Overlanding and suspension lift

[AdiThorny]

Hi,

Intro: I am using the Grenadier as a route into Overlanding and been researching different vehicles along the way. I am going to go Roof Top Tent on a Grenadier Ineos, NOT a trailer. Probably a soft top because my Trailmaster order has the safari windows and I don't think there will be the length available on the roof for a hard shell. I will then look to get various kit for overlanding into the loading area.

Context: The conventional wisdom for a Hilux or similar pick-up is that you need to lift the suspension with and Old Man Emu etc. This is both for increased clearance AND increased load ability. I really don't think I want to do rock jumping etc that might require increased clearance but I have no doubt our vehicle will have a heavy load. I also saw discussion on this forum that the high cost of the built in winch is also because there are some tweaks to the front suspension. (Too expensive for me and I just don't think i will use it enough but made me think about the suspension tweaks).

Question:
What are people's thoughts on the need for suspension upgrade on the Ineos for the purpose of overlanding?
Does anyone think / know whether the price of the rear "Removable Winch with Tow Mounting Kit - 3.5 Tonnes" includes any similar adjustments to the rear suspension that would give the same effect as allowing increased load at the rear.

Many thanks

P.S. I am new to all of this so happy for any and all advice.

 

[cheswick]

WRT to the removable winch, there are no suspension adjustments. It is a removable accessory that may be fitted to either the front or the back of the vehicle (assuming you option in the front hitch).

You won’t gain clearance by lifting the suspension as the diff housing will still be at the same height, you will only gain in your entry and departure angle meaning you won’t scrape the front or back as you go through steep inclines or declines as much. The main reason to do a lift is to be able to fit larger diameter wheels, it is fitting the larger wheels that will get you more clearance. That said you could probably go up to 33” tires on the grenadier without a lift and from the way you describe your off-road aspirations you should do just fine with either the stock wheels or 33” anyway.

Every one will give you free advice, mine is to buy it and start using it. If you then find there is something that you want to do and the vehicle is holding you back - that is the time to think about lifts and things like that.

The winch is in my opinion a necessity if you’re going overlanding by yourself. If you’re going with mates then you have other ways of getting yourself out, just make sure you spend some time at a bare minimum watching a YouTube channel like madmatt 4WD or similar to get across some of the key safety concerns with vehicle recovery. Or even better do a course.

Personally I’ll be keeping mine stock standard until such time that there are some well engineered solutions to change the diff gearing to suit larger wheels, when that happens I’ll change from the 265/70R17 tires to something around 295/70R17 and 2” of lift to accomodate the wheels if necessary. This mirrors what I’ve run on my landcruisers which has been as capable as I’ve needed on any trip I’ve taken in Australia.

 

[AdiThorny]

WRT to the removable winch, there are no suspension adjustments. It is a removable accessory that may be fitted to either the front or the back of the vehicle (assuming you option in the front hitch).

You won’t gain clearance by lifting the suspension as the diff housing will still be at the same height, you will only gain in your entry and departure angle meaning you won’t scrape the front or back as you go through steep inclines or declines as much. The main reason to do a lift is to be able to fit larger diameter wheels, it is fitting the larger wheels that will get you more clearance. That said you could probably go up to 33” tires on the grenadier without a lift and from the way you describe your off-road aspirations you should do just fine with either the stock wheels or 33” anyway.

Every one will give you free advice, mine is to buy it and start using it. If you then find there is something that you want to do and the vehicle is holding you back - that is the time to think about lifts and things like that.

The winch is in my opinion a necessity if you’re going overlanding by yourself. If you’re going with mates then you have other ways of getting yourself out, just make sure you spend some time at a bare minimum watching a YouTube channel like madmatt 4WD or similar to get across some of the key safety concerns with vehicle recovery. Or even better do a course.

Personally I’ll be keeping mine stock standard until such time that there are some well engineered solutions to change the diff gearing to suit larger wheels, when that happens I’ll change from the 265/70R17 tires to something around 295/70R17 and 2” of lift to accomodate the wheels if necessary. This mirrors what I’ve run on my landcruisers which has been as capable as I’ve needed on any trip I’ve taken in Australia.

Many thanks. Agree that tyre size is probably as far as I would want to go. Not sure about overland load carrying. Conventional wisdom / sales pitch is overlanding you carry weight at the back of the vehicle hence need for increased suspension. Any thoughts? Also, can you explain where you see the front hitch option please - I have looked but can't see it - am in UK.

 

[DCPU]

Also, can you explain where you see the front hitch option please - I have looked but can't see it - am in UK.

It's across a few threads ~ all worth a general browse:

Search results for query: Front hitch

Note: not currently available on the UK pricelist but hoping it can be changed.

