Australasia Dealership to hand back license to Ineos +

[Lord Ripon USA]

Ahhhhh. Yep? It was worldwide repair centers, easy to fix in the field, with all manuals and open source coding when ordering. 0-3 on that so, I'm guessing having a dealer somewhere on their side of the continent is a minor selling point. I think some dark spots between Dushanbe and Ulaanbaatar were expected so buying one to heard horses in the Gobi was a toss of the dice, but, I'd be a little miffed if I took delivery of a car off of that dealer the day before it was announced.

The point was we ordered before there was a dealer. We were rolling the dice on where they might pop up at.

And I'm purposely not talking about what people that work or worked for Ineos pre-dealer announcement might say.

Facts are, in the US, there were thousands of orders placed that would probably require lengthy drives for warranty service, and people queued up anyway.
I'm still trying to figure out how I will manage 8+ hrs each way for what I'm kinda expecting to be a rough birthing.

I'm leaning toward, "You knew all that as a possibility before you ordered, so figure it out."

 

[Bildeaux]

Since there were no dealers when many of these vehicles were ordered, other than convenience, Does it really matter?
I'm US based, so I have no dog in the fight down under. But I WAS assigned to a dealership 700 km's, and 8hrs by hwy, away.
I'm still trying to figure out what that means to me.

I never felt the Grenadier concept was supposed to be strong on dealership ties.
Now, because they have been required to create such a very complex vehicle, they have become so.

If Ineos would publish or make available any manuals or service information this would not leave everyone in such a lurch. There is virtually no information available about the parts unique to the Grenadier ie, transfer case, axles electronics etc. Without service manuals, diagrams and parts availability, even an experienced mechanic is going to have major challenges to supporting any vehicle.

Not sure it is totally a parallel, but Fiat entered the US in the 1950's with limited support for its dealerships and most of the support literature that they provided to the servicing dealers was in Italian. It created major barriers to repairs and what was perceived as poor support from Fiat. It struggled with a poor reputation in the US market while it was successful elsewhere. They made good small cars in a market where they only competed with other imports at that time. But they failed only because of poor support. Its sales were almost nothing by 1980 and fully pulled out including support by a few years later. And they were a major automotive manufacturer. I don't believe any manufacturer could survive in the US without a level of support that approaches what other auto manufacturers provide. I believe they are currently behind in that regard. They will need to step it up to survive everywhere, not just remote Australia.

 

[Jackattack13]

If Ineos would publish or make available any manuals or service information this would not leave everyone in such a lurch. There is virtually no information available about the parts unique to the Grenadier ie, transfer case, axles electronics etc. Without service manuals, diagrams and parts availability, even an experienced mechanic is going to have major challenges to supporting any vehicle.

Not sure it is totally a parallel, but Fiat entered the US in the 1950's with limited support for its dealerships and most of the support literature that they provided to the servicing dealers was in Italian. It created major barriers to repairs and what was perceived as poor support from Fiat. It struggled with a poor reputation in the US market while it was successful elsewhere. They made good small cars in a market where they only competed with other imports at that time. But they failed only because of poor support. Its sales were almost nothing by 1980 and fully pulled out including support by a few years later. And they were a major automotive manufacturer. I don't believe any manufacturer could survive in the US without a level of support that approaches what other auto manufacturers provide. I believe they are currently behind in that regard. They will need to step it up to survive everywhere, not just remote Australia.

I completely agree with this. People in the U.S. have an expectation of service that has been established by other manufacturers. If this isn't even remotely close, most people will avoid a boutique brand. Only for the fact that if they break down somewhere or need parts, they will be taken care of. I don't get that feeling yet from their network. Parts seem to be incredibly difficult to come by, and the lack of manual to give to a mechanic if needed is concerning. What if I am in North Dakota and break down. Do I get towed to Denver?

 

[Zimm]

The point was we ordered before there was a dealer. We were rolling the dice on where they might pop up at.

