Software Update for ADAS etc. coming in 60 days for NA.

[ormandj]

If IA is going to fix something like we've been discussing, they will fix it right and that is not easily implemented quickly.

Implementing a country-specific change to make a setting permanent vs temporary, when the ability to make permanent settings already exists and country-specific differentiation already exists means this is an easy change from a technical perspective. Regulatory burdens would be the only major hurdle, are you aware of any governing the infotainment updated and recertification or ADAS speed warnings in the US? I say this as someone with significant experience in embedded systems design both from an EE as well as CS perspective. The change itself cannot possibly have been difficult.

Perhaps its sheer coincidence that the update was announced shortly after a bunch of very high profile reviewers called out the ADAS situation in the US.

I just don’t understand why anybody, especially an owner, would defend the inability to reset a maintenance interval light on a vehicle specifically sold to be self serviceable. I can do that on my Volvo, my Toyota, my Jeep, and every other car I’ve owned in the past. I have the same gripes on other promises, such as the service manual. My vehicles which were not sold as minimally electronic vehicles don’t bother me with ADAS speed warnings, even though they are sold in countries that require them, too. I’ll leave the topic alone now.

 

[parb]

In the US manufacturers self certify. If they break the rules then they get fined and open themselves up for liability.

Fun trivia... Number one issue that manufacturers has taken fines and recalls on for the past few years? The Backup cameras and screens. Typically not starting up fast enough or otherwise not participating in the driving task as a safety system.

I'm sure Ineos outsourced this to a software house and asked for liability. This is what typically adds time, mostly with lawyers and testing. Probably not with the actual engineers implementing the change. You'd be surprised how much more worried the European manufacturing base and oems are about handling liability than on the US side where the car maker assumes they will own it and tests implementations with that assumption and knowledge of what the actual financial exposure may be.

Safety and regulated technology is a part of the industry I've worked in (not in automotive anymore).

 

[nodric]

Coincidentally, the creator of the code from the Matrix revealed it is all Sushi recipes he took from a Japanese magazine and used katakana on screen.

Being young is no excuse for sleepwalking into privacy issues and the risks of AI. The future is interesting for sure.

 

[parb]

AI is coming so fast that it's an unstoppable shift in computing. It's changing computer science in an profound way, and that is a true generational divide with the avg age of the ai model engineer being half of the industry average for SW developer.

It cost about $100m to train chatgpt4 using about 13 trillion tokens (think words) from Internet data, books and school textbooks. Today, 1 year letter you can do this for about $20-25m. That is how fast this technology is moving.
There is at least 100,000 times performance improvements left to be done in the large model technology that is shipping today. None which has been done yet, the engineers are still prioritizing expanding capabilities over performance.

AI will be everywhere. It's just too profound. Both in big models like chatgpt and small models like an power steering curve in a microcontroller.

 

[Tom109]

Implementing a country-specific change to make a setting permanent vs temporary, when the ability to make permanent settings already exists and country-specific differentiation already exists means this is an easy change from a technical perspective. Regulatory burdens would be the only major hurdle, are you aware of any governing the infotainment updated and recertification or ADAS speed warnings in the US? I say this as someone with significant experience in embedded systems design both from an EE as well as CS perspective. The change itself cannot possibly have been difficult.

Perhaps its sheer coincidence that the update was announced shortly after a bunch of very high profile reviewers called out the ADAS situation in the US.

I just don’t understand why anybody, especially an owner, would defend the inability to reset a maintenance interval light on a vehicle specifically sold to be self serviceable. I can do that on my Volvo, my Toyota, my Jeep, and every other car I’ve owned in the past. I have the same gripes on other promises, such as the service manual. My vehicles which were not sold as minimally electronic vehicles don’t bother me with ADAS speed warnings, even though they are sold in countries that require them, too. I’ll leave the topic alone now.

I wasn't over simplifying, but I'm not one to blow things out of proportion either. I'm not suffering any inability to drive/enjoy/use my vehicle and therefore in a position to accept IA's need for time to implement. NA production started August 2023. It is reasonable to expect changes and updates in the first 12-months of a new vehicle and brand. Also consider another year for aftermarket hacks to further enhance ownership...

 

[anand]

So why, after a year+ of this forum being full of commentary about the ADAS issue, the service indicator light reset, service manuals, etc have these things not been fixed/addressed? If the opinion of forum members is so high up Ineos NA's priority list, then something doesn't track. There haven't been any official statements I've seen. Mr. Pepper did a pretty good interview with Mr. Hoecvar and there was some information given there, but very guarded and not definitive regarding service manuals.

