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Steering

Tazzieman

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I just had a thought….. 😱…….. it’s gonna be hard to drive this car and eat an ice cream cone at the same time omg!!
Just get a cone holder that clips to the steering wheel.
 

emax

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And then do a full turn. :cool:
 

Spjnr

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Thought id chime in after getting my 33" muds fitted.

The steering on the motorway with these new tires is seriously impressive. At 60mph the wheel will sit at centre without any input needed. its clear the beefiness of the components help keep everything stable at speed.
 

grenadierboy

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Challenge accepted. 😉
Just attach a spinner knob to the steering wheel (esp. for those that believe their Grenadier to be a truck)!

Screenshot 2023-06-04 104434.png
 
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In debates between independent front suspension (IFS) and solid front axles (SFA), someone always brings up King of the Hammers - and that it is always won by vehicles with IFS :D Not trying to be snarky - it just seems to be a common argument for IFS, but it is one that - to me - isn't all that relevant, as the kind of rigs that win King of the Hammers are not for sale at your local car dealer.

Yes - IFS can be amazing off-road. But the rigs that win King of the Hammers are competition rigs - they are highly specialized, and they are really expensive. I don't think one can compare them to a production vehicle available to the general public.

If we look at production vehicles, SFA rigs provide better articulation, measured using objective techniques (like the Ramp Travel Index - RTI). This allows you to keep tires on the ground when an IFS rig will lift a tire.

Land Rover has developed excellent traction control to counter the poor articulation in their IFS vehicles, and Land Rovers can often keep moving forward when they lift tires. This traction control is enough for easy to moderate trails. But that doesn't change the fact that you are safer, and will get further if all your tires are on the ground. For harder, technical driving in a factory-built rig, SFA will perform better. Go to 20:56 in the following video, and watch the Ford Bronco (IFS) lift tires and get super-tippy. In another video, you can watch the two Wranglers roll through that section with relative ease.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_otepVIGSg

There are other advantages to SFA, like ease of service, ease of modification, and lower cost of modification (I am talking about mods like bigger tires and different gears).

The obvious disadvantage of SFA comes on-road, with - as you mention - high unsprung mass, and less precise steering.

Both IFS and SFA need to be properly maintained to function at peak levels.
I'M interested to see what the IG's RTI score is without a sway bar. With sway bar the IG does better than the Wrangler. Without a sway bar the Wrangler has the highest score for a stock vehicle (available in the U.S. anyway).

Of note, the 200 and 300 Land Cruiser KDSS allows for amazing articulation for an IFS system.


Here is a list of US vehicles from the ih8mud forum:

Score Chart:

