

Think you have to use a power flush machine to do that DIY can only drain the pan.

 

[bemax]

As posted elsewhere on the forum:

The gas engine (B58) gets the 8HP51 version of the ZF 8-speed, which has a max torque rating of 500 Nm or 369 lb. ft. of torque.

The diesel engine (B57) gets the 8HP76 version of the ZF 8-speed, which has a max torque rating of 750 Nm, or 553 lb. ft. of torque.

From the UK brochure:

View attachment 7799862

The lower torque rating of the 8HP51 becomes a concern for some people, who have expressed concern about the power of the B58 in the Grenadier, which is 282 HP and 332 lb. ft of torque; the Grenadier is heavy (5,875 pounds for the gas version), and some people feel that it might be under-powered. Note that concerns around this topic vary considerably based on the elevation a person lives at, the intended use for the vehicle, and a person's expectations. A common solution with a forced induction engine is to tune it for more power (it is typically very easy to tune forced induction engines). However, the max torque rating of the 8HP51 is just 11% higher than the existing torque output of the B58, so there isn't much headroom there. Many people are not concerned about the power of the B58 in the Grenadier, and so are not concerned about the difference between the two transmissions. That's a synopsis of multiple discussions on this forum on this topic.

See table below for a summary of the ZF 8-speed transmissions and their applications:

View attachment 7799860

There is a simple solution to all of that discussion. Just drive a Defender TDi, TD5 or TD4 for three months before the Grenadier is delivered.
That should sort out any problem regarding power, torque and ergonomics

 

[bigleonski]

There is a simple solution to all of that discussion. Just drive a Defender TDi, TD5 or TD4 for three months before the Grenadier is delivered.
That should sort out any problem regarding power, torque and ergonomics

Yeah I hope to sell my 200 a few months beforehand for the opposite reason.

 

[WhiteBear]

There is a simple solution to all of that discussion. Just drive a Defender TDi, TD5 or TD4 for three months before the Grenadier is delivered.
That should sort out any problem regarding power, torque and ergonomics

I drive a Defender 90 Tdi since 16 years. It is enough now, I am getting old and want some comfort for long distances.

 

[emax]

As an engineer, I generally believe that there's an engineering solution to _any_ kind of problem

Sounds good.

Do you have a technical solution for money shortages?


PS: Oops, Tazzie was faster ...

 

[bemax]

I drive a Defender 90 Tdi since 16 years. It is enough now, I am getting old and want some comfort for long distances.

And you won’t have any problems with the lack of power, won’t you?

 

[emax]

Lithium Thionyl Chloride battery packs and Lithium Thionyl hybrid pulse capacitors in battery powered magnetic flowmeters

I thought they were for flux capacitors.

 

[emax]

It's a little early, but what is the recommended interval for these transmissions?

Depends on who you listen to.

With automatic gearboxes, automakers say "lifetime oil fill, no maintenance." That's better for marketing.
ZF says 100'000 km. That's better for the transmission and for ZF.

There is a video from Christian & Vera (LR Time) which confirm this.

One reason could be that an oil change for the current ZF auto gearboxes is quite expensive: A new oil pan including filter and oil costs about 230 Euro - if you buy it yourself. If you buy it from your dealer, it's way more. And changing the oil is also difficult and critical as well. You have to follow a precise procedure with temperature control. If mechanics are lazy or unmotivated, they can damage more than an oil change can save. So for dealer shops, it may be safer to say "lifetime oil fill" than to let mechanics ruin the transmission.

For me, ZF is the reference. And Christian. No matter what the dealer says.

See the video of Christian and Vera.

 

[Wayneos]

Coming from a manual transmission (the grenadier will be my first auto) what a great video. Some interesting service notes that I took away- having to replace the entire oil pan as the filter is built in, and the method for checking the oil level, and very specific oil requirements.

I'm thinking of adding one of these too. Stronger, additional fluid capacity, cooling fins on the aluminium, drain plug. No more wasted plastic crap. Only need to replace the filter and gasket.

2014-2022 w/ ZF-8 Speed Transmission Heavy-Duty Cast Aluminum Deep Transmission Pan

Transmission Pan - Heavy-Duty Cast Aluminum - 8HP70/8HP75 Features:Cast-aluminum construction Increased heat dissipation Reduced oil temperatures Increased fluid capacity Stainless steel drain plug Includes replaceable filter 1/8 NPT tempe

ppepower.com

If space is an issue then..

