Americas The big May 17 Announcement / Pricing / Discussion thread.

[stickshifter]

Continued from previous post: However, I promise you this: quite a few Americans will request a refund on their reservation for an IG, and will instead, buy a pickup truck. Some will opt for a mid-size truck (Tacoma, Ranger, Gladiator, etc.), some will opt for a half-ton truck (Ford F150, etc.), and some will opt for a heavy duty truck (Ford F250, F350, Ram 2500, etc.) - depending on what they want to prioritize.

 

[Idahorocks]

We can have a whole other conversation about whether that increased power is truly necessary...

I think that is part of what bothers me is the sacrifice in aesthetics and utility for the sake of numbers most people don't need. But I would also submit the trend is also out of hand in cars and crossovers (BMW, Lexus, etc.).

 

[stickshifter]

I think that is part of what bothers me is the sacrifice in aesthetics and utility for the sake of numbers most people don't need.

Agreed.

 

[MileHigh]

I wrote in another thread about the horsepower that the original defenders had, and what they accomplished. And while I think that’s true, I think the weight of these vehicles has also increased. I would rather have a beefed up transmission and more cooling than more horsepower.

 

[Tazzieman]

They are, however, driven mostly by function - not form (or style). The taller grill increases cooling quite significantly, and as the power and towing wars continue between the big three truck manufacturers (Ford, Ram, Chevy), heavy duty trucks are producing more and more horsepower and torque, with higher and higher towing and payload capacities. These trucks need greater and greater cooling capacity. We can have a whole other conversation about whether that increased power is truly necessary...

But if you look at the capacities of these new trucks, you can see why the increased cooling

Until the last 2 or 3 years nobody in Australia referred to big 4wds as "trucks", but given their massiveness they are mini versions if what we have traditionally called a truck.
Now they are available over here I guess we just have to accept the ugliness. Mind you , we also have to look at Lexuses and new BMWs...

 

[Zimm]

I don't like taller grills either. They are terrible off road - preventing you from seeing much of anything - but they can also be a hazard in day-to-day driving, like in a parking lot.

They are, however, driven mostly by function - not form (or style). The taller grill increases cooling quite significantly, and as the power and towing wars continue between the big three truck manufacturers (Ford, Ram, Chevy), heavy duty trucks are producing more and more horsepower and torque, with higher and higher towing and payload capacities. These trucks need greater and greater cooling capacity. We can have a whole other conversation about whether that increased power is truly necessary...

But if you look at the capacities of these new trucks, you can see why the increased cooling is necessary:

• The Ford F350 diesel is now making around 1,100 lb/ft of torque (over 2x the diesel IG, and 3x the gas IG - just for comparison)
• Max towing for the diesel dually, using a gooseneck hitch, is 37,000 pounds (5x more than the IG)
• Max payload for the gas dually is almost 8,000 pounds (4x more than the IG)

Of course, most people aren't speccing their trucks to get these numbers, but still, these numbers are insane.

NOTE: I am only comparing it to the IG for perspective, and to give an indication of how much more cooling would be required - I am not suggesting that the IG and the Ford F350 are in the same class of vehicle. That would be dumb.

Consumption empty is about the same as 20 years ago, and loaded you no longer crawl up long grades at 40 mph. It's a numbers race, but it's not hurting anything. Honestly, I doubt I'd even notice the 1,100 over the 850 I have now, as I never have the hammer down all the way fully loaded as it is.

 

[Zimm]

Continued from previous post: However, I promise you this: quite a few Americans will request a refund on their reservation for an IG, and will instead, buy a pickup truck. Some will opt for a mid-size truck (Tacoma, Ranger, Gladiator, etc.), some will opt for a half-ton truck (Ford F150, etc.), and some will opt for a heavy duty truck (Ford F250, F350, Ram 2500, etc.) - depending on what they want to prioritize.

I have pickups, and I have suv's, but I've never purchased one over the other. I think a true'er statment would be, that those exiting here, and choosing a pickup, were not really in the market for this anyway, and were along for the ride. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[stickshifter]

...and takes regular, not high-octane, gas to boot <insert Tim Allen grunting>. Though I don't see 15 mpg unless it's falling off a cliff.

If you are "CryHavoc" those must be the "dogs of war"

Beautiful pups, and such a great breed.

 

[CryHavoc]

If you are "CryHavoc" those must be the "dogs of war"

Beautiful pups, and such a great breed.

Aye...and thank you! Who says Shakespeare is dead!?

Alexa, my Mal, is retired from tracking. Havoc, my aptly named Dutch Shepherd (should've named him Sprinkles, or Flower, or something to live up to), failed out of programs due to being an extreme wuss. So he's just my buddy who thinks ball is life.

