Potential Buyer Having trouble with Marketing vs. Reality

[irtmks]

So we are considering moving from a Ford Raptor to a Trialmaster.

Acknowledging that I don't "need" an Ineos vehicle and that my desire would be more of a "want," I strive to understand the Company, the Marketing, and the Vehicle as a total purchase. I simply want to "buy-in" to the whole package.

Where I am struggling is with the BMW portion of that overall package. Please understand, I do have bias based on a many year interaction (4 BMW's I believe) with the company. I also worked as an Engineer for 18 years for a company in Freudenstadt, Germany. Yes, I do hold some historic bias.

The struggle that bothers me is the Marketing notion that this Grenadier is a solid mule of a beast that, like years gone by vehicles can traverse the worst and most remote parts of the globe. When a "Service Center" is not convenient as you explore Chad Africa, or the Australian Western Plateau, you simply do as we old timers did, pull out the wrenches, the wire, the tape and fix whatever is needed. I have watched with great interest this Marketing ideal explained and viewed in so many videos and literature.

If this was really, really the intent, why must we, must we, must we find a BMW Service Center to get an oil change? The same greasy, dusty, dirty fellow that can fix anything on his Grenadier seemingly can't change the oil? Must I return from my remote expedition so I can have a BMW Service Center read or reset a fault code? Apparently the same fellow who is told you have the best "Old School" modern vehicles that can go anywhere on this planet is NOT capable of plugging a dongle into the OBD2 port and pushing a button named "clr." What? The hypocrisy seems either overlooked or insulting, I am not yet judging.

 

[anand]

If this was really, really the intent, why must we, must we, must we find a BMW Service Center to get an oil change? The same greasy, dusty, dirty fellow that can fix anything on his Grenadier seemingly can't change the oil? Must I return from my remote expedition so I can have a BMW Service Center read or reset a fault code? Apparently the same fellow who is told you have the best "Old School" modern vehicles that can go anywhere on this planet is NOT capable of plugging a dongle into the OBD2 port and pushing a button named "clr." What? The hypocrisy seems either overlooked or insulting, I am not yet judging.

Any one can do the oil change, resetting the service indicator, and this time, is only by an Ineos dealer (BMW cannot do this). BMW scan tools cannot natively read anything other than generic OBD2 codes from the vehicle like any one else can.

Generic OBD2 scan tools can read and clear engine DTCs just fine.

Have less tech than this in 2024 is, unfortunately, simply not feasible in a new vehicle

 

[Jeremy996]

The marketing is a little fanciful - rugged is one thing, but it is impossible to get a modern vehicle type approved without a load of electronics covering emissions, brakes, ADAS, eCall and that is before you consider the electronic junk now considered essential like infotainment and central locking.

Ineos Automotive was caught out by the various requirements for the logging of emissions based maintenance by the manufacturer, (one of the reasons for the delay on the manual release), but they did consider that the software had to allow the vehicle some resilience if a sensor went down. Components have been chosen for service life and ruggedness and are often massive compared to the alternatives, that's why the Grenadier is so heavy. The BMW engine is tuned specially for torque and durability, now owners want to tweak them up!

If you want a more 'mechanical' vehicle, you must buy an old one! (And deal with the old-school issues inherent in them - my LR110CSW 200Tdi needed heavy maintenance after 200,000 miles, so was fit to be changed).

 

[globalgregors]

So we are considering moving from a Ford Raptor to a Trialmaster.

Acknowledging that I don't "need" an Ineos vehicle and that my desire would be more of a "want," I strive to understand the Company, the Marketing, and the Vehicle as a total purchase. I simply want to "buy-in" to the whole package.

Where I am struggling is with the BMW portion of that overall package. Please understand, I do have bias based on a many year interaction (4 BMW's I believe) with the company. I also worked as an Engineer for 18 years for a company in Freudenstadt, Germany. Yes, I do hold some historic bias.

The struggle that bothers me is the Marketing notion that this Grenadier is a solid mule of a beast that, like years gone by vehicles can traverse the worst and most remote parts of the globe. When a "Service Center" is not convenient as you explore Chad Africa, or the Australian Western Plateau, you simply do as we old timers did, pull out the wrenches, the wire, the tape and fix whatever is needed. I have watched with great interest this Marketing ideal explained and viewed in so many videos and literature.

