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Potential Buyer Having trouble with Marketing vs. Reality

WanderingSniper

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Just don’t engage, or as Twain said: “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience”

I believe he is here to stir the pot.
Compared you who put down Jeep rock crawlers while humble bragging about your boat and cars? I owned Jeeps for 11 years and just sold mine for the Grenadier, and as an actual member of the military I don't need to show people my PP or a big gun. I wasn't going to say anything in the last post but then you posted this. Maybe quit while you're ahead and keep it civil.
 

Toot

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Compared you who put down Jeep rock crawlers while humble bragging about your boat and cars? I owned Jeeps for 11 years and just sold mine for the Grenadier, and as an actual member of the military I don't need to show people my PP or a big gun. I wasn't going to say anything in the last post but then you posted this. Maybe quit while you're ahead and keep it civil.
:D
 

bikesandguitars

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Reality of life today is that you can't sell an oil/petrol burner in any major market without emission control measures such as dpf/egr/adblue etc.

I would have been happy with a NIssan TD42 engine but again it was killed because of emissions legislation. Also, it only produced 78kW from a 4.2 litre straight six diesel but it was bullet proof and easy to repair.

Modern 3 litre straight six diesels can produce up to 250kW with modern injection systems that are far more vulnerable than the old indirect injection diesel's.

As already stated, legislation and homologation put manufacturers to the test and add cost. Sadly for us, but not the environment, new old school vehicles are dead.
I sold my diesel Gladiator Rubicon for this exact reason. The Gladiator was a great platform for the diesel - I think it’s the engine the truck should’ve had from the beginning. When it worked as planned, it was exceptional. Unfortunately, the myriad sensors, EGR, waste gates, etc., made it far too complicated. I was irregularly, but frequently enough, being put in to limp mode when towing on an extended incline - which is virtually every road in western Colorado. I fear the reliability and performance of the diesel engine is doomed in the U.S.
 

bikesandguitars

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Regarding the B58’s reliability. I am not a master mechanic, not even close. I have had my own very unreliable experience with a BMW engine - the N54. I was initially put-off when I first read that Ineos had selected BMW to provide the engine. It was a deal breaker for me. Then I was informed that Toyota had also selected this exact same BMW engine for the new Supra. I happen to hold Toyota in very high regard when it comes to reliability. So I deferred to the experts. I imagined that Toyota had done their homework.

As a great man once said, “I can get a good look at a T-Bone by sticking my head up a bull's ass, but I'd rather take the butcher's word for it”.

The debate on the B58 is moot. We all need to check back after 60,000 miles.
 

Mountain4x4

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The truck seems pretty easy to work on, but anywhere you are in the middle of nowhere you will have trouble finding service. One of the first models of the line circum navigated Africa, as it was one of the first produced they loaded up parts, had mechanics on stand by for months.............And nothing broke :LOL: Ineos guy was pissed, because he was hoping for a company paid trip to Africa for a rescue. Some of that was in areas with no roads. Back from Moab with 75 Grenadiers ( and a permit for only 50 so that was all allowed on the trail rides, full disclosure next year allowed 300 ) and, you guessed it...Its early, but reliability has been strong, modifications and work so far pretty easy. You also know you are wheeling something over built on a level you wont find anywhere else.

Marketing Vs Reality

Bronco -- Killer design and 35s factory -- So under engineered drivetrain swaps will be needed to be reliable.
New Land Cruiser -- The ultimate new off roader with Toyota reliability -- Delicate IFS, unreliable new bean counter drive train and hard to mod
Jeep Rubicon -- Ready to hit hard core trails - - Nope, things need beefed up, lifted first and reliability can be suspect
Every single AWD street card today -- Go anywhere bro! -- They are made for street use only

While Ineos has missed a few marks, the end product is over built, exceptionally reliable for a new build and drama free on the hard stuff.
 

CrazyOldMan

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Here is a long term review, of the Grenadier, by a self confessed Toyota diehard and respected 4X4 reviewer Ronny Dahl. He was reviewing the diesel engine model, not available in the US.

View: https://youtu.be/x-Y7DNMUwAI

View: https://youtu.be/bFydZe_TB-0

View: https://youtu.be/5JP6U7twA3Y

View: https://youtu.be/mDSMF_WYvCg

View: https://youtu.be/V0ltQsyWQvU

The final trip before handing it back, where he says "This is a fantastic 4x4 built for offroad... I am definitely going to miss it.":
https://youtu.be/E9l4WcBcqRM
Enjoying yourself, Doc? Just rubbing the diesel in our faces at every opportunity? So hurtful - so spiteful - so needlessly cruel.
 

[ Adam ]

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As a great man once said, “I can get a good look at a T-Bone by sticking my head up a bull's ass, but I'd rather take the butcher's word for it”.

The debate on the B58 is moot. We all need to check back after 60,000 miles.
It won't be long - many are above 15k and counting - I'm at nearly 18 and not even a year in.

