Ineos investing $2.3 billion in hydrogen

[DCPU]

Yes batteries in a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle may be smaller but its essentially a BEV with a built in recharging system consisting of a hydrogen fuel tank and a fuel cell.

Weight/volume between each option will have to be compromised somewhere.

The fallback position on all of this is that companies like Toyota have been invested in hydrogen tech since 1994 (?) but the commercial market for passenger cars now is dominated by battery electric ~ why?

As for over engineered chassis, battery packs are now commonly forming part of the structural integrity of the vehicle itself ~ no additional chassis required.

I'm not a huge flag waver for BEV (but do declare to purchasing a Tesla) but where are the hydrogen powered vehicles? The only ones really out there are Toyota and Hyundai with tiny market penetration. BMW, JLR, Ineos, Vauxhall are all dabbling, but mostly with public money via various grants and development schemes.

 

[emax]

> the commercial market for passenger cars now is dominated by battery electric ~ why?

The argument doesn't say much about the better solution. This is very similar to why VHS finally made it to market instead of Betamax. Betamax was way better - but too expensive at the time. Of course, as the market share increased, it would have become competitive. But sellers always want business and profit now.

There were a lot of patent issues, and after all, JVC was just better at marketing and lobbying for VHS than Sony was for Betamax.

Ignorance plays another big role in electric cars: It is much easier to take electricity from a battery than to generate it with a fuel cell. This makes the BEV solution easier to implement – especially for non-high-tech companies. Unfortunately, it is often the case that a seemingly simple solution triumphs over a clever solution when either greed or idiots or both decide on the solution: the dumb one wins - in particular if the majority was simply unable to participate in an emerging market because they can simply not catch up with the big players which had in wise foresight already invested in FC development since decades.

And politically, a "quick" step was postulated: "Electric now, SAVE THE PLANET!"

But at the latest when more electric cars come onto the market, the question of raw materials will become more urgent. For only half a percent of cars that are electric vehicles, lithium and nickel have been easy to find and buy in sufficient quantities for an affordable price. But at the latest when the market requires more and more batteries then someone has to foot the bill for a decision made by greedy managers, stupid politicians, or both, and/or others in this game.

The "decision" here is of course not a single legislative decision, but a bundle of measures and subsidies for one way instead of the other.

And that's what I think why BEV solutions currently dominate the market..

 

[AnD3rew]

I suspect Hydrogen despite a slow start might have it’s day in countries like Australia that have large areas to cover and rely to a huge degree on heavy road transport. The problem here is range for BEV for city dwellers going to and from the office, going to the supermarket and dropping kids at school it’s fine, but if you are driving several thousand kms then stopping every few hundred for at least 20-30mins to recharge isn’t going to cut it and no chargers in the Simpson desert. The advantage of hydrogen and also the eletrofuels which is another option, is portability and ability to use existing distribution networks with minor modifications. Also for a country like Australia we have virtually unlimited solar production capacity during the day which can then make hydrogen to store for nighttime generation and transport. We have seen lots of tweeks in battery technology and efficiency but not major leaps for some time and the chemistry is limited and the capacity to weight ratio means diminishing returns means I don’t think we will see B-Doubles and road trains with 1000km range that can recharge in a reasonable time in cunnamulla anytime soon

 

[cheswick]

I suspect Hydrogen despite a slow start might have it’s day in countries like Australia that have large areas to cover and rely to a huge degree on heavy road transport.

Spot on. Battery electric vehicles will probably dominate passenger vehicles in the big cities. The rest of the country will need efuels, hydrogen, green diesel or even just stick with dyno-diesel until such time that the charging speed and or power density of battery electric improves substantially.

 

[DCPU]

Ignorance plays another big role in electric cars: It is much easier to take electricity from a battery than to generate it with a fuel cell. This makes the BEV solution easier to implement – especially for non-high-tech companies.

Sounds rather similar to Ineos' take on high tech for the Grenadier ~ much to be said for KISS.

As we know Ineos are developing a fuel cell vehicle and a full on BEV, then it looks like we may get a chance to see both. We will have to wait to see whether both will make it to full commercial production.

 

[DCPU]

I suspect Hydrogen despite a slow start might have it’s day in countries like Australia that have large areas to cover and rely to a huge degree on heavy road transport.

Yes, that's where it may play to it's strengths.