If this was really, really the intent, why must we, must we, must we find a BMW Service Center to get an oil change? The same greasy, dusty, dirty fellow that can fix anything on his Grenadier seemingly can't change the oil? Must I return from my remote expedition so I can have a BMW Service Center read or reset a fault code? Apparently the same fellow who is told you have the best "Old School" modern vehicles that can go anywhere on this planet is NOT capable of plugging a dongle into the OBD2 port and pushing a button named "clr." What? The hypocrisy seems either overlooked or insulting, I am not yet judging.

Having now driven ours across both the Australian Western Plateau and also North America we can confirm that the vehicle delivers on the promise.

Respondents above have already corrected the misconceptions in your post, but please feel free to DM with any questions regarding remote use, interacting with the Ineos mothership etc.

We’ve received excellent support from Ineos throughout, and have enjoyed the emerging international community that comes along with owning a marque like this.

 

[landmannnn]

There are many different expectations of the vehicle.

On one hand people are saying that there are too many computers, not enough underbody protection or big enough tyres to drive through dangerous zones in Africa or the Australian desert. You can definitely do this (if you dare) although you will be spending considerable amounts of money to prepare the vehicle for expeditions, as with most vehicles.

On the other hand people are complaining about the sound system, seat comfort or cup holders. Again they are spending thousands on audio upgrades and fancy leather.

The vehicle is in fact a platform to do as much or as little as you want. Upgrades and modifications are not difficult, the platform has been made in such a way that most changes are straightforward.

The Grenadier is not for everybody, not at all. But for the vast majority of owners they are please with their choice.

 

[rur42]

Speaking to your marketing promise... the fix it yourself, anywhere, anytime, with great part availability, repair manual, etc. I feel the same, a little bit let down. But it's early days still and I think they'll get that sorted eventually. I wouldn't let that hold you back. In the meantime, there's lots of good information and support on these forums.

 

[Toot]

I echo the others. Overall for what it is I love it and think they nailed it. I have a number of cars including a gt3, 911 turbo s, g wagon and Yukon… Lately my shit eating grin/happiness factor has been highest in the Grenadier. It just checks a box for me in so many ways and many of the quirks/faults end up being part of what makes it great I think. So, negating the dealer network stuff, which is getting better every other week it seems, I give the car itself 10/10 - only you can decide if you’re close enough to a dealer to be ok though.

Massive caveats however*** I use mine to bop around the Hamptons and go upstate in New York, Connecticut, etc etc. I plan to ship it out west in the spring and do some trips/exploring out there. It sounds like this won’t be your primary vehicle. I do think if this is going to be a primary vehicle you may miss things other cars have/come standard with- think tech and comfort packages; there are no ventilated seats, Burmester sound systems, nor surround view cameras to be found in the Grenadier, yet I don’t care. I have yet to say to myself anything along the lines of “oh man this would really be great if only it had heated cup holders, autopilot, and massage seat!” All that kind of stuff would detract from the experience IMO. And, if I really wanted a “tech-forward,” massage capable, iPad with wheels, I’d just get a Tesla. Having owned pick-ups and Jeeps in the past, I feel like this is a different and better experience, for me. I do, however, only go on the interstate if I have to. If I need to drive into NYC, Boston, DC or something I’m taking the Yukon or something else that’s a better highway cruiser. So I think a huge part of my love/non-annoyance has to do with that I don’t need to use it as a primary vehicle and generally try to avoid long commutes/trips unless it’s necessary to end up get off-road and exploring somewhere.

Also, some fair warning; the after market parts market is getting very robust and one modification tends to lead to another! I’ve really enjoyed modifying mine so far. My better half loves it too but frequently laments, “I wish you would obsess over me or things that actually matter like you obsess over that car.” Needless to say, her priorities need adjustment!

In summary; if it’s an additional car for you and geared towards what it’s meant to do vs. commuting 45 mins on the interstate everyday, I say get one! You won’t regret it!

Hope this helps.

