Land Rover feeling the Heat?

[lightning]

Well yes

But having the same suspension parts doesn't make the vehicle the same.

Look at the old Defender and the Discovery 2 for instance.

Different vehicles to drive but the same components underneath.

Try driving a new Defender and a Discovery 5, as l have done, then come back and report your findings.

You may change your opinion particularly if you try a Defender on coil springs.

 

[Tom109]

Look at the old Defender and the Discovery 2 for instance.

I get what you're saying, but this is a bad analogy. Completely different suspension components, hubs, etc...

 

[lightning]

The Defender is a completely different dynamic to drive, than the Discovery 5.

 

[Zimm]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'if off-roading and not paying attention or not knowing what is going on, it does fill the attention gap pretty well..."
My training and experience as a professional off-road driving instructor was back in the 1990s... while the current tech is obviously far beyond air compressors and transfer case linkage, I find no appreciable disadvantage to the immediacy of the center and rear set-up in the current 90.

Another consideration is location, I suppose... in the Northeast, which is the only place I've wheeled my '22 110 and '24 90, it works quite well, whereas I look forward to the confidence that the triple lockers in the Grenadier will give me when I head out to Moab.

Pretty simple. Having driving modes making decisions for you, more suits those without skill or those not paying attention, no matter how well it works. I would rather observe the terrain I’m approaching, and make the decision to lock diffs etc etc prior to entering the the terrain, than wait to see if the sensor input elicits the response I wanted, no matter how quickly it does so. I think the new defender would attract experienced drivers if it had included a purely manual mode.

I didn’t say it didn’t work well. And my commentary on the rig…… well, had nothing to do with you. Sorry.

 

[tnkatoy]

Not true.

I'm on my second after 3 flawless years in a 110. This time around, I went with a 90 with the 4 cyl and full off road packs, plus factory-applied PPF. It's light years ahead of my last LR4 and more versatile than most vehicles I've owned. I've taken my "New" Defenders in places my Tdi 110s and 90s would never go... and find the interior to be the most comfortable and usable, with an utter lack of carpets and leather. After 35 years of LR ownership (and at least 25 of various models and configurations), I feel confident in saying so with first-hand experience.

My Grenadier is a different vehicle altogether - at least for my purposes.

You are entirely correct, Grenadier and new Defender and different vehicles altogether, to a lot of us that's because JLR got it wrong with the new Defender, but then again, if JLR did get it right, Ineos wouldn't have made the Grenadier, gotta love the irony !

I agree with the sentiment that the new Defender would have been better branded as the new Discovery, and the Defender update should have been much more in keeping with the original, like Mercedes did when updating the G-Wagon.

I'm not disputing that the new defender is a very good and very capable vehicle, but, put simply, it is no longer a Defender. IMO, it's now pretty much the same as the rest of the JLR stable of vehicles, and importantly, it appeals much more to that market than the serious 4x4 / touring market, which is a shame because it is the end of an era.

But then, it has resulted in the start of the Ineos Automotive era, so I can't complain . (Ineos spelling not recognised ??? lol)

I can only think that JLR was expecting the new Defender to be received much more enthusiastically by the 4x4 community, they just got it very wrong, and have pretty much lost not only an entire market, but the legacy of what Defender used to be.

 

[Tinerfeño]

Look at the old Defender and the Discovery 2 for instance.

Different vehicles to drive but the same components underneath.

Defender chassis is similar to Range Rover Classic and Discovery 1. Discovery 2 doesn't have the same components. But it has solid axles and is a very capable in off-road.

 

[lightning]

Sorry l probably did mean the Discovery 1, and not the Discovery 2.

l don't think LR really cared too much about the 4x4 community when they introduced the new Defender, they shifted their focus to the urban market where all the money is, and it has been a
great success.

I am not saying l agree with it, l would rather they had made a Grenadier type vehicle.

lt's interesting that LR tried to stop lneos from producing the Grenadier though. Why would they do that? Maybe in case they had made a mistake?

 

[bigleonski]

Land Rover got it absolutely right with the ND. They targeted the market niche that would give them the biggest level of sales, and they appear to be doing very well - probably better than they dreamed of, albeit at the expense of disco sales.
It’s just not the market the original defender catered for.

 

[lightning]

That's pretty much hit the nail on the head. Good job lneos stepped in to fill the gap.

 

[AWo]

German official statistics of new car registrations from the KBA year-to-month-end September 2024
JLR New Defender: 2341 (+211)
JLR Discovery: 353 (+20)
JLR Range Rover: 1152 (+73)
JLR Land Rover all-in-all: 9296 (+750)

Ineos: 401 (+32 M1+N1)

N1 are included in these numbers.

AWo

 

[Zimm]

I had a defender for years, and g320. Between the two of them, this doesnt remind me of an old defender in the least. It would need to be, cheaper, lighter, higher payload, repairable, and not need service similar to an MB product. It would also need to be janky, uncomfortable, unsafe and a massive piece of shit in general. They did nail visibility, and the random "why the f**k did they do that?"

Other than that, this is the dollar store version of a Gwagon.

 

[FlyersFan76]

I had a defender for years, and g320. Between the two of them, this doesnt remind me of an old defender in the least. It would need to be, cheaper, lighter, higher payload, repairable, and not need service similar to an MB product. It would also need to be janky, uncomfortable, unsafe and a massive piece of shit in general. They did nail visibility, and the random "why the f**k did they do that?"

Other than that, this is the dollar store version of a Gwagon.

Frugal man's GWagen sounds better.

 

[Jeremy996]

Frugal man's GWagen sounds better.

In the UK, half-price G Wagen!

I'm very fond of my Grenadier. (I'd never have found the money for a G Wagen).

 

[Tazzieman]

Siir Jim himself stated it would be a "cut price G wagen"

 

[rovie]

Siir Jim himself stated it would be a "cut price G wagen"

Well, the comparison is a bit off. There's a qualitative difference. Of all the little things we talk about here in the forum, I haven't noticed a single one in the new G wagon.

 

[Jeremy996]

Well, the comparison is a bit off. There's a qualitative difference. Of all the little things we talk about here in the forum, I haven't noticed a single one in the new G wagon.

My local Mercedes dealer may differ - moaning about the dealer campaigns they are having to do. Mercedes, unlike Ineos Automotive are geared up for correcting issues quickly and quietly.

 

[Tazzieman]

Well, the comparison is a bit off. There's a qualitative difference. Of all the little things we talk about here in the forum, I haven't noticed a single one in the new G wagon.

It was a throwaway comment. I think it was more a reference to the original G wagen vehicles; their build quality and capability.
Not the modern luxobarges.

 

[AWo]

Marklines US shows the following sales numbers for Ineos cars in the US:

January: 760
February: 650
March: 595
April: 543
May: 573
June: 535
July: 539
August: 510
September: 251

Jan-Sep 2024: 4956

Ineos stated the US is the best performing market, yet.

AWo

 

[lightning]

You've got more places to take a 4x4 over there.
And l think there's more Overlanding done generally so the Grenadier works well in the USA.

 

[Reducs]

Marklines US shows the following sales numbers for Ineos cars in the US:

January: 760
February: 650
March: 595
April: 543
May: 573
June: 535
July: 539
August: 510
September: 251

Jan-Sep 2024: 4956

Ineos stated the US is the best performing market, yet.

Thanks for finding and posting this. Is this the first time we've seen actual sales numbers for the states?

I can't remember... what was the most they could sell in the US before running into trouble with the Feds? Weren't they granted certain exemptions for being a 'boutique' automaker limited to X amount of units per year?