Americas Price shock (US)

[ShaunS91]

It is a shame, I was hoping for it to be in the 55k-60k range but tipping overthe 80k number makes it a stretch. Paid less then that for my first house.

 

[Sailor96]

Hi Christian - I think we're all in the same boat here. A few weeks back I spec'd the truck the way I truly want it in both UK and Aus prices and then used XE.com to convert into USD. There's lots of room for error, but when I do that it fits in my budget (barely). There are certainly things I will forgo need be to drop the price if I need to once US figures are announced.

If I am honest though, my true worry is d-bag dealers and their "market adjustment fees." I really do want a Grenadier - I have since the project got underway - but I will not pay over list. It's not right how dealers get away with it and what's worse, the manufacturers are helpless because of our own state laws. I'm not sure about the direct sales logistics working out (someone posted a map on a different thread) so maybe some states can offer direct sales through Ineos, but I know for a fact that my state, NJ, is not one of them. I have expressed to others that I am willing to travel to not get ripped off! I bought a Ford Raptor a few years back down in Florida because the dealer four miles from my house wanted $10k over when the order banks first opened. I said thanks but no thanks but a few months later, they had the balls to call to see if I was still interested and that the adjustment was up to $15k. Screw that. Greedy bastards.

Market adjustment fees is a legitimate concern- I'm wondering if there would be a Europe delivery option- That could get around dealer fees- Thinking out loud

 

[Deleted User Account.]

I was wondering what vehicles you would compare it against there?
The market in NA is so different to the rest of the world

Probably a truck, but I've already got a truck I use for towing all over North America, but it's heavy and not great on sand. I'd love the grenadier to tow my boat for coastal camping/fishing. Will likely go with the Rivian R1S if the grenadier doesn't work out.

 

[DaveB]

I’m still really keen on the Grenadier; it is maybe 75% of what I would want in my “perfect overlander” - and that is higher than anything currently on the market. But I’m with you both - there is risk with the purchase, especially in the American market, and rumors of rising prices and extended delays are dampening my enthusiasm.

Apart from the transfer case, which is made by Tremec in Mexico, none of the parts are sourced from North America. This creates an added concern around part-availability and access to service. NOTE – if the Grenadier becomes really successful, my guess is that BMW dealers will take over sales and service, and that would alleviate concerns over access to parts and service. However, if the Grenadier remains a low-volume niche vehicle, long-term ownership might be a bit of a nuisance, and if Ineos Automotive goes under, well, that’s a whole other problem.

While some parts are quite common here (e.g. the BMW engine and the ZF transmission) many other parts are harder to come by. In particular, I’m a little concerned about the Carraro axles; they are supposed to be an excellent product, but we know little about the availability of gears or aftermarket lockers for these axles. In contrast, Dana-type axles (whether made by Dana, Dynatrac, Terraflex, or whoever) are super common, gears are widely available, as are lockers, including the manual (cable-actuated) lockers from Ox (which - in my opinion - are the lockers that best embrace the ethos of the Grenadier). If the Grenadier came with Dana axles, I would order one without factory lockers, and I’d put in a set of Ox-Lockers: (1) no electronic actuator as with the Eaton lockers in the IG, (2) they do not unlock briefly when shifting between forward and reverse as with the Eaton lockers, (3) no need for air lines and O-rings as with ARB Air-Lockers, and (4) they are super strong, and engage when you pull a manual lever.

My concerns around parts and service seem to go up as the likely price for the vehicle goes up. Part of that is irrational, and based on a vague notion of risk, and part is based on the viability of the Grenadier in the North American market. I worry that as price goes up, the Grenadier will price itself out of the market like the Landcruiser 200 did. The Landcruiser’s main competitive advantage was its durability and reliability; many other vehicles were faster and handled better on-road (Range Rover, BMW, Audi, etc.), many other vehicles were cheaper, but still provided all-wheel drive (Subaru, etc.), and the Jeep Wrangler outperformed the Landcruiser in technical off-roading, and captures that joy that comes with feeling like your vehicle has personality – even if it breaks down on occasion.