A slew of reviews come out on the popular YT channels with every single one harping on the ADAS issue in the US, and we've got official word about it with an update coming in short order.

The majority of the vehicle's potential market isn't a forum full of people who have a vested and deep interest in the vehicle, it's the people who don't already own the vehicles and might be deterred from buying them due to the feedback that (like it or not) is far more viewed than anything on this forum. The average buyer isn't going to dig into a forum when looking to purchase a vehicle, they're just going to search Google/YT for "Grenadier review" and get Doug D., TFL, etc.

Just a few comments...

Within initial global deliveries being 15 months ago, the SRI reset and service manuals weren't a huge topic at first. The ADAS "complaints" have only existed for 6 months, and in one market. Ineos Automotive (in North America) has been hearing the brunt of those very vocal customers, but in reality they can't change a thing about the product directly. Also, in the first 6 months of a model roll out in a new market, dealing with non-critical things (such as a persistent ADAS disable option or an end user SRI reset) is at the absolute bottom of the list. The ADAS turning on at each start up isn't a failure or an error in the system, it is a system operating in the way it was designed. The complaint is that people don't like the way it was designed, which is seen as something very different. What is high on the list is making sure vehicles get to customers, dealers are set up/trained, staff is hired, etc. Personally, that makes perfect sense. A year ago IA North America was a team of 16 people (+/- 2 as this is from memory); it has grown to well over twice that now.

Even as of a year ago the service manual wasn't expected until after US deliveries started (and at the time US deliveries were realistically going to happen around the new year or early Q1 2024). A printed manual that is actually informative would be a massive undertaking of deleting useful information. And opening an online service manual without removing the IP would be a horrible idea. It is unfortunate, but not unexpected that it hasn't been released yet. If I were to guess, my feeling is that it will be made available to the public for MY25, assuming mid-year variants aren't still happening then.

The "average buyer" doesn't specifically exist for the Grenadier. There are a few "groups" of expected and ideal purchasers, and those folks are the ones who will search out the forum and other outlets. This very purposefully is not a vehicle for the masses. The reason so many dealers are doing off road events is because the vehicle is one that is intended to be surrounded in community with owners, this was a key factor in choosing dealers in the US; it is intended for those willing to dig deeper and wider

 

[nodric]

Just a few comments...

Within initial global deliveries being 15 months ago, the SRI reset and service manuals weren't a huge topic at first. The ADAS "complaints" have only existed for 6 months, and in one market. Ineos Automotive (in North America) has been hearing the brunt of those very vocal customers, but in reality they can't change a thing about the product directly. Also, in the first 6 months of a model roll out in a new market, dealing with non-critical things (such as a persistent ADAS disable option or an end user SRI reset) is at the absolute bottom of the list. The ADAS turning on at each start up isn't a failure or an error in the system, it is a system operating in the way it was designed. The complaint is that people don't like the way it was designed, which is seen as something very different. What is high on the list is making sure vehicles get to customers, dealers are set up/trained, staff is hired, etc. Personally, that makes perfect sense. A year ago IA North America was a team of 16 people (+/- 2 as this is from memory); it has grown to well over twice that now.

Even as of a year ago the service manual wasn't expected until after US deliveries started (and at the time US deliveries were realistically going to happen around the new year or early Q1 2024). A printed manual that is actually informative would be a massive undertaking of deleting useful information. And opening an online service manual without removing the IP would be a horrible idea. It is unfortunate, but not unexpected that it hasn't been released yet. If I were to guess, my feeling is that it will be made available to the public for MY25, assuming mid-year variants aren't still happening then.

The "average buyer" doesn't specifically exist for the Grenadier. There are a few "groups" of expected and ideal purchasers, and those folks are the ones who will search out the forum and other outlets. This very purposefully is not a vehicle for the masses. The reason so many dealers are doing off road events is because the vehicle is one that is intended to be surrounded in community with owners, this was a key factor in choosing dealers in the US; it is intended for those willing to dig deeper and wider

I worked for Toyota for 16 years. A few months is fast Think regulators, homologation, safety advocates, and tons of red tape. And I am a software guy, and just navigating the hoops of development and testing is onerous, and this is firmware and not pure software. The regionalization of software was poor but understandable.