 

[40man]

I have pickups, and I have suv's, but I've never purchased one over the other. I think a true'er statment would be, that those exiting here, and choosing a pickup, were not really in the market for this anyway, and were along for the ride. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I think some put down a deposit thinking the price would between a Jeep and Defender, and are switching things due to price shock. I personally do not like the new Defender.

The new Tacoma could be a sweet offroad setup for likely 50-60% of the price, and a pretty good track history for good quality.

If the majority of the issues aren't worked out by the time I can purchase, I may pivot to adding a Tacoma with camper shell, or potentially the rumored LC Prado that may come to USA. I really like the IG, and am 95% sure that is the way I am going, but I own a relatively low mileage built up 200 series and 60 series LCs in the stable already, so I am in no hurry to buy if issues aren't resolved.

I do think IG will work out the bugs, and I really hope it software and not harness or hardware related for those that already purchased. I may be a bit more sensitive on initial quality than some, as it appears my nearest warranty center will be 4 hours away based on the initial US map, and I just don't have time to deal with a lot of ongoing issues.

 

[stickshifter]

Aye...and thank you! Who says Shakespeare is dead!?

Alexa, my Mal, is retired from tracking. Havoc, my aptly named Dutch Shepherd (should've named him Sprinkles, or Flower, or something to live up to), failed out of programs due to being an extreme wuss. So he's just my buddy who thinks ball is life.

Ha ha! Not all dogs are cut out for hard work. Their personalities differ so much - just like kids! I actually though Havoc was a Mal as well - one of the all-black ones. Thanks for your PM - I wrote you back over there.

 

[Loc Nar]

I have pickups, and I have suv's, but I've never purchased one over the other. I think a true'er statment would be, that those exiting here, and choosing a pickup, were not really in the market for this anyway, and were along for the ride. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I'm also usually in this one versus the other camp, but I have to say that the 2024 Tacoma Trailhunter offering is interesting. I'd prefer to see an updated 4Runner take on that approach, but it's getting easier and easier to add a cabin to a truck to kit it out as a solid overland platform. So, with that plus four door crew cabs, the difference is shrinking a bit, at least from my point of view.

 

[IG425]

I think some put down a deposit thinking the price would between a Jeep and Defender, and are switching things due to price shock. I personally do not like the new Defender.

The new Tacoma could be a sweet offroad setup for likely 50-60% of the price, and a pretty good track history for good quality.

If the majority of the issues aren't worked out by the time I can purchase, I may pivot to adding a Tacoma with camper shell, or potentially the rumored LC Prado that may come to USA. I really like the IG, and am 95% sure that is the way I am going, but I own a relatively low mileage built up 200 series and 60 series LCs in the stable already, so I am in no hurry to buy if issues aren't resolved.

I do think IG will work out the bugs, and I really hope it software and not harness or hardware related for those that already purchased. I may be a bit more sensitive on initial quality than some, as it appears my nearest warranty center will be 4 hours away based on the initial US map, and I just don't have time to deal with a lot of ongoing issues.

I'm in a similar boat. I have a LR4 which does 95% of what the IG will. Yes it does not have a winch nor front lockers but has everything else plus more. The IG is well built and a great ride but for the $$ it does not provide comparative or additional value. I think Toyota is going to do well in the US in years to come. IG you missed the mark for the US market.

 

[stickshifter]

I'm in a similar boat. I have a LR4 which does 95% of what the IG will. Yes it does not have a winch nor front lockers but has everything else plus more. The IG is well built and a great ride but for the $$ it does not provide comparative or additional value. I think Toyota is going to do well in the US in years to come. IG you missed the mark for the US market.

If the new 4-Runner gets the iForce Max hybrid engine that makes 326 horsepower and 465 pound-feet of torque, it will do really well. Of course, we do not know anything about reliability of any new models (whether they be the Grenadier, the new 4-Runner, or any new model vehicle), but past models of the 4-Runner have been super-reliable for decades - and that is a legacy that the Grenadier does not have. Previous models of the 4-Runner have all been built in Japan, and they are really well-made. They feel more solid and better put-together than the Tacoma. Despite the fact that the 4-Runner has a 5-speed transmission, which first came out with the Dinosaurs, the 4-Runner is one of the best selling vehicles in its class in mountain communities all over the U.S. When we got back to the parking lot at a high trailhead a few days ago after some back-country skiing, there were 5 parked cars: a Jeep Wrangler, a Tacoma, and three 4-Runners.