Durability and reliability are also the Grenadier’s main selling points. Ineos will need people who are willing to pay for something they can’t discern in a test-drive (durability & reliability), whereas power and handling are immediately obvious (and a similarly priced SUV will outperform a Grenadier on the tarmac – by a wide margin). Of course, if you are in the market for a Grenadier, you shouldn’t be cross-shopping with SUVs, but once the price gets over $80,000 a lot of folk are going to look at some of the other vehicles in that price range, and realize that 85K gets you a really sweet ride. Over the last 20 years, most Americans faced with this choice opted for the expensive sporty-SUV and not the expensive bullet-proof Landcruiser.

On the other hand, the Grenadier has some things going for it that the Landcruiser did not. The solid front axle will be a key selling point to real overlanders, and the Grenadier is also a lot “cooler” than the Landcruiser. It has a retro look that is really popular today, and the styling (both inside and out) appeals to every adult who played with a Tonka truck as a kid (you know what I mean). Will this be enough to support sales? Sometimes I think “yes” sometimes I think “no”. I guess we will see, but I hope for the Grenadier’s success.

See the difference.
If the Grenny came with those common American parts and traits you mentioned I would be a lot less interested, which is why is suggested somewhere else on here that I think they need to manufacture somewhere in the Americas a dedicated NA model.
Not that your preferences are superior or inferior you have hit the mark when you talk about local and common parts availability and support
Also volumes.
I think the current factory will have it's hands/lines full just servicing the rest of the world.
Particularly when the ute and long wheelbase versions come out.

 

[stickshifter]

See the difference.
If the Grenny came with those common American parts and traits you mentioned I would be a lot less interested, which is why is suggested somewhere else on here that I think they need to manufacture somewhere in the Americas a dedicated NA model.
Not that your preferences are superior or inferior you have hit the mark when you talk about local and common parts availability and support
Also volumes.
I think the current factory will have it's hands/lines full just servicing the rest of the world.
Particularly when the ute and long wheelbase versions come out.

Agreed. I think the Gren is a great vehicle, but it’s definitely a Euro-spec vehicle, and as such, it isn’t ideal for North America. There will still be lots of folk here who want one though.

 

[DDG]

Ineos has no reputation in North America. Obviously this is their first product. Those of us on this forum have followed the inception and gestation closely. We are (mostly) satisfied with their direction, design, and engineering. We have invested that time and put a degree of faith into it. The N American market is not going to start out red hot for this truck. For that to happen Ineos would’ve had to be much more proactive. They really have not stoked the flames the way other manufacturers do. Ford pushed the Bronco out from the moment a drawing first appeared to anyone. I recall non-automotive interested people commenting on the new Bronco the day after its reveal.

As early adopters, those reservation holders in NA will be able to get their Grenadier at whatever the MSRP is. Canadian prices will be a better value than in the states, for reasons that no one understands. After that first round of production, the Grenadier will develop a reputation and a desirability which will drive its price and market adjustments going forward for the second year. Or it will be that boxy looking new truck that breaks down all the time and can’t get parts for it, and will be gone in three years. As early adopters we are casting our bets with the first scenario. Personally, I can afford to buy what I want, but I never have nor ever will pay a dime over MSRP for a vehicle. I’m confident that this will play out the way it has dozens of times in my own experience.

TLDR: you’ll get your Grenadier for MSRP but your band wagon joining neighbor might not.

 

[globalgregors]

For that to happen Ineos would’ve had to be much more proactive. They really have not stoked the flames the way other manufacturers do.

Interesting perspective, welcome to the forum!

I’d rather see funds spent on engineering and testing before marketing. Not convinced that the millions spent by major manufacturers on grooming motoring journalists and the media is producing better cars. Notwithstanding Ford carpet bombing everyone about the exciting new Bronco.

Noted that US has not been first cab off the rank but in the launch markets Ineos has provided periodic access to prototype vehicles, which is unheard of.

Ultimately though, in terms of development engineering, is it truly an Ineos product or a rather a Magna product? Where one lands on that may have a big impact on one’s confidence to commit.

 

[DCPU]

I’m still really keen on the Grenadier; it is maybe 75% of what I would want in my “perfect overlander” - and that is higher than anything currently on the market.

Would you want it any higher? For many, these type of vehicles are a starting point to making them the way they want them & that secondary journey is also important.

NOTE – if the Grenadier becomes really successful, my guess is that BMW dealers will take over sales and service, and that would alleviate concerns over access to parts and service. However, if the Grenadier remains a low-volume niche vehicle, long-term ownership might be a bit of a nuisance, and if Ineos Automotive goes under, well, that’s a whole other problem.