'18 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon JLUR (bar off): 724
Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon JLUR (bar off): 718
'22 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon 4xe (bar off): 701
Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon JKUR (last gen, bar off): 687
'22 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon 392 (bar off): 684
'
20 Toyota Land Cruiser Heritage Edition: 661
'08 Power Wagon: 655
'21 Bronco 2-Door First Edition 35" Sasquatch (bar off): 648
'
17 Toyota Land Cruiser: 647
'
17 Lexus LX570 (AHC normal, 20" wheels): 645
'21 Ford Bronco First Ed (bar off): 618
'21 Ford Raptor: 618
Jeep Gladiator Rubicon (bar off): 607
'17 Ford Rapter Supercab: 603
'21 Ram 1500 TRX: 602
'93 Toyota Land Cruiser 80-series: 593
'16 Dodge Power Wagon: 589
'
20 Lexus LX570 Sport w/chin spoiler (AHC high, 21" wheels): 588
'22 Ineos Grenadier: 585
'95 Land Rover Discovery: 588
'10 Toyota 4runner w/KDSS: 584
'94 Land Rover Defender 90: 580
'17 Land Rover LR4: 560
'22 Tacoma TRD Pro: 559
'22 Ford F-150 Raptor 35s: 559
'22 Ford F-150 Tremor: 557
'21 Toyota 4Runner TRD Off-Road (w/KDSS): 555
'14 Ford Raptor: 551
'20 Power Wagon (w/ disconnecting sway): 538
'21 Ford Raptor w/37" tire package: 537
Mercedes G63 AMG (last gen): 534
'23 Ford F-150 Raptor R: 525
Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon JLUR (bar on): 523
'21 Bronco 2-Door First Edition 35" Sasquatch (bar on): 522
'04 GX470 w/KDSS: 519
Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon JKUR (last gen, bar off): 518
'17 Land Rover Discovery: 516
'07 Toyota FJ Cruiser: 515
'22 Rivian R1T (Normal): 510
'18 Dodge Power Wagon: 510
Chevy Colorado ZR2 Bison: 501
'21 Ford Bronco First Ed (bar on): 498
Toyota Tacoma TRD Pro: 492
'21 Chevy Colorado ZR2: 489
'22 Rivian R1T (Rock Crawl Mode aka high): 488
'20 Land Rover Defender 110 SE: 486
'14 Toyota Tundra TRD Pro: 484
Jeep Gladiator Mojave: 476
Toyota Tacoma TRD Off-Road: 468
Jeep Gladiator Rubicon (bar on): 458
'17 Land Rover LR4 (high mode): 457
'22 Ford Ranger Tremor: 441
'20 F-250 Superduty Tremor: 436
'22 Tundra TRD Pro: 436
'22 Nissan Frontier Pro 4X: 435
'04 GX470 (no KDSS): 428
'15 Ford F150: 420
'14 Ram Power Wagon: 412
Chevy Colorado Z71 (air dam removed): 410
'19 Ram Rebel: 406
'17 Land Rover Discovery (high mode): 377
'11 Mercedes-Benz G-Class 300 CDI Professional: 376
'17 Nissan Armada: 362
'20 Sequoia TRD Pro: 351
'20 Rav4 TRD Off-Road: 308
 

DenisM

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I'M interested to see what the IG's RTI score is without a sway bar. With sway bar the IG does better than the Wrangler. Without a sway bar the Wrangler has the highest score for a stock vehicle (available in the U.S. anyway).

Of note, the 200 and 300 Land Cruiser KDSS allows for amazing articulation for an IFS system.


Here is a list of US vehicles from the ih8mud forum:

Score Chart:

