Grenadier V G-Wagon

[ECrider]

a fine way of looking at it bemax

 

[Spjnr]

It's not about being defensive, its that 250hp and 550nm of torque is plenty for the vehicles application, even at 2750kg.

Good mate of mine has an expedition ready JL 2.0 with 275hp and 400nm of torque. It's on 37s with rooftent, bumpers, winch all the interior trimmings, fridge etc. Sits at least 2500kg and with the same gearbox as the grenadier it moves like you wouldn't believe.

 

[stickshifter]

How does one quantify a certain amount of power as "plenty"? Can you not recognize that all one can really say is "X hp and Y torque is plenty for my intended use"? I'm a bit baffled by the insistence that "what is plenty for me must be plenty for everyone else".

 

[Spjnr]

If you took 100 different cars, truck, vans etc, and drove all of them, ranking them in terms of perceived power and driveability for intended purpose, you'd end up with a spectrum of results.

A small engine entry level hatchback might score low, as for a daily commuter it may not have the sort of get up and go to keep up with people going 80 on the motorway.

My 2002 hilux would rank mid to low, as for a truck thats supposed to tow etc its pretty gutless, but it gets about OK for a utility 4x4.

A Cayenne 4.2 v8 diesel would rank highly as for a daily driver and tow vehicle, as it's got more than enough power to tow 3.5 ton with ease.

A 392 JL scores even higher, as nobody ever needed that much power in a solid axle jeep, but that's the fun novelty of it

On this scale, I can imagine a 250hp 550nm grenadier being middle of the pack. As for a towing/utility 4x4 it'll be plenty, not ground breaking, but plenty to do its Job.

You can't judge a vehicles power in categories it wasn't meant to compete in. "My intended use" is pretty much what Ineos built it for. Mid to low speed offroading, road trips and towing 3.5 ton. If your intended use is pushing records at the Nurburgring and carving up canyon roads at 80mph then why you buying a 2.8 ton solid axle 4x4?

 

[stickshifter]

"You can't judge a vehicles power in categories it wasn't meant to compete in." - please show me where I have done so.

"If your intended use is pushing records at the Nurburgring and carving up canyon roads at 80mph then why you buying a 2.8 ton solid axle 4x4?"


Reductio ad absurdum... come on now. Feel free to pm me if you ever want to have a real conversation on the topic.

 

[Cheshire cat]

Having recently attended the game fair in Central England. There were several Land Rover Defender performance specialists sporting the old style Defender with asking prices well north of £100,000.
In the UK at least, there is a big market for off-road vehicles that can perform on the road. Don’t ask me why but I am pretty sure it won’t take very long before Grenadier’s will be competing in this very same market.

 

[cheswick]

"You can't judge a vehicles power in categories it wasn't meant to compete in." - please show me where I have done so.

"If your intended use is pushing records at the Nurburgring and carving up canyon roads at 80mph then why you buying a 2.8 ton solid axle 4x4?"


Reductio ad absurdum... come on now. Feel free to pm me if you ever want to have a real conversation on the topic.

Not really, you’re complaining that an axe isn’t a good shovel. If you want a shovel, buy a shovel.

 

[Shaky]

Having recently attended the game fair in Central England. There were several Land Rover Defender performance specialists sporting the old style Defender with asking prices well north of £100,000.
In the UK at least, there is a big market for off-road vehicles that can perform on the road. Don’t ask me why but I am pretty sure it won’t take very long before Grenadier’s will be competing in this very same market.

i was there Cheshire and like you say there was plenty of gin palaces up for sale that were full of bling and horsepower.

Two things; i wonder if these will still be as desirable to the ”in“ crowd when they realise they can get something new and pretty similar for a lot less.

With point one in mind how long before Urban and other blingmaster companies with be bolting on carbon appendage extensions all over a Grenadier, lowering the suspension and wringing every bit of horsepower out of the BMW engine.

I am sure the IG will then have “plenty of horsepower“.

Reliability… well that’s another subject

 

[stickshifter]

Not really, you’re complaining that an axe isn’t a good shovel. If you want a shovel, buy a shovel.