And I'm purposely not talking about what people that work or worked for Ineos pre-dealer announcement might say.

Facts are, in the US, there were thousands of orders placed that would probably require lengthy drives for warranty service, and people queued up anyway.
I'm still trying to figure out how I will manage 8+ hrs each way for what I'm kinda expecting to be a rough birthing.

I'm leaning toward, "You knew all that as a possibility before you ordered, so figure it out."

We did, BUT, ahhh... naaaaa... we didnt. That was a refundable reservation, and it was based on promises yet to be filled, but expected to be fulfilled. No one created the expectations out of whole cloth. As for why they had reservations, well the purose was more to get dealers to see a customer bank and sign up. That whole dance was for THEM, not for US.

I'm sure most people were hoping for a dealer, but almost all were expecting some sort of service center at the nearest metropolis and at minimum manuals to get by if not. I'm in Pittsburgh. I did certainly did not expect a dealer, but geographically it's the center of plenty of hinterland and great place to have an authorized service center. If I lived in Erie, I'd be expecting Pittsburgh, Cleveland or Buffalo to have something. It seemed like the universal first question when someone found out there was to be no service centers was, "Well, I can go to a BMW Dealer, Right?" . Whats the advantage of Using commonly available manufacturers if they are no more willing or able touch for warranty work, than if it was a Ferrari engine?

Like I wrote in an earlier post, the decisions made after the sign up pushed the truck from a goal of being a common farm implement (hooray!) to an exotic (boooooo). I literally CAN get a Ferrari repaired closer. Unless they open up another dealer for those poor fellas in Oz, they are sitting on Ferrari's.

 

[bakepl]

Below is an interesting read, I had (mistakenly) thought all of the U.S. had 'right to repair'. On an aside, many of us made the purchase having exercised considerable due diligence given the dollar outlay whilst weighing up the pros and cons of a new brand/model that included the manufacturers promise of timely parts availability, DIY service and workshop manuals being made readily available. Not sure if this promise is still being made but it certainly tipped me over the line and I'm glad it did...... the car meets or exceeds my expectations, a few niggles but never the less I always have a smile when I hop in. I'm still hoping IA will keep their promises and become a brand well known for it's customer focus. Only time will tell.

The battle over right to repair is a fight over your car’s data

Today’s cars include hundreds of computer chips, and carmakers say the data produced by those chips is proprietary – and a security risk. This means you don’t own the data your car generates.

theconversation.com

 

[DaveB]

Ahhhhh. Yep? It was worldwide repair centers, easy to fix in the field, with all manuals and open source coding when ordering. 0-3 on that so, I'm guessing having a dealer somewhere on their side of the continent is a minor selling point. I think some dark spots between Dushanbe and Ulaanbaatar were expected so buying one to heard horses in the Gobi was a toss of the dice, but, I'd be a little miffed if I took delivery of a car off of that dealer the day before it was announced.

We don't buy cars off the dealer in Australia.
They just do the delivery and handover.

 

[Steve.B]

I’ve heard that there’s going to be an email update about this pretty soon. It will outline a temporary service solution and showroom to existing facilities nearby and also explaining the long term plans and presence in the South Australian market.

If I hear any more confirmed details then I’ll pass these along.

Thank you so much for your help on this matter Stu, it will be really interesting to see what they have to say.
On Tuesday Tony ( Top Cat ) and I went for a visit to Adelaide Hills Motors Bridgewater dealer where they sell Nissan and Suzuki, and for the moment Ineos Grenadiers, so that Renee the only remaining employee from the now closed Fullerton dealership could show us around.
Just as we arrived Renee finalised a new Ineos Grenadier order, "she is a force of nature", with a very enthusiastic couple who after we were introduced, asked if they could came out to have a good look at Tonys vehicle modifications and also mine we were happy to oblige.
We were introduced to the service manager and the chief mechanic, the chief mechanic knows his stuff.