The EU vs the USA (rest of the world) is getting even more problematic as Apple announced a reduction of features for the EU (and the UK will get screwed as a result) as they cannot meet the onerous demands of the Parish Council (called HOAs in the USA ) full of miserable do gooders wanting to control the world for the rest of us, yet allowing data mining of personal data as if it was a free for all. I lived in Belgium and worked at the EU at one point. What a dreadful waste of human life.

I digress.

 

[Lars]

Just a few comments...

Within initial global deliveries being 15 months ago, the SRI reset and service manuals weren't a huge topic at first. The ADAS "complaints" have only existed for 6 months, and in one market. Ineos Automotive (in North America) has been hearing the brunt of those very vocal customers, but in reality they can't change a thing about the product directly. Also, in the first 6 months of a model roll out in a new market, dealing with non-critical things (such as a persistent ADAS disable option or an end user SRI reset) is at the absolute bottom of the list. The ADAS turning on at each start up isn't a failure or an error in the system, it is a system operating in the way it was designed. The complaint is that people don't like the way it was designed, which is seen as something very different. What is high on the list is making sure vehicles get to customers, dealers are set up/trained, staff is hired, etc. Personally, that makes perfect sense. A year ago IA North America was a team of 16 people (+/- 2 as this is from memory); it has grown to well over twice that now.

Even as of a year ago the service manual wasn't expected until after US deliveries started (and at the time US deliveries were realistically going to happen around the new year or early Q1 2024). A printed manual that is actually informative would be a massive undertaking of deleting useful information. And opening an online service manual without removing the IP would be a horrible idea. It is unfortunate, but not unexpected that it hasn't been released yet. If I were to guess, my feeling is that it will be made available to the public for MY25, assuming mid-year variants aren't still happening then.

The "average buyer" doesn't specifically exist for the Grenadier. There are a few "groups" of expected and ideal purchasers, and those folks are the ones who will search out the forum and other outlets. This very purposefully is not a vehicle for the masses. The reason so many dealers are doing off road events is because the vehicle is one that is intended to be surrounded in community with owners, this was a key factor in choosing dealers in the US; it is intended for those willing to dig deeper and wider

I usually respect everything Anand says but this may be too much…sorry dude

…the SRI reset and service manuals weren't a huge topic at first… Why not? They hired people who had been in the industry for years. They should have known. I personally asked during the demo roadshow whether we would have the “Right to Repair”. No pass given to Ineos for this.

…"complaints" have only existed for 6 months, and in one market… So in other words the whole time they’ve been on sale in the U.S. with the full ADAS. Only in “One Market”. OK, from what I’ve read, arguably the biggest and most important market. No pass given to Ineos for this

… with non-critical things (such as a persistent ADAS disable option or an end user SRI reset) is at the absolute bottom of the list… Thank god for this forum and the internet to inform Ineos what the customer needs and requirements are. No pass given to Ineos for this

…What is high on the list is making sure vehicles get to customers… So how did that work out for them with all the worldwide software updates and post production recalls?

…opening an online service manual without removing the IP would be a horrible idea… That statement needs a lot more explanation. What IP could Ineos have that isn’t pretty much industry standard? All the other manufactures have dealer-level online service manuals out there for a subscription fee.

…very purposefully is not a vehicle for the masses… Yes, that’s one of the reasons I bought one, but if it doesn’t meet the customers wants, needs and desires, will they survive on that alone?

BTW, I love my Grenadier

 

[Offroad]

I don't know how many recalls there are on the Grenadier but overall I think the launch was OK in terms of issues, or the lack thereof so far. The trailer hitch issue at launch was unfortunate, sticky door handles and the gas range / engine check light thing are the ones that come to mind. In terms of the ADAS Overspeed, that was a very bad design decision, and am glad they are fixing it. As mentioned above, they are clearly focused on selling/delivering customer vehicles but they missed the mark on getting the dealer and customer support network in place before delivering the vehicles.

 

[anand]

I usually respect everything Anand says but this may be too much…sorry dude

…the SRI reset and service manuals weren't a huge topic at first… Why not? They hired people who had been in the industry for years. They should have known. I personally asked during the demo roadshow whether we would have the “Right to Repair”. No pass given to Ineos for this.

…"complaints" have only existed for 6 months, and in one market… So in other words the whole time they’ve been on sale in the U.S. with the full ADAS. Only in “One Market”. OK, from what I’ve read, arguably the biggest and most important market. No pass given to Ineos for this

… with non-critical things (such as a persistent ADAS disable option or an end user SRI reset) is at the absolute bottom of the list… Thank god for this forum and the internet to inform Ineos what the customer needs and requirements are. No pass given to Ineos for this

…What is high on the list is making sure vehicles get to customers… So how did that work out for them with all the worldwide software updates and post production recalls?