I thought Ineos had been clear that they weren't chasing volume. It's a niche vehicle and hopefully remains so. Once you start looking at volume, you have to look at the needs of a larger and more diverse demographic and that inevitably leads to a dilution of the core values.

If the Grenadier came with Dana axles, I would order one without factory lockers, and I’d put in a set of Ox-Lockers: (1) no electronic actuator as with the Eaton lockers in the IG, (2) they do not unlock briefly when shifting between forward and reverse as with the Eaton lockers,

It's sold as an electronic actuator, but the only details I have found online refer to a single diode in the power relay. I wonder if it's Eaton marketing attempting to use a word which is meant to appeal to a wide audience but actually is a negative to many potential Grenadier owners?

Are we certain the Grenadier locker has the same ramp arrangement to engage/disengage? The current video is unclear but does seem to be a direct lateral movement to engage rather than a combination of radial and lateral.

 

[emax]

Probably a truck, but I've already got a truck I use for towing all over North America, but it's heavy and not great on sand. I'd love the grenadier to tow my boat for coastal camping/fishing. Will likely go with the Rivian R1S if the grenadier doesn't work out.

View attachment 7797931

Imagine a Grenadier towing an Airstream.

Nice picture!

 

[painter]

After that first round of production, the Grenadier will develop a reputation and a desirability which will drive its price and market adjustments going forward for the second year.

I think Ineos, when marketing in NA, would count the ROW sales as the first round and would delay NA pricing details accordingly. Whether that timing would be by design or adaptation I can not say. And I use "would" because I question if IA might be ambivalence toward the NA market - they certainly have been very quiet here.

Maybe the USA is the plum market and they are setting the stage, maybe they don't need or want it, or maybe they've run into difficulties (production, regulatory, obstruction, or other). Canada will probably be incidental regardless.

Bronco is an interesting comparison. I too was swept up in it. I remember all the earlier Bronco versions, I like the Ford product generally and have owned and worked on a number of models, drive by Ford stores often etc.

Ineos Corp ? had never heard of it before. Naturally early adopters should get preferred pricing - I'm hoping for that chance anyway.

There will be teething problems. How and where they are addressed will be interesting to watch.

 

[Mountain guy]

Hello All,

I have the same sticker concerns also here in Canada. Canada just adopted the luxury car tax. Will it be exempt in Canada like it was in Australia? Probably not. Having to pay the government over $10k in tax will be a deal breaker for me.
The price of parts is also important to me because my next car will be for my retirement and I would keep it 20 years. I cant afford to screw this up. Here in Calgary you need a new windshield every couple of years with all the rocks on the road. Will they be 2K to buy a new one?
So I'm kinda wondering if my head is screwed on straight as I'm wanting an expensive vehicle that I have not seen in person or test driven. lol

I still want one.

 

[DaveB]

I think Ineos, when marketing in NA, would count the ROW sales as the first round and would delay NA pricing details accordingly. Whether that timing would be by design or adaptation I can not say. And I use "would" because I question if IA might be ambivalence toward the NA market - they certainly have been very quiet here.

Maybe the USA is the plum market and they are setting the stage, maybe they don't need or want it, or maybe they've run into difficulties (production, regulatory, obstruction, or other). Canada will probably be incidental regardless.

Bronco is an interesting comparison. I too was swept up in it. I remember all the earlier Bronco versions, I like the Ford product generally and have owned and worked on a number of models, drive by Ford stores often etc.

Ineos Corp ? had never heard of it before. Naturally early adopters should get preferred pricing - I'm hoping for that chance anyway.

There will be teething problems. How and where they are addressed will be interesting to watch.

I don't think NA is a very exciting/interesting market for Ineos at all.
The business model, pricing, specifications, expectations and demands of the NA market do not have much synergy with Ineos plans at all.
With their limited manufacturing capacity Australia, Europe, UK, NZ & Africa have huge appeal and are easier to manage.
Particularly once the other models are added.
Their target audience is exactly where the Defender of old, the G wagon, Landcruiser, Prado, Hilux, Nissan Patrol, and similar vehicles sell the best.