 

[Dual Grenny Guy]

I echo the others. Overall for what it is I love it and think they nailed it. I have a number of cars including a gt3, 911 turbo s, g wagon and Yukon… Lately my shit eating grin/happiness factor has been highest in the Grenadier. It just checks a box for me in so many ways and many of the quirks/faults end up being part of what makes it great I think. So negating the dealer network stuff which is getting better every other week it seems, I give the car itself 10/10 - only you can decide if you’re close enough to a dealer to be ok though.

Massive caveats however*** I use mine to bop around the Hamptons and go upstate in New York, Connecticut, etc etc. I plan to ship it out west in the spring and do some trips/exploring out there. It sounds like this won’t be your primary vehicle. I do think if this is going to be a primary vehicle you may miss things other cars have/come standard with- think tech and comfort packages; there are no ventilated seats, Burmester sound systems, nor surround view cameras to be found in the Grenadier, yet I don’t care. I have yet to say to myself anything along the lines of “oh man this would really be great if only it had heated cup holders, autopilot, and massage seat!” All that kind of stuff would detract from the experience IMO. And, if I really wanted a “tech-forward,” massage capable, iPad with wheels, I’d just get a Tesla. Having owned pick-ups and Jeeps in the past, I feel like this is a different and better experience, for me. I do, however, only go on the interstate if I have to. If I need to drive into NYC, Boston, DC or something I’m taking the Yukon or something else that’s a better highway cruiser. So I think a huge part of my love/non-annoyance has to do with that I don’t need to use it as a primary vehicle and generally try to avoid long commutes/trips unless it’s necessary to get off-road somewhere.

Also some fair warning; the after market parts market is getting very robust and one modification tends to lead to another! I’ve really enjoyed modifying mine so far.

In summary; if it’s an additional car for you and geared towards what it’s meant to do vs. commuting 45 mins on the interstate everyday, I say get one! You won’t regret it!

Hope this helps.

“ I have a number of cars including a gt3, 911 turbo s, g wagon and Yukon…”…..you had me at “ I have a number of cars” then lost me at “Yukon”……I joke I joke I kid I kid….i had one years ago myself……..

 

[Toot]

“ I have a number of cars including a gt3, 911 turbo s, g wagon and Yukon…”…..you had me at “ I have a number of cars” then lost me at “Yukon”……I joke I joke I kid I kid….i had one years ago myself……..

Ha! Well the Yukon is my number 2, I sprung for the Denali ultimate in ‘23 when it came out and absolutely love it. Wifey has the g wagon, personally I hate that car and have been begging her to sell it for a while now- horrible optics. When she complains about people wanting to talk to her about it everywhere/getting approached, I explain the optics and my distain for them and she goes “but it’s so high up, I love it.” Oh well. Very well built and rock solid feeling though.

 

[Dual Grenny Guy]

Ha! Well the Yukon is my number 2, I sprung for the Denali ultimate in ‘23 when it came out and absolutely love it. Wifey has the g wagon, personally I hate that car and have been begging her to sell it for a while now- horrible optics. When she complains about people wanting to talk to her about it everywhere/getting approached, I explain the optics and my distain for them and she goes “but it’s so high up, I love it.” Oh well. Very well built and rock solid feeling though.

Yea we know the “wifey’s” are all well versed in everything automobile right (ok legitimately some may be not knocking the females that do post here)? I’m not even going to say all the “for looks only” rides mine has had over the years!!

Btw, you whiffed right over the most important ones…..”THE PORSCHE’s”!!! I have literally been debating on a 911 GT3RS for years but just can’t see paying $250-300k plus on one ride (yea can get a used one for what $175k, still a lot) when that same amount can get me 2-3 nice rides. And yes, I actually could pull that trigger but I’m not Sir Jim wealthy. If I was and had a Jay Leno garage (mixture) or Seinfeld’s Porsche collection (not even gonna bring in the Sultan of Brunei‘s collection as that’s just well ridiculous), then maybe I would have one. Plus I love to drive my vehicles and would be very hesitant putting a $250k plus ride on the roads where I live, these mofo’s can’t drive!!! That’s one of the many reasons I love the tanks/Grenny’s!!!!