 

[bikesandguitars]

Reading through this thread reminds me of why I have largely avoided enthusiast forums that aren’t moderated by the manufacturer / company representative.

I have to say that if jumping to conclusions were an Olympic sport, I’d favor the Australians for the gold.

So far, I’ve read that this dealer is closing due to:

1. An appalling lack of communications from Ineos
2. Too many dealers
3. Population distribution of Australia
4. Unfixable vehicles
5. The dealer is walking away to protect their reputation
6. Money is tight at IA
7. Ineos Chemical will not lend any more to $$$ the Automotive group.

The thread is starting to veer towards the inevitable conclusion that Ineos Automotive is throwing in the towel. People have begun rooting for Ineos because they’re so darn close to being a success…

Meanwhile, not one iota of this speculation is supported by information provided by Ineos Automotive, the affected dealer (likely because of an iron clad NDA for IA to buy them out) the automotive press or the mainstream media. All of it, right, wrong or otherwise, originated on this three page thread. And, as one user wisely commented, these negative musings are likely influencing gullible buyers who interpret this baloney as fact.

There are no sure things in business. One of the hallmarks of a young, nimble and viable business entity is that they make adjustments in order to stay in business. The opening and closing of dealerships / making adjustments to the dealer mix is absolutely par for the course. Why anyone finds this practice to be out of the ordinary is beyond me. Did anyone expect IA to bat 100% on the dealer mix right out of the gate? Of course there will be adjustments! And, of course, there are confidential, contractual protections, obligations and expectations for all involved. That’s normal business.

As for communication, I have been pleased with the communication I have received from my dealer - my order status, my VIN, my ship date, my arrival date, the delayed tow hitch, the broken windshield… all communicated effectively by my dealer, Red Noland in Colorado Springs. I also understand why IA is using the dealer network as the primary channel in the communication chain. I was pleased enough with everything - especially the quality and value - that I bought a second one.

As for repairs, any BMW or ASE certified mechanic is authorized to service your vehicle without voiding the warranty. At least that’s true in the U.S.. The third party technicians may / may not be able to reset service intervals. Parts may be an issue. It’s going to take some time.

And yes, it could go the way of Studebaker or Delorean. It could also be the next Hyundai or Lexus. Time will tell.

Flame away, friends. I don’t care.

 

[Top Cat]

Thank you so much for your help on this matter Stu, it will be really interesting to see what they have to say.
On Tuesday Tony ( Top Cat ) and I went for a visit to Adelaide Hills Motors Bridgewater dealer where they sell Nissan and Suzuki, and for the moment Ineos Grenadiers, so that Renee the only remaining employee from the now closed Fullerton dealership could show us around.
Just as we arrived Renee finalised a new Ineos Grenadier order, "she is a force of nature", with a very enthusiastic couple who after we were introduced, asked if they could came out to have a good look at Tonys vehicle modifications and also mine we were happy to oblige.
We were introduced to the service manager and the chief mechanic, the chief mechanic knows his stuff.

The thing that keeps me going through this is that I love my Grenadier! It does just what it said it would do.
The common thread across all the comments from all continents is that when we ordered the vehicle a big part of our decision making process was based on what the company told us. Simple, Strong, all good! Then.....Backed by Service Centres, Comprehensive Manuals and the like. None of this has occurred, at least not to my knowledge. Marketing ran rife, remember the flying spanners? service within 100kms? Bosch support world wide?
The damage Ineos management are making to their own brand is difficult to fathom. I believe the angst in the Grenadier community is a cumulative one, slowly building as more countries and dealers/agents come on line. No response is never an option to an issue, but it their case no response to lots of issues will destroy any goodwill and trust we may still have. I want this to work, the interest here in Australia for the cab chassis version is big, same for the Quartermaster, so the future is very bright IF they get the foundations right.
Going to polish my Trialmaster now.......................

