Anyone else considering returning their Ineos Grenadier?

[Roach]

@Jiman01 Thanks for posting the link! Do you have any pics of how it looks in your truck and what the image looks like in real life?

As you stated, nice to be able to back it to the brim and still see.

 

[Jiman01]

@Jiman01 Thanks for posting the link! Do you have any pics of how it looks in your truck and what the image looks like in real life?

As you stated, nice to be able to back it to the brim and still see.

I’ll take some pics for you and the group tomorrow.

I will say that it does take some getting used to because it’s not a 1:1 aspect ratio. The view in the mirror is slightly magnified compared to a “normal” mirror. Interestingly, because it’s a camera, you can zoom in slightly of the rearward view, using a +/- button located on the bottom edge of the mirror.

It took me about a week to get used to the view. Now it seems completely normal.

The other pro for me is that rear head rests and cargo partition aren’t an obstruction either.

 

[John Dean]

I’ve glanced through this thread and its very concerning for me/family. We have three preorder (US) that are likely on the way or maybe stateside. I understand it’s a first year coupled with new brand but It’s sounding like waiting and kicking this can down the road might be a better fit for us. Myself (and kids) are coming from very reliable brands and the IG sounds like it’s great for an enthusiast rock crawler but 98% of our driving is on the streets or dirt roads so MPG, steering, fit/finish, safety, reliability and customer service are more important than conquering a trail. I know….it’s personal.

Is there a list of issues compiled someplace? If we move forward I’d love to have a checklist if we move forward to review before accepting the car.

Conflicted

Hi

I was one of the early adopters. I had some frustration with them getting their act together as a company.

MPG, I am happy, but I expect it not to be the most economical on fuel. I'm not sure any other comparable vehicle is much better.
steering, i was concerned, but after a few miles, its not a problem at all
fit and finish, I own or have owned a number of high-end cars. and, in my opinion, its excellant
safety, not had any crash or any other test, but feels very safe
reliability I have no concerns over reliability
customer service The dealer is excellent, and i also have contacts within Ineos that helped me (more to do with some opional extras i order and delivery of them)

its built for purpose, and in my opinion, it's fit for purpose.

Options (my personal opinion and i am based in the uk, not up to speed what is available in USA.)
G Wagon: at least twice the price, good off and on road, not a working vehicle, i wanted to use my car with muddy shoes,
Pickups: I wanted one cabin; fuel consumption was the same; the cost is perhaps a little cheaper, but not by much; plus, build quality and performance on and off road are nowhere near as good as the Ineos Grenadier
The Land Rover Defender, if not in the garage being repaired (I have owned 10+ Land Rovers over the years), is good on and off-road but more expensive, and it does look or feel like it is as robust as the Ineos Grenadier or a real-working vehicle. The new defender is great for school runs.

I hope find this useful

 

[stickshifter]

That is so funny
Americans drive far more than the rest of the world do???????
It's a shame they don't travel more, then they would stop believing this kind of crap.
Then again maybe it is a good thing
Some americans drive a lot, some americans don't own cars, some Americans (11.5% or 39.2 Million) live below the poverty line so probably don't drive a lot.
I could probably make the same generalisations about most 1st world countries.
Well except the poverty bit.
I think the type of vehicles is based more on the types of roads rather than some nonsensical statements.
Europe has lots of small, narrow, crowded roads so they tend to have smaller vehicles.
US has long, straight, smooth roads, with some high altitude winding roads, so totally different vehicle requirements.
As Australia is physically the same size as mainland USA, we also have long straight, winding, high elevation roads, but rarely smooth.
We also don't tend to like soft suspension or body roll.
Reliability and robustness is significantly more important than fancy gadgets.

Not sure where you are going with the poverty stuff - sounds like a bit of nationalistic posturing which isn't really welcome here.

By the Australian government's own measure:

But poverty is not that simple to measure and compare from one country to the next. The OECD attempts to do so, and here is their data for 2021 (which I graphed below). I don't know much about poverty measures in Australia, but the OECD measure seems to me to be a more realistic assessment of the U.S. poverty rate. The figure of 11.5% that you mention is actually too low, when you look at how the U.S. Census measures poverty - it is purely income-based, and doesn't actually reflect living standards. The OECD measure, by contrast, is capturing many people who do not fall below the official poverty line, but are, in fact, impoverished by most understandings of the concept. That is an honest assessment of American poverty, and one that is free from nationalism.