Sorry OP, like you will learn (see that you just became a member this week), that most threads seem to go off topic quit often on the ole Grenny forum. My advise to you, just keep reading and posting and we will either help persuade you off that fence. Hopefully to the side of ownership. Only you can ultimately make that call, but if you read between the lines there are many members on here that have owned or currently do own multiple vehicles (nice ones at that) and the Grenadier is usually their favorite and most used daily driver. That says a lot!!! Good luck.

 

[trobex]

Any one can do the oil change, resetting the service indicator, and this time, is only by an Ineos dealer (BMW cannot do this). BMW scan tools cannot natively read anything other than generic OBD2 codes from the vehicle like any one else can.

Generic OBD2 scan tools can read and clear engine DTCs just fine.

Have less tech than this in 2024 is, unfortunately, simply not feasible in a new vehicle

The 2024 70 series have nearly no tech - quite literally the display screen looks like an 80s reverse camera screen.

 

[CRH]

Only available in Japan, Australia, South Africa, UAE and Venezuela though.
I’m sure a bunch of folks in the US would like to get their hands on one.

Sadly, regulations are the reasons we can never have what we want and it's only getting worse. Buy now before it's too late

 

[globalgregors]

Sadly, regulations are the reasons we can never have what we want and it's only getting worse. Buy now before it's too late

Yeah, deleted as I realised that was incorrect. Actually sold in 170 countries including the US, albeit in that case only to commercial buyers.

 

[bikesandguitars]

The Raptor is becoming somewhat de rigueur around the Old Town Scottsdale and Biltmore neighborhoods. It’s to the point that you might have trouble figuring out which Raptor is yours when you get to the parking lot. I would remind you that you have a new Ineos dealership in Glendale and Owl Manufacturing just down the street. You have relatively easy access to dealer maintenance and killer aftermarket upgrades, much moreso than the vast majority of owners. For instance, my dealer is 5 hours round trip.

As others have said, it’s the service reminders that can’t be accessed by mere mortals - yet. Supposedly, more service centers and a diagnostic / repair manual are in the works. But if having a dealer in your backyard and some of the best aftermarket upgrades a stones throw away still isn’t good enough, play it safe and get the Raptor.

You can always kick yourself later.

 

[Toot]

The Raptor is becoming somewhat de rigueur around the Old Town Scottsdale and Biltmore neighborhoods. It’s to the point that you might have trouble figuring out which Raptor is yours when you get to the parking lot. I would remind you that you have a new Ineos dealership in Glendale and Owl Manufacturing just down the street. You have relatively easy access to dealer maintenance and killer aftermarket upgrades, much moreso than the vast majority of owners. For instance, my dealer is 5 hours round trip.

As others have said, it’s the service reminders that can’t be accessed by mere mortals - yet. Supposedly, more service centers and a diagnostic / repair manual are in the works. But if having a dealer in your backyard and some of the best aftermarket upgrades a stones throw away still isn’t good enough, play it safe and get the Raptor.

You can always kick yourself later.

Exactly!

 

[Dual Grenny Guy]

The Raptor is becoming somewhat de rigueur around the Old Town Scottsdale and Biltmore neighborhoods. It’s to the point that you might have trouble figuring out which Raptor is yours when you get to the parking lot. I would remind you that you have a new Ineos dealership in Glendale and Owl Manufacturing just down the street. You have relatively easy access to dealer maintenance and killer aftermarket upgrades, much moreso than the vast majority of owners. For instance, my dealer is 5 hours round trip.

As others have said, it’s the service reminders that can’t be accessed by mere mortals - yet. Supposedly, more service centers and a diagnostic / repair manual are in the works. But if having a dealer in your backyard and some of the best aftermarket upgrades a stones throw away still isn’t good enough, play it safe and get the Raptor.

You can always kick yourself later.

Man I ALMOST pulled the trigger on the Raptor R last year. The “R” version I am sure you know is super hard to get. I have pretty good relationships with several dealers and was on a waiting list at two Ford dealers as I really wanted one. Got the call from one of them and was driving up the next day to get it when what you said just hit me like a brick to the head. Raptors are everywhere in abundance. Heck I have seen 3-4 in a line at the stop light locally. The “R” may have 37’s instead of 35’s and more horsepower (it is very fast for a truck), but just having a painted “R” here and there doesn’t ultimately change the fact it’s a Raptor. No hate on those that have them, they are just everywhere now. I am so glad I passed, as that pass is what got me looking at the Grenadier and now here I am. One of the best, if not the best, vehicle purchases I have ever made. I really do love these rides if you can’t tell!!