 

[cheswick]

Many thanks. Agree that tyre size is probably as far as I would want to go. Not sure about overland load carrying. Conventional wisdom / sales pitch is overlanding you carry weight at the back of the vehicle hence need for increased suspension. Any thoughts? Also, can you explain where you see the front hitch option please - I have looked but can't see it - am in UK.

The load capacity of the grenadier is more than enough. You won’t need to worry about the small amount of weight being added by the winch which is probably around 30kg. You’d have to be packing in some pretty heavy stuff like high capacity lithium batteries or water storage, etc to really have to be worried about load constraints on the Ineos.

For us in oz the front hitch is in the same section as the winch. If it’s not there for you then it’s probably because we have a different design of front bar according to the Ineos rep at our prototype days. Ours is steel apparently whilst I gather the European variant will be plastic.

 

[cheswick]

If there isn’t a front hitch in your country I wouldnt stress on it too much. There are more than likely going to be companies making front hitch kits for the grenadier anyway.

 

[AdiThorny]

The load capacity of the grenadier is more than enough. You won’t need to worry about the small amount of weight being added by the winch which is probably around 30kg. You’d have to be packing in some pretty heavy stuff like high capacity lithium batteries or water storage, etc to really have to be worried about load constraints on the Ineos.

For us in oz the front hitch is in the same section as the winch. If it’s not there for you then it’s probably because we have a different design of front bar according to the Ineos rep at our prototype days. Ours is steel apparently whilst I gather the European variant will be plastic.

View attachment 7792380

Many thanks. I get the point the winch won't require adjustment to suspension but what is your opinion / experience of load needed for overlanding with RTT, fridge, drawers, etc and the ability of the Grenny to cope?

 

[globalgregors]

I gather the front tow hitch fails to meet EU/UK(?) pedestrian safety or similar requirements.

A winch is not essential for global overlanding, however it will undoubtedly reduce some risks if travelling in remote locations, particularly where one might encounter mud in particular. Sand ladders/Maxtrax/kinetic strap (and a shovel) are generally all you need in sandy areas and will often do the trick on wet ground. As a vehicle dependent traveller (eg in some other country where you are not insured) it is foolhardy to take on highly technical trails, tempting though it is when one finds oneself in, say, Moab, Utah.

As discussed elsewhere, if you are carrying a hilift jack you can use this (albeit somewhat inconveniently) for winch recoveries. Obviously one would need to carry line and 2-3 snatch blocks/rings as mechanical advantage is crucial to this approach (also with the removable winch, which is fairly modest at 3.5t).

When overlanding internationally, the prudent approach when tackling remote or insecure zones is to travel in convoy. Always remember to audit the collective equiipment of the convoy before departure so that order can be maintained if/when one or more vehicles hit trouble.

With that said, I’m optioning a winch knowing that (along with tools, compressor, tyre plugs etc) I’ll more often use it to recover other vehicles.

Stronger springs are related normally to increasing the payload of a vehicle, which in Australia involves an upgrade to the rated GVM. This would include changing both front and rear springs, which in many vehicles are available in various lengths as owners increasing GVM also often want to fit larger tyres. These spring kits will be likely in the works but may take some time to become available.

The Grenadier has a decent payload but it’s quickly consumed if one has a couple occupants aboard, 100L of fuel, 40L of water, a second spare and all the gubbins on the roof, in the back and underneath.

At the risk of agitating members in the US, where larger tyres are essential on their rocky trails, for global overlanding you are vastly better off keeping to a 31” or 33” tyre on max 17” rim, as these are available globally and are fit for purpose given the prudent use of the vehicle typical when out and about in the world.

 

[cheswick]

I believe the payload capacity of a grenadier is ~900kg. Take off 400kg for 5 people at 80kg each. Let’s say those 5 people have 20 kg of gear each. Winch 30kg, RTT 100kg. Fridge 30kg. Drawers 50kg.

So you’re up to 710kg. You’ve still got a pretty sizeable buffer before you’re over the payload.

This car has a pretty impressive payload so I’d say as long as you’re not trying to carry enough fuel to drive from Glasgow to Vladivostok you should be fine.

 

[AdiThorny]

Bit of a light bulb moment = Payload of vehicle vs people and kit carried.... Blindingly obvious to everyone but me. Got it now. Makes perfect sense. Many many thanks. Really big incentive to think v carefully about what you take... Much appreciated.. .

 

[DCPU]

I believe the payload capacity of a grenadier is ~900kg. Take off 400kg for 5 people at 80kg each.

Forget the rest ~ if you're overlanding with 5 x 80kg bods you're not wanting to be in a single Grenadier

 

[cheswick]

Bit of a light bulb moment = Payload of vehicle vs people and kit carried.... Blindingly obvious to everyone but me. Got it now. Makes perfect sense. Many many thanks. Really big incentive to think v carefully about what you take... Much appreciated.. .