 

[T5Ineos]

This Isn't Caveat Emptor. This isn't a used car. When you buy a new car, you buy a system. Until the warranty is up, it's all one and the same, because it was baked into the price of the car.

That's why I turned down my order and have been watching to see what Ineos does. It's got beta product teething issues which I expected, but, The price I agreed to included accessible service closer to home, and that doesn't exist. My dealer, RDS, said they would handle shipping, and I believe they have honest intentions, but that's not a contract in writing and future financial constraints could put an end to that right quick. The business model and profits have to work for them, too.

The problem can be observed in this situation right here.

Seeing an early market dealer drop out raises the defcon level another notch, at least for me.

I got mine from RDS/INEOS and paid delivery fee to my home. I have used RDS for Lamborghini in the past and under warranty it has been picked up/dropped off fully covered. I would be delighted to see this continued with the INEOS brand and would make my dealings with RDS even more solid. Not to jinx it but they generally seem like a good group and, to date, verbal and hand shake deals have been honored.

 

[Zimm]

I got mine from RDS/INEOS and paid delivery fee to my home. I have used RDS for Lamborghini in the past and under warranty it has been picked up/dropped off fully covered. I would be delighted to see this continued with the INEOS brand and would make my dealings with RDS even more solid. Not to jinx it but they generally seem like a good group and, to date, verbal and hand shake deals have been honored.

It was implied by MJ to me that would be the case more often than not, and I do believe he is sincere in his intent. My only issue being, this isn't a Lambo, and profit per unit isn't in the same league, while units sold and mileage accrued will be in the normal not super car realm. It's not in writing, so, if intent clashes with profit reality three years from now... well... sometimes something has to give.

 

[Steve.B]

We Grenadier owners in South Australians have eventually received an email from Ineos.
It does not go in to much detail, but it does say Grenadiers home in South Australia is changing, and that after agreement with our current retailer, that we " Ineos " will be working with a new partner in South Australia who we will announce soon.

 

[255/85]

What if I am in North Dakota and break down. Do I get towed to Denver?

Not exactly. You tow yourself to within 100 miles of a dealer and then call Ineos.

 

[Andrew Kilby]

The thing that keeps me going through this is that I love my Grenadier! It does just what it said it would do.
The common thread across all the comments from all continents is that when we ordered the vehicle a big part of our decision making process was based on what the company told us. Simple, Strong, all good! Then.....Backed by Service Centres, Comprehensive Manuals and the like. None of this has occurred, at least not to my knowledge. Marketing ran rife, remember the flying spanners? service within 100kms? Bosch support world wide?
The damage Ineos management are making to their own brand is difficult to fathom. I believe the angst in the Grenadier community is a cumulative one, slowly building as more countries and dealers/agents come on line. No response is never an option to an issue, but it their case no response to lots of issues will destroy any goodwill and trust we may still have. I want this to work, the interest here in Australia for the cab chassis version is big, same for the Quartermaster, so the future is very bright IF they get the foundations right.
Going to polish my Trialmaster now.......................

I couldn't agree more. I would not have bought the vehicle if I had known that there was not going to be the support that was promised. I fully understood that there was not going to be a dealer network as extensive as the established brands. The manuals and Bosch centres were intended to cover the gap. Lets not forget the parts that owners were going to be able to get from IA direct. I still don't understand why IA can't set up local service mechanics in major towns out west to support the vehicle. Long term they must want to sell to farmers, mine sites, rural customers, government etc but this will never happen without local support. A farmer in St George is never going to travel to Toowoomba for service and repair.

 

[trobex]

I'm coming up on 15000kms - where is my service manual??? Anyway I'm about to find out. Just need to find a lumbar story that actually works...