 

[stickshifter]

I’ve glanced through this thread and its very concerning for me/family. We have three preorder (US) that are likely on the way or maybe stateside. I understand it’s a first year coupled with new brand but It’s sounding like waiting and kicking this can down the road might be a better fit for us. Myself (and kids) are coming from very reliable brands and the IG sounds like it’s great for an enthusiast rock crawler but 98% of our driving is on the streets or dirt roads so MPG, steering, fit/finish, safety, reliability and customer service are more important than conquering a trail. I know….it’s personal.

Is there a list of issues compiled someplace? If we move forward I’d love to have a checklist if we move forward to review before accepting the car.

Conflicted

Hi Roach,

The Grenadier - assuming it is free of problems - will be a great overlander, but it is not set-up from the factory to be a rock crawler. It comes with 31.6 inch tires, and the ground clearance is too low for "rock-crawling" (at least based on Colorado & Utah trails). The Grenadier will be fine on trails up to a 5 or 6 on the OnX scale (1-10), but after that, its clearance will be a problem. Up-sizing tires to 33" is do-able, but you may get rubbing at full-flex. For rock-crawling, I'd want a suspension lift even with 33s to avoid rubbing, and to add some clearance for the undercarriage (a suspension lift does not add clearance under the diffs - only larger tires will increase clearance under the diffs). The problem with a suspension lift is the length of the control arms (see #1 below). In addition, a 33" tire will fit on the spare location (just). Up-sizing beyond that in the Grenadier will be challenging for the following reasons:

1 - The control arms are short, and as you go up in tire size and/or suspension lift, the angle of the control arm gets too steep, and the driving dynamics are ruined. I have decades of experience driving lifted vehicles on larger tires. There is no way I would drive a Grenadier, lifted, on 35s, with the stock control arms. If you go to 35s, you will need to either (1) add a drop bracket and continue to use the stock control arms (a drop bracket lowers the attachment point for the control arm at the frame, and reduces the angle), or (2) you will need a long-arm kit - which involves cutting off the old brackets from the frame, and welding on new brackets (further aft for the front control arms, and further forward for the rear control arms - to accommodate the longer arms). If you lift the vehicle, and do a long-arm kit, you will need custom drive shafts, which will be a little longer than stock. To my knowledge, there is no long-arm kit for the Grenadier - not yet, anyway. A suspension lift and a long-arm kit will likely run $10,000 - $14,000, depending on options (should one become available). See these Jeep long-arm kits for comparison (they are for people who want to run 37s and have maximum wheel-travel off-road, and really good handling on-road, or for people who want to run 40s): https://evomfg.com/collections/long-arm-suspension-systems

2 - As of yet, there are no after-market gears for the Carraro axles. The B57 (diesel) is a torquey engine, and you can certainly get away without re-gearing with a 33-inch tire. The B58 (gas engine), which is the only one available here in the United States, generates a max torque of 332 lb/ft, and that comes on pretty low in the rpms due to the forced induction - which is good. Torque down low helps to get bigger tires moving. But if you go up past a 33" tire, re-gearing the axles is necessary to keep the factory ratio in place. Ideally with the B58, you would probably run 4.30 gears with 33-inch tires, and 4.56 gears with 35-inch tires. Maybe you can get away without re-gearing for 33s, and maybe 4.30 is a better gear for 35s - I don't know yet. Personally, I hate driving vehicles on larger tires without re-gearing. Its not how the power-train was designed to run, and the loss of power annoys me (but that's me).

3 - As mentioned previously, nothing larger than a 33 will fit on the stock spare location, so you will need to figure out how to carry a spare if you go to a 35. There are tire carriers that can mount in the rear tow hitch (they are not super-expensive). Pretty soon, I would guess, there will be an aftermarket bumper with a tire-carrier, which will be much more stable than a hitch mounted spare, but those bumper-tire carrier kits generally run around $3,000 (price may or may not be relevant to you).