If you combine the new power numbers with an 8-speed transmission (as in the 2024 Tacoma), the demonstrated reliability of past models, and the dealer network and ease of service for a Toyota, the 4-Runner should be a really good choice. The 4-Runner will be able to handle the trails that most people drive, will handle better on-road than the Grenadier, and will absolutely rip - and in the high mountains, this isn't just fun, it makes for a less stressful drive.

No - the 4-Runner is not the same vehicle as the Grenadier. While both vehicles have fully-boxed frames, the Grenadier's is thicker. But the biggest difference is that the 4-Runner has independent front suspension while the Grenadier has solid front axles. In addition, we have never seen a front locker in a factory-built 4-Runner. Off-road purists, hard-core off-roaders who prioritize articulation, and those who want an over-built rig, will prefer the Grenadier. But the trade-off is that the Grenadier will not handle as well on pavement, will be much slower, and both reliability, and ease of service remain unknowns. It will be interesting to see how Toyota prices the new 4-Runner, as that will be a big factor for many.

 

[40man]

If the new 4-Runner gets the iForce Max hybrid engine that makes 326 horsepower and 465 pound-feet of torque, it will do really well. Of course, we do not know anything about reliability of any new models (whether they be the Grenadier, the new 4-Runner, or any new model vehicle), but past models of the 4-Runner have been super-reliable for decades - and that is a legacy that the Grenadier does not have. Previous models of the 4-Runner have all been built in Japan, and they are really well-made. They feel more solid and better put-together than the Tacoma. Despite the fact that the 4-Runner has a 5-speed transmission, which first came out with the Dinosaurs, the 4-Runner is one of the best selling vehicles in its class in mountain communities all over the U.S. When we got back to the parking lot at a high trailhead a few days ago after some back-country skiing, there were 5 parked cars: a Jeep Wrangler, a Tacoma, and three 4-Runners.

If you combine the new power numbers with an 8-speed transmission (as in the 2024 Tacoma), the demonstrated reliability of past models, and the dealer network and ease of service for a Toyota, the 4-Runner should be a really good choice. The 4-Runner will be able to handle the trails that most people drive, will handle better on-road than the Grenadier, and will absolutely rip - and in the high mountains, this isn't just fun, it makes for a less stressful drive.

No - the 4-Runner is not the same vehicle as the Grenadier. While both vehicles have fully-boxed frames, the Grenadier's is thicker. But the biggest difference is that the 4-Runner has independent front suspension while the Grenadier has solid front axles. In addition, we have never seen a front locker in a factory-built 4-Runner. Off-road purists, hard-core off-roaders who prioritize articulation, and those who want an over-built rig, will prefer the Grenadier. But the trade-off is that the Grenadier will not handle as well on pavement, will be much slower, and both reliability, and ease of service remain unknowns. It will be interesting to see how Toyota prices the new 4-Runner, as that will be a big factor for many.

Toyota is known to test the new equipment for long periods in advance of release. IG has the advantage of a good track record with the B58/B57 and similar ZF trannys.

I would think the IG will be solid long-term, buy all of the gremlins reported are a bit concerning if not fixed this summer.

The big advantage with Toyota for me is I have 3 dealers/service centers within 45 minutes and known parts availability vs 4 hours for an IG service center with unknown parts. There is some risk for any initial purchaser.

I prefer a solid front axle for an offroader but do not like Jeeps. That said, there are Eaton and ARB lockers available for Toyota ifs front and rear solid axles, and Toyota LC cv's are stout. The articulation score for the Land Cruiser with kdss is better than basically any stock vehicle but the Wrangler with its sway bars removed (unclear what IG will be without swaybars). A truly brilliant system. (Kdss on 4runner is not nearly as good). It is too bad they didn't bring the 300 stateside.

The 4Runner will be lighter and have less robust parts, but will likely be about half the cost. I'll probably get one for my wife to drive. It would be great to see a 4Runner with the torsen center diff in an offroad model similar to the 4th gens. My biggest issue with the current 4Runner is it is underpowered once you load it up with armor.

I also heard the 4Runner may no longer be built in Japan, which would be unfortunate.

 

[stickshifter]

Toyota is known to test the new equipment for long periods in advance of release. IG has the advantage of a good track record with the B58/B57 and similar ZF trannys.

I would think the IG will be solid long-term, buy all of the gremlins reported are a bit concerning if not fixed this summer.

The big advantage with Toyota for me is I have 3 dealers/service centers within 45 minutes and known parts availability vs 4 hours for an IG service center with unknown parts. There is some risk for any initial purchaser.

