How many cars have been built?

[DCPU]

Right ~ but I don't think that's how the penalty works? Heavier vehicles get a bigger allowance, and JLR have a bespoke figure.

And they've been effectively buying credits from Tesla for a few years.

 

[bemax]

Right ~ but I don't think that's how the penalty works? Heavier vehicles get a bigger allowance, and JLR have a bespoke figure.

And they've been effectively buying credits from Tesla for a few years.

But how do the penalties work, if not this way?
The heavier the cars the higher the allowed output of CO2. That is right and probably influenced by Mercedes and Co.
But they will have a limit not tremendously higher than the average. Buying certificates might ease the costs but isn’t for free as well.

 

[Eric]

Do we have an allotted year ? I’ve handed over all the money with absolutely no idea when it will be delivered. Too trusting or stupid ? I don’t know

Keen, you're months ahead on me. I should be in build by now but no sign of a contract. So I am resigned to the fact that it will be a 73 plate at best.

 

[DCPU]

But how do the penalties work, if not this way?
The heavier the cars the higher the allowed output of CO2. That is right and probably influenced by Mercedes and Co.
But they will have a limit not tremendously higher than the average. Buying certificates might ease the costs but isn’t for free as well.

I understand it's target for 2021 was 130.6 g/km but it finished the year at 135 g/km, resulting in a 93 million-euro fine. Sales of plug-in hybrids and the full-electric Jaguar I-Pace will bring extra credits to the company, and as they increase, JLR is predicting it will have surplus credits.

It's having no problems putting V8 engines in all models across the Defender range.

 

[bemax]

Good points, but they still would have to compensate the higher output of quite a quantity of “real Defenders” on top. Probably because of the higher weight the would not compensate 200 grams but only 170 grams. But still it would be a five digit mark up.
Let’s say they would have a costly issue but could handle it maybe.
By the way, Ineos certainly is thinking of the combined exhaust of CO2 when starting a BEV as a new project. Don’t you think so too?

 

[DCPU]

Good points, but they still would have to compensate the higher output of quite a quantity of “real Defenders” on top. Probably because of the higher weight the would not compensate 200 grams but only 170 grams. But still it would be a five digit mark up.

Theoretically yes, but as it's based on mean averages and JLR are ramping up the hybrid & full EV content, then I think they think they'll always have the headroom.

The penalties they've paid could be seen as being entirely down to the failure of the i Pace to sell in the volumes predicted. So maybe the mark up value goes as a negative entry on the i Pace accounts?

By the way, Ineos certainly is thinking of the combined exhaust of CO2 when starting a BEV as a new project. Don’t you think so too?

Definitely, if it makes the volumes predicted then it will have the same "problem" Tesla has ~ selling credits to other car manufacturers; or even making more profit from emissions trading than vehicle manufacturing.

 

[DCPU]

Even less. 25.000 was the number they wanted to reach (at least in the beginning and for that number parts were ordered). But, maybe they reduced that, I don't know.

AWo

Perhaps they have ~ what was the split by regions?

 

[AWo]

The questionis, if that organisation considers itself as small manufacturers with the limit of 10.000 and if that has a legal character? The EU regulations state that 1500 units are the limit. That does'n stop organizations from setting other and their own limits to become member there. Is there any proof that EU legislation has another limit than 1500?

Being member in a private organization of manufacturers is different from where legislation puts you.

Cheers
AWo

 

[Jean Mercier]

Do you want to see what real "penalties" are? Look at the Dutch (Nederland or The Netherlands) prices:

Link here

 

[klarie]

Do you want to see what real "penalties" are? Look at the Dutch (Nederland or The Netherlands) prices:
View attachment 7810406

Link here

Jean . exactly - there is a double penalty indeed. - Penalty to manufacturers producing such vehicles, to customers purchasing these and perhaps when using these e.g. by increased road tolls where applicable and fuel price.. Nanny government..

Hm. so we shall go on the road with a cargo bicycle. .- My wife's boss is such a person. Living in Frankfurt City / 8 minutes to work carrying her kids in a cargo bicycle..