'18 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon JLUR (bar off): 724
Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon JLUR (bar off): 718
'22 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon 4xe (bar off): 701
Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon JKUR (last gen, bar off): 687
'22 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon 392 (bar off): 684
'
20 Toyota Land Cruiser Heritage Edition: 661
'08 Power Wagon: 655
'21 Bronco 2-Door First Edition 35" Sasquatch (bar off): 648
'
17 Toyota Land Cruiser: 647
'
17 Lexus LX570 (AHC normal, 20" wheels): 645
'21 Ford Bronco First Ed (bar off): 618
'21 Ford Raptor: 618
Jeep Gladiator Rubicon (bar off): 607
'17 Ford Rapter Supercab: 603
'21 Ram 1500 TRX: 602
'93 Toyota Land Cruiser 80-series: 593
'16 Dodge Power Wagon: 589
'
20 Lexus LX570 Sport w/chin spoiler (AHC high, 21" wheels): 588
'22 Ineos Grenadier: 585
'95 Land Rover Discovery: 588
'10 Toyota 4runner w/KDSS: 584
'94 Land Rover Defender 90: 580
'17 Land Rover LR4: 560
'22 Tacoma TRD Pro: 559
'22 Ford F-150 Raptor 35s: 559
'22 Ford F-150 Tremor: 557
'21 Toyota 4Runner TRD Off-Road (w/KDSS): 555
'14 Ford Raptor: 551
'20 Power Wagon (w/ disconnecting sway): 538
'21 Ford Raptor w/37" tire package: 537
Mercedes G63 AMG (last gen): 534
'23 Ford F-150 Raptor R: 525
Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon JLUR (bar on): 523
'21 Bronco 2-Door First Edition 35" Sasquatch (bar on): 522
'04 GX470 w/KDSS: 519
Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon JKUR (last gen, bar off): 518
'17 Land Rover Discovery: 516
'07 Toyota FJ Cruiser: 515
'22 Rivian R1T (Normal): 510
'18 Dodge Power Wagon: 510
Chevy Colorado ZR2 Bison: 501
'21 Ford Bronco First Ed (bar on): 498
Toyota Tacoma TRD Pro: 492
'21 Chevy Colorado ZR2: 489
'22 Rivian R1T (Rock Crawl Mode aka high): 488
'20 Land Rover Defender 110 SE: 486
'14 Toyota Tundra TRD Pro: 484
Jeep Gladiator Mojave: 476
Toyota Tacoma TRD Off-Road: 468
Jeep Gladiator Rubicon (bar on): 458
'17 Land Rover LR4 (high mode): 457
'22 Ford Ranger Tremor: 441
'20 F-250 Superduty Tremor: 436
'22 Tundra TRD Pro: 436
'22 Nissan Frontier Pro 4X: 435
'04 GX470 (no KDSS): 428
'15 Ford F150: 420
'14 Ram Power Wagon: 412
Chevy Colorado Z71 (air dam removed): 410
'19 Ram Rebel: 406
'17 Land Rover Discovery (high mode): 377
'11 Mercedes-Benz G-Class 300 CDI Professional: 376
'17 Nissan Armada: 362
'20 Sequoia TRD Pro: 351
'20 Rav4 TRD Off-Road: 308
Why does it matter? The IG wasn't designed nor intended to be a "technical" rock crawler....
 
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Why does it matter? The IG wasn't designed nor intended to be a "technical" rock crawler....
RTI does not mean a whole lot, but I have been in plenty non "rock crawling" technical sections where articulation has gotten me through tough sections. And I tend to fully test its capabilities from day one.
 

DaveB

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I'M interested to see what the IG's RTI score is without a sway bar. With sway bar the IG does better than the Wrangler. Without a sway bar the Wrangler has the highest score for a stock vehicle (available in the U.S. anyway).

Of note, the 200 and 300 Land Cruiser KDSS allows for amazing articulation for an IFS system.


Here is a list of US vehicles from the ih8mud forum:

Score Chart:

'18 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon JLUR (bar off): 724
Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon JLUR (bar off): 718
'22 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon 4xe (bar off): 701
Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon JKUR (last gen, bar off): 687
'22 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon 392 (bar off): 684
'
20 Toyota Land Cruiser Heritage Edition: 661
'08 Power Wagon: 655
'21 Bronco 2-Door First Edition 35" Sasquatch (bar off): 648
'
17 Toyota Land Cruiser: 647
'
17 Lexus LX570 (AHC normal, 20" wheels): 645
'21 Ford Bronco First Ed (bar off): 618
'21 Ford Raptor: 618
Jeep Gladiator Rubicon (bar off): 607
'17 Ford Rapter Supercab: 603
'21 Ram 1500 TRX: 602
'93 Toyota Land Cruiser 80-series: 593
'16 Dodge Power Wagon: 589
'
20 Lexus LX570 Sport w/chin spoiler (AHC high, 21" wheels): 588
'22 Ineos Grenadier: 585
'95 Land Rover Discovery: 588
'10 Toyota 4runner w/KDSS: 584
'94 Land Rover Defender 90: 580
'17 Land Rover LR4: 560
'22 Tacoma TRD Pro: 559
'22 Ford F-150 Raptor 35s: 559
'22 Ford F-150 Tremor: 557
'21 Toyota 4Runner TRD Off-Road (w/KDSS): 555
'14 Ford Raptor: 551
'20 Power Wagon (w/ disconnecting sway): 538
'21 Ford Raptor w/37" tire package: 537
Mercedes G63 AMG (last gen): 534
'23 Ford F-150 Raptor R: 525
Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon JLUR (bar on): 523
'21 Bronco 2-Door First Edition 35" Sasquatch (bar on): 522
'04 GX470 w/KDSS: 519
Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon JKUR (last gen, bar off): 518
'17 Land Rover Discovery: 516
'07 Toyota FJ Cruiser: 515
'22 Rivian R1T (Normal): 510
'18 Dodge Power Wagon: 510
Chevy Colorado ZR2 Bison: 501
'21 Ford Bronco First Ed (bar on): 498
Toyota Tacoma TRD Pro: 492
'21 Chevy Colorado ZR2: 489
'22 Rivian R1T (Rock Crawl Mode aka high): 488
'20 Land Rover Defender 110 SE: 486
'14 Toyota Tundra TRD Pro: 484
Jeep Gladiator Mojave: 476
Toyota Tacoma TRD Off-Road: 468
Jeep Gladiator Rubicon (bar on): 458
'17 Land Rover LR4 (high mode): 457
'22 Ford Ranger Tremor: 441
'20 F-250 Superduty Tremor: 436
'22 Tundra TRD Pro: 436
'22 Nissan Frontier Pro 4X: 435
'04 GX470 (no KDSS): 428
'15 Ford F150: 420
'14 Ram Power Wagon: 412
Chevy Colorado Z71 (air dam removed): 410
'19 Ram Rebel: 406
'17 Land Rover Discovery (high mode): 377
'11 Mercedes-Benz G-Class 300 CDI Professional: 376
'17 Nissan Armada: 362
'20 Sequoia TRD Pro: 351
'20 Rav4 TRD Off-Road: 308
We don't have such a thing in Australia.
 
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Regarding steering and the way it feels.

Last week we drove a demonstrator for a few miles (our own vehicle should be ready to collect this week) and both my wife and I were a little unhappy with its feel.

Of course, we will revisit this idiosyncrasy when we have our own vehicle, but we have decided that it has to meet our expectations otherwise it will have to join the 21 already on Autotrader.

pretty sure the steering is going to be problem stateside. especially to those that's never driven anything like this. the lack of responsiveness makes you feel unsafe. I'm not sure of the percentage of people that can afford this car is willing to adapt to this feel just going from point a to point b.

would not be surprised to see changes made in future models
 

anand

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the lack of responsiveness makes you feel unsafe. I'm not sure of the percentage of people that can afford this car is willing to adapt to this feel just going from point a to point b.

Have you driven a Grenadier on the road at speed to confirm that "the lack of responsiveness makes you feel unsafe"?
 
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pretty sure the steering is going to be problem stateside. especially to those that's never driven anything like this. the lack of responsiveness makes you feel unsafe. I'm not sure of the percentage of people that can afford this car is willing to adapt to this feel just going from point a to point b.

would not be surprised to see changes made in future models
It's absolutely fine you just have to know/learn how to use it. A Lotus seven it is not.
 
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Have you driven a Grenadier on the road at speed to confirm that "the lack of responsiveness makes you feel unsafe"?

I've never driven the grenadier so I can't give a first hand take. but I've driven similar vehicles like this. feeling unsafe is just a byproduct from all the play that some will feel driving it for the first time.
 

DCPU

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pretty sure the metric nut sizes are going to be problem stateside. especially to those that's never spannered anything like this. the lack of imperial sizes makes you feel unsafe. I'm not sure of the percentage of people that can afford this car is willing to adapt to a completely new set of spanners just going from point a to point b.

would not be surprised to see changes made in future models
 

Hannes01

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I've lived with inch and metric tools for years, no problem.
the best is the Cobra, motor and drivetrain inch, the rest metric
 
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