…opening an online service manual without removing the IP would be a horrible idea… That statement needs a lot more explanation. What IP could Ineos have that isn’t pretty much industry standard? All the other manufactures have dealer-level online service manuals out there for a subscription fee.

…very purposefully is not a vehicle for the masses… Yes, that’s one of the reasons I bought one, but if it doesn’t meet the customers wants, needs and desires, will they survive on that alone?

BTW, I love my Grenadier

Thoroughly kind intro words, I'm honored and in no way offended that you disagree

I too love my Grenadier, and I think it's perfectly fine to have differing opinions regarding virtually everything on here... Especially on the way in which this roll out (can we still call it a roll out 6 months in?) is being handled and will be handled moving forward

I typed my response rather hastily as I was headed out the door, so perhaps I should have differentiated IA Americas vs. IA UK/Global. I can't confirm if IA Global reads this forum frequently or not, but IA Americas does; unfortunately IA Americas can only pass along and attempt to force the hand of IA Global to make the software/hardware changes (and release manuals). IA Global certainly learned a lot from the initial deliveries and instituted changes over their first 9 months to pass along all sorts of good changes for our MY24 vehicles. I'm pretty certain this is continuing through MY24 globally and will into MY25.

As for the IP, I mention it because it was specifically mentioned in the Robert Pepper/Justin Hocevar interview. I have never seen more than a few screens of the factory repair manual, so I'm not sure how in depth it goes or what "privileged" information may be in it.

Not meeting customers desires is an interesting point; unlike your usual car brand who has to answer to shareholders, Ineos just goes back to the hole in a single man's pocket. So maybe they have to meet those desires, or maybe they don't. I certainly hope they do, at least for most things.

 

[255/85]

Like @Lars above I really appreciate your input here. Forgive my editing of your comments below to speed things along.

Just a few comments...

...What is high on the list is making sure vehicles get to customers, dealers are set up/trained, staff is hired, etc. Personally, that makes perfect sense. A year ago IA North America was a team of 16 people (+/- 2 as this is from memory); it has grown to well over twice that now.

Still a rather small number compared to the Big 3/4/5, no?

Even as of a year ago the service manual wasn't expected until after US deliveries started (and at the time US deliveries were realistically going to happen around the new year or early Q1 2024). A printed manual that is actually informative would be a massive undertaking of deleting useful information. And opening an online service manual without removing the IP would be a horrible idea. It is unfortunate, but not unexpected that it hasn't been released yet. If I were to guess, my feeling is that it will be made available to the public for MY25, assuming mid-year variants aren't still happening then.

Regarding a manual I think the customer base could likely be broken down into two categories...

a) Those that will do actual repair work on their vehicle.

b) Those that will not do actual repair work on their vehicle.

The first group, probably somewhat familiar with vehicle repair, can suffice with simple exploded diagrams, a written disassembly and assembly order, and the applicable torque specs for the process being undertaken. Transmission repair beyond R&R and general maintenance or perhaps complete engine dismantling can be omitted as that information is likely available elsewhere. Surely this can't be that difficult. Put it online as a .pdf and anyone anywhere can download it, print it, whatever for a small fee.

The second group can make do with a subscription-based online version implemented by their dealer or their local service shop. This exists already, at least to some degree.

Perhaps there is a third group - Those not familiar with pulling a wrench but want to begin with their Grenadier or Quartermaster. (I might add that the Grenadier is not the best place to start.) If truly interested then paying for access to a modern online manual would be the way to go for this group because of the animated instructions and clear directions. I could see that as being difficult for Ineos for all sorts of liability and logistical reasons. The first two not so much.

The "average buyer" doesn't specifically exist for the Grenadier. There are a few "groups" of expected and ideal purchasers, and those folks are the ones who will search out the forum and other outlets. This very purposefully is not a vehicle for the masses. The reason so many dealers are doing off road events is because the vehicle is one that is intended to be surrounded in community with owners, this was a key factor in choosing dealers in the US; it is intended for those willing to dig deeper and wider.

Is not the first group I mentioned above comprised of "ideal purchasers"?

 

[255/85]

My guess is that it was noticed that the start up time was deemed to be too long if you just jumped on board and drove away.

The solution (hack) was to trigger the system when the doors were opened.

Is there a "wait-to-start" light for vehicles with the diesel engine?

 

[landmannnn]

Is there a "wait-to-start" light for vehicles with the diesel engine?