2010-2024 w/ ZF-8 Speed Heavy-Duty Cast Aluminum Transmission Pan

PPE Heavy-Duty Cast Aluminum Transmission Pan, ZF 8-speed transmission, permanent replacement pan, Holds 1.0 extra quarts, high-strength aluminum, external cooling fins, optimal heat dissipation.

ppepower.com

 

[DCPU]

So is that going to hang down lower?

 

[Wayneos]

So is that going to hang down lower?

So long as it doesn't touch any of the protective plating and there's still plenty of room, all good. Otherwise the standard non deep pan should fit with plenty of room to spare.

I'll be measuring before I install anything of course!

 

[Krabby]

So long as it doesn't touch any of the protective plating and there's still plenty of room, all good. Otherwise the standard non deep pan should fit with plenty of room to spare.

I'll be measuring before I install anything of course!

Measure once, cut once, ef up, buy new, cut again.

 

[MileHigh]

And how frequently will be related to how hot you run it. Heavy towing in hot weather is probably the biggest assault on transmission oil, but stop & go driving is also bad. Its also tough on a transmission to shift between forward and reverse if the vehicle is moving. But I've only owned manual transmissions, so take that with a grain of salt...

High and hot here in the summer in Colorado, with long up hill and downhills (with engine braking). That’s why I’d want to add cooling capacity before adding more power- and then making sure that it keeps its power at altitude (12,000ft) rather than adding power at only 6000ft…

Here’s hoping in that the US looks like it will get 2024 models, that the IG gets an 8HP70 option. I’m guessing that might mean new emissions/MPG testing at the very least and maybe even crash?

I don’t understand why they went with the 50 version, unless this is how BMW ‘sells’ the engine- the Toyota Supra is set up the same way. It seems every other SUV- including BMWs own SUVs with that engine, use the 8HP70. Jeep Wrangler and Grand Cherokee also.

Considering that many of us are buying this as our ‘forever truck’ and value longentivity over on-the-edge-engineering, the choice seems odd.

 

[emax]

The original gearbox oil pan has a built in filter and has to be replaced together with the included filter upon an oil change.

If this oil pan doesn't have the filter, how is the filter then fitted/replaced?
Does such a filter exist as a single part at all?

PS: Have just seen there is a replacable filter.

 

[Eric]

High and hot here in the summer in Colorado, with long up hill and downhills (with engine braking). That’s why I’d want to add cooling capacity before adding more power- and then making sure that it keeps its power at altitude (12,000ft) rather than adding power at only 6000ft…

Here’s hoping in that the US looks like it will get 2024 models, that the IG gets an 8HP70 option. I’m guessing that might mean new emissions/MPG testing at the very least and maybe even crash?

I don’t understand why they went with the 50 version, unless this is how BMW ‘sells’ the engine- the Toyota Supra is set up the same way. It seems every other SUV- including BMWs own SUVs with that engine, use the 8HP70. Jeep Wrangler and Grand Cherokee also.

Considering that many of us are buying this as our ‘forever truck’ and value longentivity over on-the-edge-engineering, the choice seems odd.

I presuming that it was a Magna Steyr decision.

 

[emax]

additional fluid capacity

Sounds good, but may bring problems with it.

The amount of oil is a critical variable for the ZF gear box. You'll have to recalculate it correctly.

 

[PanoramaJJ]

I see the different ZF-transmissions. But I cannot recognize any problem.
If you drive a engine (petrol) - then you will have a smooth ride - the power comes when your engine gets at higher speed - and the ZF-transmission will work without any problems - I´m sure for that (ZF = Zahnradfabrik Friedrichshafen, it´s a german company with very, very good products!).
If you drive a diesel engine - then the torque starts almost emidiatly with starting the engine - and the torque is heavily (550 NM at 1.250 U/min, in this case) - so you better take the ZF-transmission one size bigger. O.K.
And what exactly now is the problem?
(okay, I am not objective - perhaps, maybe because I will get a diesel.... ? )

 

[jeremy_matrix]

It's a little early, but what is the recommended interval for these transmissions?

"Lifetime" as they call it. Which is not Lifetime of the vehicle.
We translate this into Lifetime of the original warranty, so 4yr/50k(that's 50,000mi for you across the pond ).

I have always known that official dealers or service companies push maintenance intervals, they earn money on it.
Car manufacturers will advice maintenance periods according to the market, but always with a safety margin.
Leasing companies will always lengthen the maintenance intervals, because after year 4 (in Belgium at least) they sell the car.

The maintenance manual of my Suzuki Grand Vitara says: oil change every 20000 km. My service company always puts a sticker: 15000 km.
I change oil between 20000 and 25000 km because I have a lot of motorway (highway) trips (hate it). The reals 4X4 or heavy mountain is limited to less than 500 km a year I guess (and I love it).