 

[Toot]

Man I ALMOST pulled the trigger on the Raptor R last year. The “R” version I am sure you know is super hard to get. I have pretty good relationships with several dealers and was on a waiting list at two Ford dealers as I really wanted one. Got the call from one of them and was driving up the next day to get it when what you said just hit me like a brick to the head. Raptors are everywhere in abundance. Heck I have seen 3-4 in a line at the stop light locally. The “R” may have 37’s instead of 35’s and more horsepower (it is very fast for a truck), but just having a painted “R” here and there doesn’t ultimately change the fact it’s a Raptor. No hate on those that have them, they are just everywhere now. I am so glad I passed, as that pass is what got me looking at the Grenadier and now here I am. One of the best, if not the best, vehicle purchases I have ever made. I really do love these rides if you can’t tell!!

Agree. Personally speaking, I don’t love the over stylized, testosterone fueled, para-military design language a lot of American trucks have adopted, especially when modifying them. I was going to get a Jeep rubicon again before the grenadier but the mods popular and available for the jeeps just make them look very “punisher t shirt” and I work in the finance world so maybe if I was in my 20s it would work (never mind that I couldn’t afford a rubicon or mods then!) but there’s just no way I could meet clients in a roided out Jeep. I find even the highly modified Grenadiers just look the part. Elegant, not assaulting your mental space, “purpose built” vs. angry young man with PP envy and a big gun.

waxing over.

 

[Zimm]

To the Op. The body and chassis hit the mark. Somewhere in the design phase, the "utilitarian" farm truck goal of the series and defenders got caught up in the realities of pricing for profit and amenities, and we ended up with a BMW drivetrain, dealercentric ownership and a not quite premium, but yet not utilitarian interior. For me, I would have liked it 5g cheaper in price and completely commercial inside or 5g more with new defender level interior. a few more inches of load space, making it more Defender than Gwagon in stature and usability would have been nice, but I'll live. All the other design compromises I've been able to work around, and it's worth it to me to have something different, with doors in the rear, bumpers, a drip rail, and a square body.

So yea, the truck ends up leaning more on it's marketing image than its reality, but, it has character, isn't a modern styling blob, and it'll get the job done if not to the level of perfection we dreamed.

 

[Psignore00]

what about BMW is the problem?

Reliability? This B58 engine is pretty much the most reliable bmw built

Longevity? How many other manufacturers talk about DETUNING their engine? This is the only one I can recall. About 100 less hp in this than in a Supra or X5 and I buy-in that this leads to more longevity.

Having to go to dealer? Most small manufacturers will be like this. I think this is more of a factor for people who don’t live close, I’m 25 miles from mine.

 

[Znarfgh]

To the Op. The body and chassis hit the mark. Somewhere in the design phase, the "utilitarian" farm truck goal of the series and defenders got caught up in the realities of pricing for profit and amenities, and we ended up with a BMW drivetrain, dealercentric ownership and a not quite premium, but yet not utilitarian interior. For me, I would have liked it 5g cheaper in price and completely commercial inside or 5g more with new defender level interior. a few more inches of load space, making it more Defender than Gwagon in stature and usability would have been nice, but I'll live. All the other design compromises I've been able to work around, and it's worth it to me to have something different, with doors in the rear, bumpers, a drip rail, and a square body.

So yea, the truck ends up leaning more on it's marketing image than its reality, but, it has character, isn't a modern styling blob, and it'll get the job done if not to the level of perfection we dreamed.

Reality of life today is that you can't sell an oil/petrol burner in any major market without emission control measures such as dpf/egr/adblue etc.

I would have been happy with a NIssan TD42 engine but again it was killed because of emissions legislation. Also, it only produced 78kW from a 4.2 litre straight six diesel but it was bullet proof and easy to repair.

Modern 3 litre straight six diesels can produce up to 250kW with modern injection systems that are far more vulnerable than the old indirect injection diesel's.

As already stated, legislation and homologation put manufacturers to the test and add cost. Sadly for us, but not the environment, new old school vehicles are dead.