Excited Chris Farley GIF
 

landmannnn

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Compared you who put down Jeep rock crawlers while humble bragging about your boat and cars? I owned Jeeps for 11 years and just sold mine for the Grenadier, and as an actual member of the military I don't need to show people my PP or a big gun. I wasn't going to say anything in the last post but then you posted this. Maybe quit while you're ahead and keep it civil.
I don't think he was talking about you. He was probably talking about that troll, I've blocked him so no idea what trash he was talking.
 

TheDocAUS

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Enjoying yourself, Doc? Just rubbing the diesel in our faces at every opportunity? So hurtful - so spiteful - so needlessly cruel.
Not really, just trying to be accurate, but the diesels are really good now that you mention it. :)

I commonly post engine type and model, I am not rubbing anything in, it was a fact. It helps people understand and pick up differences between models and countries.
 
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Dual Grenny Guy

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Compared you who put down Jeep rock crawlers while humble bragging about your boat and cars? I owned Jeeps for 11 years and just sold mine for the Grenadier, and as an actual member of the military I don't need to show people my PP or a big gun. I wasn't going to say anything in the last post but then you posted this. Maybe quit while you're ahead and keep it civil.
Thank you for your service. What branch? I was active duty Army for many years. I am a huge military guy, but Jeeps…..well…..I’m only picking. I have said before I don’t care what anyone owns as long as they are happy. Don’t buy or customize anything unless it makes YOU happy. 👍
 

Dual Grenny Guy

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Regarding the B58’s reliability. I am not a master mechanic, not even close. I have had my own very unreliable experience with a BMW engine - the N54. I was initially put-off when I first read that Ineos had selected BMW to provide the engine. It was a deal breaker for me. Then I was informed that Toyota had also selected this exact same BMW engine for the new Supra. I happen to hold Toyota in very high regard when it comes to reliability. So I deferred to the experts. I imagined that Toyota had done their homework.

As a great man once said, “I can get a good look at a T-Bone by sticking my head up a bull's ass, but I'd rather take the butcher's word for it”.

The debate on the B58 is moot. We all need to check back after 60,000 miles.
You wrote “ I happen to hold Toyota in very high regard when it comes to reliability”…..
Then I assume you know what’s going on with their new twin turbo v6? I have a 2022 Tundra and just waiting on that recall letter or email. So far around like 100k newer Tundra’s are getting entire engine replacements. Many others have lots of mechanical issues. I tried to view the Tundra forum page but had way too many negative people on it. This forum has some, but most are non owners. The Tundra forum were all owners complaining. Knock on wood, mine has been great since I bought it new. 🤞 Hate to hear about your bad experience with a BMW engine. The ones I have owned have been some of the smoothest running engines I have ever owned. Hey at least we agree on your last paragraph, and only time and miles will tell if the b58 was a good choice by Ineos. 👍
 

Dual Grenny Guy

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I don't think he was talking about you. He was probably talking about that troll, I've blocked him so no idea what trash he was talking.
Wait you can block someone on here? For real? How does it work? If that person posts in a thread you are following you just don’t get notified by his post only? Do tell……..
 

landmannnn

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Wait you can block someone on here? For real? How does it work? If that person posts in a thread you are following you just don’t get notified by his post only? Do tell……..
Click on the picture next to their name. Then in the lower middle of the pop up, click the ignore box.
 

Tazzieman

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And when someone posts a response to a quote of something from your enemy you then feel compelled to respond to - it gets weird.
Better not to tie yourself up in teenage emotional knots on an international anonymous user forum 😉
 

bikesandguitars

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You wrote “ I happen to hold Toyota in very high regard when it comes to reliability”…..
Then I assume you know what’s going on with their new twin turbo v6? I have a 2022 Tundra and just waiting on that recall letter or email. So far around like 100k newer Tundra’s are getting entire engine replacements. Many others have lots of mechanical issues. I tried to view the Tundra forum page but had way too many negative people on it. This forum has some, but most are non owners. The Tundra forum were all owners complaining. Knock on wood, mine has been great since I bought it new. 🤞 Hate to hear about your bad experience with a BMW engine. The ones I have owned have been some of the smoothest running engines I have ever owned. Hey at least we agree on your last paragraph, and only time and miles will tell if the b58 was a good choice by Ineos. 👍

Yes, very aware of the imploding Tunda’s. But, believe it or not, even with the shrapnel issue on the 2022 / 2023 models, the Tundra is still the world’s most reliable, long lasting vehicle based on total mileage and years in service according to Motor1. I’ve owned my fair share of Toyota’s. They’ve all been bullet proof.

Toyota / Lexus sits atop the JD Power and Consumer Reports list as the most reliable brand.
BMW shows up at a respectable ninth place overall and third in luxury brands behind Lexus and Porsche, according to the same sources.

The BMW N54 engine I had troubles with was the first mass produced twin turbo from BMW. It was notorious for the rate of failure from the high pressure fuel pump. BMW eventually recalled 132,000 vehicles to replace the HPFP. The HPFP was a $1,200 part that failed due to a $2.00 o-ring.
I have faith that the BMW B58 will fare much better. That faith is instilled mainly by Toyota.
 