My car is 10 years old and has some 210000 km. Motor hasn't been a problem.

I disagree Jean. Mercedes for example is now at 20k(20,000mi) oil change intervals. Full synthetic engine oil is NOT that good, especially on a diesel engine. The additive package in the oil cannot last that long and still protect well? So why do they recommend 20k? Well, possibly it extends from when they were offering "free" service packages when you bought a new vehicle, to try to attract new/more buyers. They used to recommend 10k oil changes, now it's 20k. Porsche is 15k for some engines. Still too long! And Porsche is at 160k for tranny/F&R diff/t-case fluids on a 2012 Cayenne;

Additional Maintenance Every 160,000 Miles Or Every 16 Years​

• Change front differential oil
• Change rear differential oil
• Change transfer case oil: (Cayenne V6, Diesel, S Hybrid)
• Change manual transmission oil
• Change Tiptronic transmission oil and ATF filter

Maybe they're hoping that they get more powertrain replacements down the road, for those who continue going to the dealership even after warranty expires?
We recommend cutting dealership/manufacturer recommendations in half at least, all depending on driving situations. So for LOF's(oil changes) on a Mercedes diesel, that's at least every 10k (and that's really more for those driving lots of highway). For someone driving 1mi to work and back every day (as that's severe duty as the engine never gets up to temp and therefore contaminants never burn off), 5k. Most clients split the difference based on their mixed driving and change engine oil/filter every 7.5k.


Back to the IG petrol getting the ZF 8HP51, I am very surprised by this. I was certain it'd be coming with the 8HP70 at least, due to other SUV's like X5/RRS/JGC and larger sedans that have the 8HP70. Heck, even the Audi A4 has a larger tranny (8HP55), and it's a street car that weighs less and will not typically be put under as severe duty as an IG might! WTH Magna?!?! ;

8HP51 (3rd Generation)	500 N⋅m (370 lb⋅ft)	500 N⋅m (370 lb⋅ft)	5th Generation Toyota Supra (A90), BMW 3 Series (G20), BMW 2 Series (G42), Jaguar XE 20d RWD (2019–), BMW Z4 (G29)
8HP55	550 N⋅m (410 lb⋅ft)	550 N⋅m (410 lb⋅ft)	Audi S4/S5 (B9), Audi A4 B8 2012– North America (US)
8HP70	700 N⋅m (520 lb⋅ft)	700 N⋅m (520 lb⋅ft)	BMW 7 Series (F01/F02), BMW X5 50i (E70), BMW 5 series (F10/11), BMW 3 Series (F30) 330d and 335d, Chrysler 300 V8 (2015–), Dodge Durango V8, Iveco Daily, Jaguar F-Type (V6 and V8), Jaguar XE 35t, Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7L 8-cyl Engine Code [T] EZH (2014 -), Jeep Grand Cherokee 6.4L 8-cyl Engine Code [J] ESG (2014 -), Jeep Grand Cherokee V8, Grand Cherokee EcoDiesel (2014–2016), Ram 1500 V6, V8, & diesel, Range Rover Sport (2012), Rolls-Royce Phantom, Maserati Quattroporte (2013–), Dodge Charger V8 (2015–), Volkswagen Amarok V6 TDI 550, Dodge Challenger V8 (2015–), Aston Martin Vanquish (2015), Aston Martin Rapide S (2015),[17] Alpina B3 (F30/31), Alpina B4 (F32/33), Great Wall Haval H9, VW Crafter (longitudinal engine), MAN TGE (longitudinal engine)
8HP75 (2nd Generation)	750 N⋅m (550 lb⋅ft)	750 N⋅m (550 lb⋅ft)	Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio, Alfa Romeo Stelvio Quadrifoglio, Aston Martin DB11, Aston Martin V8 Vantage (2019), Alpina B5 (G30/31), BMW 5 series (G30/G31/F90), BMW X5 M (F85), BMW X6 M (F86), BMW 7 Series (G11/12),[18] BMW X5 (F15),[19] BMW X3 30D (G01), RAM 1500 (2019–), RAM 2500 (2019–), Jeep Grand Cherokee EcoDiesel (2017–), Jeep Wrangler EcoDiesel (2020–), Jeep Gladiator Ecodiesel (2021–), Jeep Wrangler 392 (2021–)
8HP76			Alpina B7 (G11/12),[20] BMW 3 Series M340dX (G20/21)

 

[DenisM]

I have read several reports that extended oil change intervals were being driven largely by Govt environmental regulations.... not necessarily solely by oil technology improvements ...