 

[AWo]

Interesting....

If I look into the UK regulations of small series vehicle manufacturers, it states only different numbers from the EU in case of vehicles higher that 4 m (as on continental europe 4 m is the height limit, so the UK has to define small vehicle series maximal permitted numbers on their own). For other cars, like M1 they refer to the EU regulation.

From the UK "The Road Vehicles (Approval) Regulations 2020" and "The Road Vehicles and Non-Road Mobile Machinery (Type-Approval) (Amendment and Transitional Provisions) (EU Exit) Regulations 2022"
( https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/818/made and https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/1273/regulation/15/made )
(a)
for the purposes of paragraph (7), the number of units specified in the table in paragraph 2 of Section A of Annex V to the Type Approval Regulation in relation to the vehicle category to which that type belongs, and

(b)
for the purposes of paragraph (7A), the number of units specified in the table in paragraph 2 of Section A of Annex V to the EU Type Approval Regulation in relation to the vehicle category to which that type belongs;”.

This pointer to the EU regulations in terms of "maximum number permitted" is found several times in the UK regulation.

In annex V (5) of that regulation you can find the maximum permitted number of 1500 units per year. It seems that this number also and still applies to the UK:

• The number of units of one type of vehicle to be registered, made available on the market or entered into service annually in the Union shall not exceed, pursuant to Article 41, the quantitive annual limits shown in the following table for the vehicle category in question:

Category	Units
M1	1500
M2, M3	0 until the date of application of the delegated acts referred to in Article 41(5). For fully automated vehicles produced in small series: 1500 from 6 December 2022
N1	1500
N2, N3	0 until the date of application of the delegated acts referred to in Article 41(5). For fully automated vehicles produced in small series: 1500 from 6 December 2022
O1, O2	0
O3, O4	0

Cheers
AWo

 

[AWo]

Do you want to see what real "penalties" are? Look at the Dutch (Nederland or The Netherlands) prices:
View attachment 7810406

Link here

Is that because of the 10 years tax you need to pay in the Netherlands at the time you buy a new car?

When a used car inthe Netherlands is sold to another person, does the buyer take over the rest of the tax left?

Cheers
AWo

 

[klarie]

Is that because of the 10 years tax you need to pay in the Netherlands at the time you buy a new car?

When a used car inthe Netherlands is sold to another person, does the buyer take over the rest of the tax left?

Cheers
AWo

The fee to my understanding applicable to first registration only. -

This pricing is similar to DK. Friends of mine from DK told me - the registration tax is passed on proportionally to the next buyer. Cars registered as taxi are exempted from this tax in DK but can only be sold for non taxi purpose after significant mileage.

I assume in NL the registration fee cost will be passed on to next owner. (proportional)

 

[DCPU]

The UK question was posed in relation to CO2 emissions, it's best therefore to look at that actual legislation for an answer:

 

[MrMike]

Finally now have my VIN ends in 7781, be interested to see what the production numbers per month are?

 

[Sam]

Yours seems to be latest VIN on here... latest i've noticed anyway.

1 year and 1 week since the first production car - it looks like this anniversary has slipped by relatively un-noticed.

So 7800 cars in a year... 21/day or 650/mo. Not much.

 

[Nocrays]

Finally now have my VIN ends in 7781, be interested to see what the production numbers per month are?

Mine is 3301 and was built in April I believe

 

[MrMike]

Mine is 3301 and was built in April I believe

Have you possession of your Grenadier?

 

[MrMike]

Yours seems to be latest VIN on here... latest i've noticed anyway.

1 year and 1 week since the first production car - it looks like this anniversary has slipped by relatively un-noticed.

So 7800 cars in a year... 21/day or 650/mo. Not much.

It will be 1 year since I placed my order next month

 

[bemax]

Yours seems to be latest VIN on here... latest i've noticed anyway.

1 year and 1 week since the first production car - it looks like this anniversary has slipped by relatively un-noticed.

So 7800 cars in a year... 21/day or 650/mo. Not much.

It’ll be slightly more per month now, as the first month’s output couldn’t have been more than average of a 100 cars a month the first three months.