The problem here is range for BEV for city dwellers going to and from the office, going to the supermarket and dropping kids at school it’s fine, but if you are driving several thousand kms then stopping every few hundred for at least 20-30mins to recharge isn’t going to cut it and no chargers in the Simpson desert.

If you're driving several thousand kms, how many overnight stops are you going to have?

There's plenty of cars that will now do 400km plus.

How many hydrogen filling stations in the Simpson?

Fitting an auxiliary hydrogen tank looks to be a significantly expensive option.

We have seen lots of tweeks in battery technology and efficiency but not major leaps for some time and the chemistry is limited

I guess it depends what you read. It seems a week doesn't pass without a new chemistry mix being proclaimed offering some benefits. Maybe not major leaps but sometimes incremental movements get it done.

Then there's solid state batteries...

 

[AnD3rew]

Yes, that's where it may play to it's strengths.


If you're driving several thousand kms, how many overnight stops are you going to have?

There's plenty of cars that will now do 400km plus.

How many hydrogen filling stations in the Simpson?

Fitting an auxiliary hydrogen tank looks to be a significantly expensive option.


I guess it depends what you read. It seems a week doesn't pass without a new chemistry mix being proclaimed offering some benefits. Maybe not major leaps but sometimes incremental movements get it done.

Then there's solid state batteries...

No hydrogen filling stations in the Simpson, but you can carry additional hydrogen, it’s not easy or cheap but its more practical than trying to solar charge batteries. E fuels which are also hydrogen based may end up being the most practical for that. On multi thousand km journeys there will
Be overnight stops but not uncommon to drive 1000km in a day. Heavily laden vehicles and vehicles towing trailers will not be easily acheiving anything like 500s range. Yes incremental battery gains are important but particularly for heavy transport they need to be huge and maybe we will see that but no guarantees.

 

[DCPU]

I'm reminded of what Glickenhaus are doing, particularly the challenge with Musk:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1453777426996137986

"glickenhaus unveils its hydrogen boot fuel cell off-roader"

jim glickenhaus said the vehicle will be equipped with swappable cryogenic hydrogen tanks. ‘our refueling solution is swappable DOT compliant tanks filled with cryogenic hydrogen that can be easily changed 24/7/365 worldwide as one swaps out propane BBQ tanks. this can happen at home or in existing gas stations or parking lots.’

glickenhaus unveils its hydrogen boot fuel cell off-roader

www.designboom.com

 

[emax]

Ignorance plays another big role in electric cars: It is much easier to take electricity from a battery than to generate it with a fuel cell. This makes the BEV solution easier to implement – especially for non-high-tech companies.

> Sounds rather similar to Ineos' take on high tech for the Grenadier ~ much to be said for KISS.

My context was why I think that BEVs are nowadays dominating the EV market. Ineos however develops a strategy for the future and as we can see, they assess not just BEV solutions but as well an FC concept. And that's a big difference to all the "we are now electric!" Volkswagens and mass producers which are after fast success.

Regarding KISS: KISS does and can not mean to put a steam engine in a car.

Even though Ineos uses the maybe most advanced and sophisticated Diesel engine in the Grenadier, they haven't imho broken the KISS principle at all. There is simply no choice with respect to the current European and US, Australia and other regulations. And that's the strategy they follow: for the electric question they seem to cooperate with Hyundai and (as far as I understood) may be with BMW. So they have chosen not just to follow a BEV concept but to at least try the smarter way. Whether this will pay off or not is currently unknown and part of their entrepreneurial risk. But they at least assess all the options and that's exactly the opposite of what politicians and 'non-high-tech-companies' have done in the past. Ineos neither has the knowledge to build an FC. So they cooperate with companies which do - instead of simply relying on batteries.

KISS is an excellent concept within a reasonable framework, but it has it's limits dictated by many matters of facts. You can't hardly put oxen in front of a car just to stay KISS compliant. And with regards to FC vs. BEV concepts that seemed to me a bit like putting half a ton of batteries into a car.

 

[DCPU]

JLR new Defender - Project Zeus - now a reality

The First Land Rover Defender Equipped With A Hydrogen Fuel Cell System Is Now A Reality

Taking advantage of an event held in the United Kingdom, the British Jaguar Land Rover has presented the first sample of the work it is...

fuelcellsworks.com