Land Rover feeling the Heat?

[AWo]

this the first time we've seen actual sales numbers for the states?

For me, here in this forum, yes.

AWo

 

[ADVAW8S]

Thanks for finding and posting this. Is this the first time we've seen actual sales numbers for the states?

I can't remember... what was the most they could sell in the US before running into trouble with the Feds? Weren't they granted certain exemptions for being a 'boutique' automaker limited to X amount of units per year?

If your referencing CAFE rules, no more than 10k. That's why the Fussier was going to help these numbers. I will say, I have seen an uptick of the Grenadier in the Seattle area. I stopped by the new showroom in downtown Seattle which sits right underneath Google. They had 3 in there and one just was sold off the floor. I wonder, totally hyperbole, if after the election we see an uptick of models sold in the US. Recent numbers show inflation trending back to year over year target of 2%. Business reducing cost of goods which is amazing consider they raised prices a year ago. Granted most of them took their profits, bought back shares and increased their dividends. The US GDP surprising on upside close to 3% and unemployment staying at full employment.

 

[BigJock2024]

The ND really should have been the new Discovery.

I think you'll find one of the original Top Gear 3 described it as exactly that... "Best Discovery never built".

 

[BigJock2024]

Right — it just felt like there was nothing singular about it. Lol I bet your machismo will prevail for many, many years!

It really does surprise me. Makes me wonder about the buyer profile — new to Rovers entirely vs converting from other Rovers. It just felt like a very odd update on such a beloved stand-alone vehicle. And they just tossed all of its boxiness right out the window. I think if they would’ve at least referenced some of the visual traits of the original, it could’ve felt like more of a modern take/update rather than an entirely different vehicle that just used an old name.

Another example it made me think of is the G wagon. It’s a vehicle that so many people love (not necessarily here though) — and visually there is nothing else like it, the visual aspect is a huge part of what makes it IT. And if they redesigned it and made it all rounded and puffed out — the thing that made it IT would disappear and I wouldn’t be able to pick it out from anything else.

It might be a me thing — it bugs me that everything looks the same. I don’t know why but I’ve always loved boxy cars — the old broncos, intl scouts, old land cruisers, even the old Volvos in terms of sedans.

It's pretty simply... the "boxy" look is simply function over form. All new, stylish or trendy things are the opposite - form over function.
Nice looking things are great, we all love them. But in my book that applies to things like watches, mobile phones, hand-bags (purses, as you call them) and loads of other stuff.
But 4x4s are designed and built to simply go over shit. Rocks, pools, mud, gravel... just drive through them. The function is the raison d'être and therefore the form doesn't matter or at least comes last.
The reason that Defenders (real ones) and the Grenny look great is because their form embodies their function. The conflict is removed, the purist is made happy by the sight. The "new Defender" will never achieve that.
When someone says to me "So your Grenadier doesn't have..." I just punch their lights totally out and rejoice in having a vehicle that I actually have to drive. Like having a partner that actually wants to talk to you.
They will never get it.

 

[Zimm]

It's pretty simply... the "boxy" look is simply function over form. All new, stylish or trendy things are the opposite - form over function.

It’s 100% function. Fuel consumption and wind noise. The flat front of the Gren doesn’t have any utility at all, and the square back would, if you regularly stacked beer cases floor to ceiling, but who ever does that with an suv?

I just like it ‘cause I like it.

 

[tnkatoy]

There are quite a few examples where recognizable boxy cars have been changed with a negative impact - LR Discovery, Nissan Pathfinder, Nissan Patrol... all cars where the entire character of the vehicle was changed, and also functionality (at least here in Aussie).

They were changed so much they no longer fit into their original market and couldn't compete in other markets, they just don't have any relevance, with the result that there are still more old models on the road than the new ones (can't remember the last time I saw a current model Patrol off-road).

Unless the vehicle can break into a new market it struggles. LR Defender has broken into a new market, only it is the market LR/RR already have a strong presence in anyway, so Defender is only competing with their own products, hence the lack of Discovery sales (and the re-design of the Disco didn't help either).

At a time when car sales are very strong and new manufacturers have a strong presence, Nissan appears to have pretty much lost all market recognition, with declining market share Nissan looks like it is struggling.

Nissan has demonstrated just how important it is to not to underestimate the value that comes with relevance and recognition of products.

 

[74CampySuperRecord]

Not sure where to post this.

Really cool build seen this past weekend.

And no, I was in the 80 Series. My wife had the Grenadier.

 

[Tazzieman]

And VW also feeling the heat. Unprecedented.
Basically the entire automotive world is in a seismically unstable state.
And that's not even considering the geopolitics of the next 1-2 years.
I'm not overthinking things , just glad I grabbed my Grenadier before the world turns to mush.

 

[Zimm]

And VW also feeling the heat. Unprecedented.
Basically the entire automotive world is in a seismically unstable state.
And that's not even considering the geopolitics of the next 1-2 years.
I'm not overthinking things , just glad I grabbed my Grenadier before the world turns to mush.

You live on an island at the bottom of the world far from trade routes, without oil wells or refineries. I don’t think the Grenadier is gonna save you. You need something that runs on sailboat fuel.

 

[Tazzieman]

You live on an island at the bottom of the world far from trade routes, without oil wells or refineries. I don’t think the Grenadier is gonna save you. You need something that runs on sailboat fuel.