No.

 

[Tom109]

My guess is that it was noticed that the start up time was deemed to be too long if you just jumped on board and drove away.

The solution (hack) was to trigger the system when the doors were opened.

I noticed that the initial start-up-upon-door-opening may be avoided by not locking the vehicle. Yesterday, while working on another vehicle, I retrieved tools from my Grenadier without a single electrical whir when I opened the drivers door. Confirmed several times throughout the day, and again this morning. The center screen doesn't even light up.

 

[bikesandguitars]

I don't know how many recalls there are on the Grenadier but overall I think the launch was OK in terms of issues, or the lack thereof so far. The trailer hitch issue at launch was unfortunate, sticky door handles and the gas range / engine check light thing are the ones that come to mind. In terms of the ADAS Overspeed, that was a very bad design decision, and am glad they are fixing it. As mentioned above, they are clearly focused on selling/delivering customer vehicles but they missed the mark on getting the dealer and customer support network in place before delivering the vehicles.

There are two recalls. The first is to replace a non locking nut with a locking nut on the steering ball joint. It affected very few vehicles. The second is to move a wire harness on the auxiliary switch package that may have been pinched in the assembly process. Finding this information requires a five second internet search.

Ineos 2024 sales goal was to deliver 1,000 vehicles in the U.S. That volume of sales does not require a large cadre of dealerships. As matter of fact, it would be a poor business decision to open dealers and then starve them of product. The exclusivity, at least for me, was part of the charm. Of course, new dealers are being opened as the brand looks to expand in North America.

Every single buyer knew where their dealer was located when they purchased the vehicle. I, for one, didn’t expect to buy my vehicle 128 miles away and then suddenly have a dealership or authorized service center open in my backyard. I realized that Ineos wanted to keep service close to the vest as this was a new release. Myriad service centers reporting mystery ailments and fixes is a recipe for disaster. I knew exactly where my service center was located before I wrote the check.

I know you sold your vehicle shortly after purchasing it and don’t actually own a Grenadier. But for those of us that have endured the two button pushes to switch off over speed warning, I can assure you that it is a fantastic off roader, a very comfortable highway cruiser, a powerful towing ute and, at 7,000 miles, as reliable as my Land Cruiser. Actually, it is turning out to be a bargain compared to the $105,000 Land Cruiser / LX570 - and the Grenadier is far more capable off road.

Maybe if you ever own one again and actually run it through its paces both on-road and off, you can give us another review.

As for the software update, I spoke to my dealer again. They said, informally, that they will announce the update when they test it and see it in action. After the demand / delays with the tow hitch, they want to temper expectations.

 

[Tjhappel]

Hopefully you guys get an update that will alleviate your frustrations.

I like the fact that the dealer is sending out emails like that informing everyone that it’s going to be available….great customer service

Mossy is great…. They truly seem to care

 

[bikesandguitars]

Implementing a country-specific change to make a setting permanent vs temporary, when the ability to make permanent settings already exists and country-specific differentiation already exists means this is an easy change from a technical perspective. Regulatory burdens would be the only major hurdle, are you aware of any governing the infotainment updated and recertification or ADAS speed warnings in the US? I say this as someone with significant experience in embedded systems design both from an EE as well as CS perspective. The change itself cannot possibly have been difficult.

Perhaps its sheer coincidence that the update was announced shortly after a bunch of very high profile reviewers called out the ADAS situation in the US.

I just don’t understand why anybody, especially an owner, would defend the inability to reset a maintenance interval light on a vehicle specifically sold to be self serviceable. I can do that on my Volvo, my Toyota, my Jeep, and every other car I’ve owned in the past. I have the same gripes on other promises, such as the service manual. My vehicles which were not sold as minimally electronic vehicles don’t bother me with ADAS speed warnings, even though they are sold in countries that require them, too. I’ll leave the topic alone now.

I think some people are simply more patient than others. If this were an established automaker’s brand, I’d agree with you 100%. Personally, I knew I was buying a fledgling vehicle from an automotive start up. I didn’t expect perfection. I expected progress. I’m happy with it.

I ran companies in a former life. My approach to new products was always, “Take it out of the workshop and see what breaks”. We never expected perfection on v.1.0. Of course, we hoped for it. But we knew our clients would find a shortcoming. My other mantra was, “Our customers make us better”. That was a sly way of saying, “they will complain and we will listen”.

For me, Ineos approach is nothing new. These things take time. Your wish list will be fulfilled.