Nothing wrong with not being across all the different terms. TVM, GVM, TBM, GCM - it’s all gobbledygook until you’ve done a fair bit of learning. The good thing is that people are concerned with not being overweight in the first place. If you want to dive into it in detail there is an auto journalist named Robert Pepper on YouTube who has done some really good videos that walk through vehicle loadings.

 

[cheswick]

Forget the rest ~ if you're overlanding with 5 x 80kg bods you're not wanting to be in a single Grenadier

That’s the real reason soldiers get PTSD

 

[globalgregors]

if you're overlanding with 5 x 80kg bods

Yeah, I think the only time we’ve used the rear seat charge points in the Disco was when we found ourselves giving three fully kitted soldiers a lift down from the Kyrgyzstan/Tajikistan border crossing. In sketchy areas or authoritarian states it’s not unusual to have a ridealong - an armed policeman, guide, fixer, whatever. There’s often a couple of backpackers that want a lift to their next public transport, or some overland cyclist with a broken widget, or some errand to run on the steppe.

Spare seats and space on the roof platform come in handy again and again, and these encounters make the trip and can make for lasting friendships.

This is why we’ve gone with a five seater (which I’ll likely reduce to four) for global overlanding, when a two seater would be the go if we were just overlanding in Australia.

 

[DaveB]

This is a pretty good explanation of all the terms and calculations from an overlanders point of view in Australia

 

[Davman]

This video highlights a good point at around the 1:51 mark.
In Australia, the Tare weight of the vehicle only needs to include minimal fluids (fuel). In this video he mentions that it is 10 Litres (approx 10 Kg) for his Isuzu.

Due to the worldwide homologation of the Grenadier, the Tare weight of the vehicle coming into Australia already includes 90% of the total fuel weight possible - approx. 80kg

So filling the Grenadier of fuel will only take another approx. 10Kg payload away from the total allowable.

So effectively, you are gaining another approx. 70kg in hidden payload capability in the Grenadier compared with other vehicles entering the Australian market.

Therefore in any payload considerations done on paper factor in 10KG of fuel, not 100KG of fuel.

However, it is all hypothetical anyway until you take it over the weigh bridge.

 

[DaveB]

This video highlights a good point at around the 1:51 mark.
In Australia, the Tare weight of the vehicle only needs to include minimal fluids (fuel). In this video he mentions that it is 10 Litres (approx 10 Kg) for his Isuzu.

Due to the worldwide homologation of the Grenadier, the Tare weight of the vehicle coming into Australia already includes 90% of the total fuel weight possible - approx. 80kg

So filling the Grenadier of fuel will only take another approx. 10Kg payload away from the total allowable.

So effectively, you are gaining another approx. 70kg in hidden payload capability in the Grenadier compared with other vehicles entering the Australian market.

Therefore in any payload considerations done on paper factor in 10KG of fuel, not 100KG of fuel.

However, it is all hypothetical anyway until you take it over the weigh bridge.

I love watching people on the highway in vehicles so heavily loaded for holidays that the front wheels are barely touching the ground. Rear tyres rubbing on the guards. A huge caravan loaded to the hilt with more crap on top and attached to the back. Tow vehicle with a tinnie on the roof. Roof rack loaded high with gear as well as two huge spare tyres.

 

[bemax]

I love watching people on the highway in vehicles so heavily loaded for holidays that the front wheels are barely touching the ground. Rear tyres rubbing on the guards. A huge caravan loaded to the hilt with more crap on top and attached to the back. Tow vehicle with a tinnie on the roof. Roof rack loaded high with gear as well as two huge spare tyres.

Here in Germany it’s more the normal car filled to the top with passengers and load. Many cars have such a ridiculous low pay load that they are overpacked within seconds if four or five grown up passengers are with small bags on board. If the boot is fully packed with heavy stuff the cars meight have some hundred kilos more than allowed and look like starting speedboats
Sometimes I wonder, if small drivers can still see the road or just the sky

 

[Davman]

Here in Germany it’s more the normal car filled to the top with passengers and load. Many cars have such a ridiculous low pay load that they are overpacked within seconds if four or five grown up passengers are with small bags on board. If the boot is fully packed with heavy stuff the cars meight have some hundred kilos more than allowed and look like starting speedboats
Sometimes I wonder, if small drivers can still see the road or just the sky

Bemax, sounds like you are talking about the Landcruiser 200 and 300 series.

 

[DaveB]

Here in Germany it’s more the normal car filled to the top with passengers and load. Many cars have such a ridiculous low pay load that they are overpacked within seconds if four or five grown up passengers are with small bags on board. If the boot is fully packed with heavy stuff the cars meight have some hundred kilos more than allowed and look like starting speedboats
Sometimes I wonder, if small drivers can still see the road or just the sky

When I lived in Tasmania we used to see small cars with huge caravans struggling up the hills. Then smoking brakes as the caravan took control on the down hill sections. Typical cart driving the horse theory