I prefer a solid front axle for an offroader but do not like Jeeps. That said, there are Eaton and ARB lockers available for Toyota ifs front and rear solid axles, and Toyota LC cv's are stout. The articulation score for the Land Cruiser with kdss is better than basically any stock vehicle but the Wrangler with its sway bars removed (unclear what IG will be without swaybars). A truly brilliant system. (Kdss on 4runner is not nearly as good). It is too bad they didn't bring the 300 stateside.

The 4Runner will be lighter and have less robust parts, but will likely be about half the cost. I'll probably get one for my wife to drive. It would be great to see a 4Runner with the torsen center diff in an offroad model similar to the 4th gens. My biggest issue with the current 4Runner is it is underpowered once you load it up with armor.

I also heard the 4Runner may no longer be built in Japan, which would be unfortunate.

Land Cruisers are great. Don't know anything about the 300, but all previous generations were tough rigs built to last. My only LC was a 1975 FJ-40, so my personal experience is limited, but the 200-series is a proven commodity for sure.

Yup, there are lockers for the Toyota front end (LC, Tacoma, 4-Runner). Its a harder job than in a SFA, but plenty of folk have done it.

Yeah, the current 4-Runner weighs in at around 4,800 pounds, which is 1,000 pounds less than the gas-powered Grenadier. Most of that difference is in the frame and axles. But the new Tacomas are getting better payload (new frame, and some other new suspension components), and I would guess that we will see something similar for the 4-Runner.

One thing I think we can count on is that the new 4-Runner will not be under-powered. On the contrary, we are seeing power in the mid-size market being redefined by new models of the Chevy Colorado, the Ford Ranger Raptor, the Ford Bronco, and the 2024 Tacoma. Jeep is going to have to put their new I6 in the Wrangler and Gladiator is they want to compete.

Made in Japan is a huge plus for past 4-Runners. That will be a shame if production is moved elsewhere. The factories that make LC, 4-Runners, and the FJ-Cruiser are legendary.

 

[40man]

Land Cruisers are great. Don't know anything about the 300, but all previous generations were tough rigs built to last. My only LC was a 1975 FJ-40, so my personal experience is limited, but the 200-series is a proven commodity for sure.

Yup, there are lockers for the Toyota front end (LC, Tacoma, 4-Runner). Its a harder job than in a SFA, but plenty of folk have done it.

Yeah, the current 4-Runner weighs in at around 4,800 pounds, which is 1,000 pounds less than the gas-powered Grenadier. Most of that difference is in the frame and axles. But the new Tacomas are getting better payload (new frame, and some other new suspension components), and I would guess that we will see something similar for the 4-Runner.

One thing I think we can count on is that the new 4-Runner will not be under-powered. On the contrary, we are seeing power in the mid-size market being redefined by new models of the Chevy Colorado, the Ford Ranger Raptor, the Ford Bronco, and the 2024 Tacoma. Jeep is going to have to put their new I6 in the Wrangler and Gladiator is they want to compete.

Made in Japan is a huge plus for past 4-Runners. That will be a shame if production is moved elsewhere. The factories that make LC, 4-Runners, and the FJ-Cruiser are legendary.

Yeah, putting all the trucks and suvs on the same frame (TNGA-F) standard will put the Tacoma, 4Runner, Sequoia and LC on the same frame design (different sizes of course). This will likely mean big improvements for the Tacoma and 4Runner.

Wish they'd do what Ford did with the Bronco and bring back a true offroader (but with a SFA). The FJ Cruiser missed the mark.

If Toyota released a updated 80 series type Land Cruiser with a SFA in the U.S., I'd likely be headed in that direction. I don't see that happening though.

Ultimately, I think the IG will end up being a well known offroader that is known for reliability for years. I'm sure the small hiccups from the initial release will be fixed shortly. While I'm excited to get one of the first models, I do think they'll learn and make substantial improvements in future years. I also don't see pricing going down.

 

[grenadierguy]

On the increased cost for the US vs. UK model, I am somewhat rationalizing that internally based upon the fact the US is getting the 2024 model with advanced safety features, which Ineos recently confirmed as intelligent speed assistance, lane departure warning, automatic emergency braking, and driver drowsiness detection. Not sure how much those advanced safety features cost, but I expect they aren't cheap. I'm sure shipping costs are higher also.

Where was this confirmed? I did not think it had any of these. Thanks.

 

[Loc Nar]

Where was this confirmed? I did not think it had any of these. Thanks.

See this post.

 

[grenadierguy]

2024 Lexus GX to be revealed on June 8th. Another option to consider starting around $63k.

Starting price, plus any off-road package will be around 72k, same starting price of Grenadier. But yes, excited to see it!