 

[painter]

I don't think NA is a very exciting/interesting market for Ineos at all.
The business model, pricing, specifications, expectations and demands of the NA market do not have much synergy with Ineos plans at all.
With their limited manufacturing capacity Australia, Europe, UK, NZ & Africa have huge appeal and are easier to manage.
Particularly once the other models are added.
Their target audience is exactly where the Defender of old, the G wagon, Landcruiser, Prado, Hilux, Nissan Patrol, and similar vehicles sell the best.

So was the US initially used for feedback and advertising (picked up internationally) ?

 

[DaveB]

So was the US initially used for feedback and advertising (picked up internationally) ?

I don't really know but the US isn't that important for international marketing.
They said very early that it wasn't one of their primary target markets.
I guess any international company would want to get market potential information from somewhere as large a population and car culture as the US.
from second hand information I have seen they have had less(%) interest from NA than from easier markets like UK, Europe & Australia

 

[painter]

I don't really know but the US isn't that important for international marketing.

And yet, we find ourselves here ....


... not that l mind

 

[DaveB]

And yet, we find ourselves here ....


... not that l mind

I don't mean anything negative about the US it's just that any information gathered only relates to the US/NA because the rest of the world is so different
Very few countries import American vehicles and the ones that do are mainly taking the BMW X series.
The typical American 4WD style is only exported in very small numbers, so any market data is very localised.
Ineos may be more interested to know how many people in the NA market will may be interested in their standard configuration, not what changes they have to make to get a large share of the NA market.
If the answer is 10,000 Ineos would probably say Ok.
Most manufacturers wouldn't bother unless it was one model in a range of models.
Then they still might say no.

 

[DDG]

The US economy is weird, particularly the automotive side. Only 5% of the world’s population but around 20% of global per capita production and wealth. China is right there in spending on vehicles as a country. Still that’s only roughly half of all vehicles sold between US and China. INEOS has all the market they truly need in Europe, Australia/NZ, and Middle East/Africa. I’m very grateful they’d go through the hassle of bringing the Grenadier to N America. They absolutely do not need that market to succeed.

 

[DaveB]

The US economy is weird, particularly the automotive side. Only 5% of the world’s population but around 20% of global per capita production and wealth. China is right there in spending on vehicles as a country. Still that’s only roughly half of all vehicles sold between US and China. INEOS has all the market they truly need in Europe, Australia/NZ, and Middle East/Africa. I’m very grateful they’d go through the hassle of bringing the Grenadier to N America. They absolutely do not need that market to succeed.

A little bit more than 20% Surprising t a small country like Australia with only 25 Million people makes it into the top ten

 

[rchrds]

Apart from the transfer case, which is made by Tremec in Mexico, none of the parts are sourced from North America. This creates an added concern around part-availability and access to service. NOTE – if the Grenadier becomes really successful, my guess is that BMW dealers will take over sales and service, and that would alleviate concerns over access to parts and service. However, if the Grenadier remains a low-volume niche vehicle, long-term ownership might be a bit of a nuisance, and if Ineos Automotive goes under, well, that’s a whole other problem.

This right here is my major concern. I'm on the fence right now- at the price we're talking about in here I can get a fully worked out TRD Tacoma to replace my 2004 TRD Tacoma which has 350k miles on it. Reliability of the parts and availability of the parts (less service, I do most of that myself) is a major concern for me. I'm also less worried about the timeframe- I'm hoping to see a Hybrid Tacoma in 2024- so waiting that long to make my final decision, and see what Toyota brings to the market works for me. It sure wouldn't hurt my feelings to see much better gas mileage, as much as I'd like to be driving a Grenadier.

 

[DaveB]

This right here is my major concern. I'm on the fence right now- at the price we're talking about in here I can get a fully worked out TRD Tacoma to replace my 2004 TRD Tacoma which has 350k miles on it. Reliability of the parts and availability of the parts (less service, I do most of that myself) is a major concern for me. I'm also less worried about the timeframe- I'm hoping to see a Hybrid Tacoma in 2024- so waiting that long to make my final decision, and see what Toyota brings to the market works for me. It sure wouldn't hurt my feelings to see much better gas mileage, as much as I'd like to be driving a Grenadier.

I think if you are weighing up between a TRD/hybrid Tacoma and Grenadier then the Grenadier will never win.
Tacoma doesn't come to Australia but no doubt it is excellent.
Just a completely different type of vehicle to the Grenadier.