If it gets that dire I'll pootle happily around in my last century classics (filled with petrol, with a few spare jerry cans for later) and then drive my wife's car on home grown electricity.
When the skies go dark I'll eat my home grown potatoes until they're gone.
I'll have a last meal of chickens and ride my bike down our very steep hill into oblivion.
Or kayak over to the shack where there are stores , a fishing rod and a beach.
I have considered all options

 

[Max]

I have considered all options

How about we investigate an electric solar powered hot air balloon...the fabric is the solar panel or panels...a nice little heater blowing air into the balloon, a sunny day and perpetual motion, off we go.

 

[Tazzieman]

How about we investigate an electric solar powered hot air balloon...the fabric is the solar panel or panels...a nice little heater blowing air into the balloon, a sunny day and perpetual motion, off we go.

Harness the power of the complaints side of the forum and you won't even need solar

 

[Max]

Harness the power of the complaints side of the forum and you won't even need solar

But some don't even take a breath

 

[AWo]

JLR published their Q4 2024 result:

Best Market was the US, top sales with RR, RRS and Defender. +43% sales, leaving China as a market behind.

The overall global profit decreased by 17% to Mio. 523 BPD. 106,334 units sold in Q4 globally. The Defender was sold 28,321 (-1,7%) units, RR 17,402 units (+42%) in Q4.

I still don't think JLR is feeling anything about Ineos, them still trying to reach 20,000 units in year at all.

AWo

 

[lightning]

The Grenadier is a completely different vehicle to the new Defender and won't be on JLR's radar.

 

[pmatusov]

The Grenadier is a completely different vehicle to the new Defender and won't be on JLR's radar.

Oh make no mistake, it is and it was - JLR took INEOS to court for IP infringement with respect to body design, and lost.

 

[lightning]

Oh yes in that respect it was Land Rover trying to stop lneos building the vehicle that they (LR) should have built.

But in the end, l don't think Land Rover see it as a threat to their market segment.

 

[tnkatoy]

What is good is that JLR seems to have bounced back and is trading profitably again. The 2024 retail sales for Defender were 114,646 units, if ineos is doing around 20,000 units, that's a fairly significant proportion of Defender sales, so it's likely to be an annoyance to JLR, but not a worry. JLR have gone in a completely different direction anyway, so given the vehicles are in such different markets, I'm surprised the proportion of Grenadier sales, compared to Defender, is as high as it is.

The thing is, Grenadier will continue to sell in it's market, without the need for too much in the way of updates & upgrades, there will be minor changes here and there, but the basic vehicle is likely to remain largely unchanged, and yet still just as relevant in 20 years as it is today (like the old Defender was). The new Defender however, is now in a much more fickle and competitive market, so JLR will need to invest heavily to keep the Defender relevant and desirable (more like a fashion accessory than a utilitarian vehicle), otherwise sales will just go to the latest trendy shiny product.

Interestingly, Discovery only sold 46,433 units, makes me wonder how long JLR will keep desperately flogging, what seems to be a dead horse of a model, before dropping it, not that it's a bad car, it's just that JLR have too many like it, that are more desirable, in their line-up. It goes to reinforce that JLR should have branded the new Defender as the Discovery, and actually released a proper Defender, then they wouldn't have had to worry about Grenadier at all.

Just had a thought though ... what the Grenadier has probably done is pretty much prevent JLR from being able to market the Defender as a rugged utilitarian vehicle, I mean, if you see an image of a Defender off-road in a rugged remote location, beside an image of a Grenadier in the same location, it would be hard to take the Defender seriously. JLR has probably set-up the Defender TikTok channel to try to get the Defender in more 'real life' off-road settings, so they can try make it's image more rugged and not quite as trendy.

 

[Clark Kent]

What is good is that JLR seems to have bounced back and is trading profitably again. The 2024 retail sales for Defender were 114,646 units, if ineos is doing around 20,000 units, that's a fairly significant proportion of Defender sales, so it's likely to be an annoyance to JLR, but not a worry. JLR have gone in a completely different direction anyway, so given the vehicles are in such different markets, I'm surprised the proportion of Grenadier sales, compared to Defender, is as high as it is.

The thing is, Grenadier will continue to sell in it's market, without the need for too much in the way of updates & upgrades, there will be minor changes here and there, but the basic vehicle is likely to remain largely unchanged, and yet still just as relevant in 20 years as it is today (like the old Defender was). The new Defender however, is now in a much more fickle and competitive market, so JLR will need to invest heavily to keep the Defender relevant and desirable (more like a fashion accessory than a utilitarian vehicle), otherwise sales will just go to the latest trendy shiny product.

Interestingly, Discovery only sold 46,433 units, makes me wonder how long JLR will keep desperately flogging, what seems to be a dead horse of a model, before dropping it, not that it's a bad car, it's just that JLR have too many like it, that are more desirable, in their line-up. It goes to reinforce that JLR should have branded the new Defender as the Discovery, and actually released a proper Defender, then they wouldn't have had to worry about Grenadier at all.

Just had a thought though ... what the Grenadier has probably done is pretty much prevent JLR from being able to market the Defender as a rugged utilitarian vehicle, I mean, if you see an image of a Defender off-road in a rugged remote location, beside an image of a Grenadier in the same location, it would be hard to take the Defender seriously. JLR has probably set-up the Defender TikTok channel to try to get the Defender in more 'real life' off-road settings, so they can try make it's image more rugged and not quite as trendy.

Good summary @tnkatoy

I see it thusly. Both do the same job.

New Defender.

Grenadier.

 

[lightning]

lt's good that there's a choice.