Toot

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I don't think he was talking about you. He was probably talking about that troll, I've blocked him so no idea what trash he was talking.
No I meant in general. I’ve owned a Jeep, enjoy renting a Jeep, love a Jeep. I especially like those by RubiTrux out of Boone- they do a nice job and tend to steer very clear of the aesthetic I’m referring to. My perhaps poorly articulated point was that a lot of OEM companies and aftermarket manufacturers for American trucks have gone very very aggressive / in your face with their design language. In my opinion. And for me, I don’t like it.

I was actually looking at a Wrangler from Rubi when I ultimately decided to go with the Grenadier for my off roader. Probably would have gone with both if the better half would allow it. I knew that I wanted to heavily modify whatever I got and I just felt like the best looking jeep -for me- was a factory Jeep. The Grenadier just looked more refined and came with the added bonus -for me- of betting on the underdog.

I’d add I’m probably a bit biased, as you many of you know we are between New York and Florida. SoFlo Jeeps is near our neighborhood. They typify what I’m referring to. I have yet to see anyone over 30 driving one like that though 🤷🏼‍♂️. If you are, and you like it, you do you, I’m just doing me. I added some general visual pics of my modified Jeep issue -again for me- below. It’s just something I wouldn’t be seen in. I believe it communicates a message that I have no interest in communicating, and attracts attention that I’m not looking for.

As for the boat, maybe it’s a humble brag but wasn’t intended that way. The engines on it served as a great example of how a given engine may be detuned/uptuned? for a given application, which was directly relevant to the conversation; I.e. how a manufacturer tunes an engine is predominantly an engineering decision, not a cost savings or cutting corners decision. I suppose I could have said “I have lots of personal experience with XYZ” vs. “I have this in my boat.” Apologies if I hurt delicate sensibilities. That said, if you find yourself undamaged and you’re out east on Long Island, open door policy for boat rides 🤣

As for big guns, I like and own. I just don’t want to look like I’m armed to the teeth and fit for purpose in Afghanistan while going past an elementary school on my way to get milk. 🥛
 

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CrazyOldMan

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No I meant in general. I’ve owned a Jeep, enjoy renting a Jeep, love a Jeep. I especially like those by RubiTrux out of Boone- they do a nice job and tend to steer very clear of the aesthetic I’m referring to. My perhaps poorly articulated point was that a lot of OEM companies and aftermarket manufacturers for American trucks have gone very very aggressive / in your face with their design language. In my opinion. And for me, I don’t like it.

I was actually looking at a Wrangler from Rubi when I ultimately decided to go with the Grenadier for my off roader. Probably would have gone with both if the better half would allow it. I knew that I wanted to heavily modify whatever I got and I just felt like the best looking jeep -for me- was a factory Jeep. The Grenadier just looked more refined and came with the added bonus -for me- of betting on the underdog.

I’d add I’m probably a bit biased, as you many of you know we are between New York and Florida. SoFlo Jeeps is near our neighborhood. They typify what I’m referring to. I have yet to see anyone over 30 driving one like that though 🤷🏼‍♂️. If you are, and you like it, you do you, I’m just doing me. I added some general visual pics of my modified Jeep issue -again for me- below. It’s just something I wouldn’t be seen in. I believe it communicates a message that I have no interest in communicating, and attracts attention that I’m not looking for.

As for the boat, maybe it’s a humble brag but wasn’t intended that way. The engines on it served as a great example of how a given engine may be detuned/uptuned? for a given application, which was directly relevant to the conversation; I.e. how a manufacturer tunes an engine is predominantly an engineering decision, not a cost savings or cutting corners decision. I suppose I could have said “I have lots of personal experience with XYZ” vs. “I have this in my boat.” Apologies if I hurt delicate sensibilities. That said, if you find yourself undamaged and you’re out east on Long Island, open door policy for boat rides 🤣

As for big guns, I like and own. I just don’t want to look like I’m armed to the teeth and fit for purpose in Afghanistan while going past an elementary school on my way to get milk. 🥛
They’re clearly trying to compensate for . . . It’s kind of like the off-road version of an incel with a black trench coat. I can almost smell the Doritos from here.
 

AnD3rew

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Really just echoing much of what has been said above but my 2c.

Did INEOS over promise and under deliver on ability to get support and to be able to do a lot of work yourself? Yes absolutely, here in Australia we were promised and extensive network of both full agents and also support from a wide network of Bosch services centres. The agents have been mostly delivered the fill in service centres not at all. They promised “flying spanners” and while I know they have gone out of their way to support many owners this was a bit hyperbolic. They promised detailed service manuals and still say that in some form they are on the way, they have yet to materialise and we don’t even have basic wiring diagrams. Having said all that I have had excellent support so far from my local dealer and the community here is excellent for information and support.

Hopefully someone will eventually jailbreak the diagnostics and provide an OBd2 reader that is fully compatible. But the basic codes can be read and cleared.

But there are also unrealistic expectations here from owners on the ability for your average amateur mechanic to work on modern engines and transmissions, basic servicing sure, complex issues no and this is in no way unique to INEOS/BMW.

In terms of BMW. The two engines chosen are about as good as things get from a
BMW perspective and up there across the whole market.
 
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