No - that is a very simplistic reading of what I have written. I have pointed out that - compared to most of the relevant competition - the IG has less horse power and torque, and this is especially true when vehicle weight is taken into account. Do the research for yourself if you don't believe the data I have presented previously. I have only ever compared the IG to other similar vehicles (Landcruiser 200, Ford Bronco, Jeep Wrangler, etc.). That is an "apples to apples" comparison, or to use your language "axes to axes". Only people reacting defensively have suggested that I am comparing the IG to a sports car - or something absurd like that. So I challenge you: point out the specific place where I complain that "an axe isn't a good shovel". Take your time...

 

[emax]

Guys,

it's not worth arguing for one or the other point of view.

A point of view, a personally different weighing of facts, these are all subjective judgements. If this is important to one person and that to another, then so be it. That's the wonderful thing about individuals.

I don't think it's a question of who is "right", but rather that the frequent repetition of the same "deficiency" is becoming too much for one or the other.

Personally, in such cases, I read things and leave them as they are.

You can try it, it works really well.

 

[stickshifter]

Agreed emax, but the problem here is a broader one, and it looks like this:

1. See data
2. Deny data
3. Respond to the person who presented the data using (a) strawman argument, (b) reductio ad absurdum, (c) ad hominem attacks.

This is not collegial behavior or how productive conversation takes place. This type of behavior should be challenged - both on this forum and in other walks of life. I've done my part to challenge this poor behavior, and now I'm done.

 

[emax]

Maybe your're right.

But if you insist, this thing will become a never ending loop.

 

[Chadd7]

I would love to see some more side by side photo comparisons if anyone can find them. I searched YouTube and Google images and didn't find much at all.

 

[Bobby Mac]

I’ve driven a VW beetle in places some fourbies would struggle - light weight, low power and torque so wheels don’t spin and bog as easily. Then my old Def 130 - again, may be a little slower than others, but go anywhere others often got stuck… and both understressed so they gave me no mechanical problems over many years in harsh Aussie conditions.
Also, a lot depends on the driver. Horses for courses on vehicle choice and don’t forget….
”It’s not how big it is, but how you use it”

 

[DaveB]

I’ve driven a VW beetle in places some fourbies would struggle - light weight, low power and torque so wheels don’t spin and bog as easily. Then my old Def 130 - again, may be a little slower than others, but go anywhere others often got stuck… and both understressed so they gave me no mechanical problems over many years in harsh Aussie conditions.
Also, a lot depends on the driver. Horses for courses on vehicle choice and don’t forget….
”It’s not how big it is, but how you use it”

Yep
Sometimes too much application of the right foot and not enough engagement of the brain leads to be troubles.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40HintqdIM8

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fJpNBtEgsc

 

[Mr_Trucker]

Coming back to the initial question and sharing my point of view as a commercial vehicle engineer let‘s look on the data sheet of the OM656 (latest inline 6 diesel from MB).

G400d (Euro VI - W463A)
243kW / 700Nm

G350d (Euro III - W464 military spec)
183kW / 600Nm

Both vehicles / engines target very different customers and applications. The one should be capable of going > 180km/h on the Autobahn with ease, while the other one is required to pull a 3.5t trailer in harsh conditions.

Usually when designing an engine, you have certain lifetime requirements and on the other hand wear and tear from the operation itself. For each and every component you know pretty well what are the influencing factors as exhaust gas temperature, oil temperature, vibrations or many others. Over lifetime a component can endure a certain amount of stress - generally spoken - and now you can decide if you want to achieve 300,000 km or less and derive the boundary conditions from that.

On the other hand detuning an engine improves its robustness towards high ambient temperatures and high altitudes without a power-derate or throwing a bunch of error messages. I don‘t know it in detail but I assume that the Grenadiers B57 or the detuned OM656 from MB run up to 3,000m altitude without a power-derate. Obviously not the number one use case for Australia, but you can understand the point and can imagine other use-cases like 45°C ambient temperature. Would be interesting to know which development targets Ineos has set.

Max

 

[Solmanic]

I would love to see some more side by side photo comparisons if anyone can find them. I searched YouTube and Google images and didn't find much at all.

I will be doing just that in a week or so hopefully. Standby.