 

[Logsplitter]

I couldn't agree more. I would not have bought the vehicle if I had known that there was not going to be the support that was promised. I fully understood that there was not going to be a dealer network as extensive as the established brands. The manuals and Bosch centres were intended to cover the gap. Lets not forget the parts that owners were going to be able to get from IA direct. I still don't understand why IA can't set up local service mechanics in major towns out west to support the vehicle. Long term they must want to sell to farmers, mine sites, rural customers, government etc but this will never happen without local support. A farmer in St George is never going to travel to Toowoomba for service and repair.

Getting the service manuals out and the Bosch service centres set up would probably help sales and certainly that’s why many of is bought into the project

 

[Tazzieman]

I'm coming up on 15000kms - where is my service manual??? Anyway I'm about to find out. Just need to find a lumbar story that actually works...

A lumbar story?

 

[DenisM]

I couldn't agree more. I would not have bought the vehicle if I had known that there was not going to be the support that was promised. I fully understood that there was not going to be a dealer network as extensive as the established brands. The manuals and Bosch centres were intended to cover the gap. Lets not forget the parts that owners were going to be able to get from IA direct. I still don't understand why IA can't set up local service mechanics in major towns out west to support the vehicle. Long term they must want to sell to farmers, mine sites, rural customers, government etc but this will never happen without local support. A farmer in St George is never going to travel to Toowoomba for service and repair.

I suspect Ineos are trying (to encourage regional service centres)... but unless they can "guarantee" a minimum customer base there's really no incentive for the "locals" to invest funds to purchase the basics and/or time to acquaint themselves with the Ineos systems. I'm holding off buying a diagnostic tool for the moment because I think that a model from the existing Bosch lineup will probably be adapted for the Grenadier.... well it seems logical to me

 

[NQ94]

I have been holding off mentioning this for a long time because I may be wrong but somehow I do not think so. There may be may be some dealers in Australia that did not take on the Ineos brand or rejected it very early prior to the first vehicle deliveries. The apparent closest one to me is around 2hrs away in Mackay, every time I go into Mackay I drive around looking for the Ineos brand and vehicles at the dealers various listed locations and also made contact with no replies, Ineos just tells you the network is always expanding when contacted. There is no local advertising or any info on their web site and not much comes up in a search. I would like to be corrected and told there is a dealer because if I finally decide to buy a QM I do not want to travel or pay for towing to attend the known dealers 4 to 5 hrs north or south for repairs the same as BMW dealers. For the same reason prior to committing to an Ineos I would like to know if there Is a workshop manual and useable diagnostic equipment to deal with the vehicle in the workshops and with field techs I work with. On a side note there is a local Mercedes and Land Rover dealer have service centres. The Mackay, Bowen Basin region is a very Toyota, Ford and Nissan dominated region with all the mines and agriculture in the region and this would be a a region that Ineos could very much benefit from out side of the capital cities.

 

[Steve.B]

I have been holding off mentioning this for a long time because I may be wrong but somehow I do not think so. There may be may be some dealers in Australia that did not take on the Ineos brand or rejected it very early prior to the first vehicle deliveries. The apparent closest one to me is around 2hrs away in Mackay, every time I go into Mackay I drive around looking for the Ineos brand and vehicles at the dealers various listed locations and also made contact with no replies, Ineos just tells you the network is always expanding when contacted. There is no local advertising or any info on their web site and not much comes up in a search. I would like to be corrected and told there is a dealer because if I finally decide to buy a QM I do not want to travel or pay for towing to attend the known dealers 4 to 5 hrs north or south for repairs the same as BMW dealers. For the same reason prior to committing to an Ineos I would like to know if there Is a workshop manual and useable diagnostic equipment to deal with the vehicle in the workshops and with field techs I work with. On a side note there is a local Mercedes and Land Rover dealer and service centre. The Mackay, Bowen Basin region is a very Toyota, Ford and Nissan dominated region with all the mines and agriculture in the region and this would be a a region that Ineos could very much benefit from out side of the capital cities.

South Australia, Western Australia, and Northern Territory, over 5.8 million square kilometres have 3 Inios service centres between them, that is a drive of over 3000 km distance between each of them.