Someone posted a picture of a Grenadier on 37-inch tires, built by some aftermarket company. Its easy to put a vehicle on larger tires, its harder to do it right.

If you are in the market for a solidly built overlander, that can handle moderate rocks, the Grenadier should be fine. If you want a rock-crawler, I'd suggest a Jeep. Jeep has the solution for every issue I outlined above. The Wrangler can be bought - from the factory - on 35-inch tires, with correct gearing installed from the factory, with proper length control arms, and with a full-size spare mounted in the stock location. If you want to go to a 37, there are dozens of well-established, quality aftermarket companies that have experience setting the Jeep up to run properly on that big tire.

 

[YellowLab]

Are you replacing the X5 Diesel with the IG?

Yes - I sell it private party

 

[Roach]

@stickshifter great analysis. I'm not going to be rock crawling...maybe a little BDR. Considering the percentage of OHV trails I'll be on I'm wrestling with why as (and I'm not a hater) the truck doesn't seem to be a good truck for my "truck" purposes (towing, dirt roads, snow/ice)...but I still love the truck

 

[Lord Ripon USA]

@stickshifter great analysis. I'm not going to be rock crawling...maybe a little BDR. Considering the percentage of OHV trails I'll be on I'm wrestling with why as (and I'm not a hater) the truck doesn't seem to be a good truck for my "truck" purposes (towing, dirt roads, snow/ice)...but I still love the truck

Car companies are in the business of selling cars.

The North American market is one of the largest in the world.

The bulk of the population i.e. potential customers, live along the coast.
Not in rock crawling areas.

If you’re going to sell cars they have to appeal to those people. The volume of rock crawling capable vehicles sold in United States is tiny. Definitely not worth building a factory for, or creating a new brand.
For every Rsptor that I see that has dirt on it, I see 10 that the person can barely afford the payment on, spending half of every day polishing the thing.
The sizzle in this particular steak is the vague similarity to all of the desirable four-wheel-drive vehicles of the last half century.
It is literally a styling grand slam.

 

[Roach]

Hi

I was one of the early adopters. I had some frustration with them getting their act together as a company.

MPG, I am happy, but I expect it not to be the most economical on fuel. I'm not sure any other comparable vehicle is much better.
steering, i was concerned, but after a few miles, its not a problem at all
fit and finish, I own or have owned a number of high-end cars. and, in my opinion, its excellant
safety, not had any crash or any other test, but feels very safe
reliability I have no concerns over reliability
customer service The dealer is excellent, and i also have contacts within Ineos that helped me (more to do with some opional extras i order and delivery of them)

its built for purpose, and in my opinion, it's fit for purpose.

Options (my personal opinion and i am based in the uk, not up to speed what is available in USA.)
G Wagon: at least twice the price, good off and on road, not a working vehicle, i wanted to use my car with muddy shoes,
Pickups: I wanted one cabin; fuel consumption was the same; the cost is perhaps a little cheaper, but not by much; plus, build quality and performance on and off road are nowhere near as good as the Ineos Grenadier
The Land Rover Defender, if not in the garage being repaired (I have owned 10+ Land Rovers over the years), is good on and off-road but more expensive, and it does look or feel like it is as robust as the Ineos Grenadier or a real-working vehicle. The new defender is great for school runs.

I hope find this useful

John, thanks for the analysis/feedback! I agree on all points except the PickUp. PU's tend to hold their value in the US so over three to five years they should pull substantialy ahead. Huge advantage for me with a PU is the bed and hauling cement or 4x8 sheets of wood. Biggest problem with the PU's is...and this is a big one....THEY AREN"T SEXY (but who thought a tractor would be sexy

 

[StevieG]

John.

On the information you have laid out I would not be crossing the rubicon.

The jacket - I view that as pretty insignificant issue , although it does shine a light on issues around their customer service levels which we all know have taken a back seat to getting cars off the line.

The window seal failure is clearly more serious and you need to get INEOS to agree the issue and a time frame for repair.

The window seal is not a failure. Rather a consequence of the seals being too effective and not letting the water between the frame and the door to drain. This is being fixed and in any event, no water gets into the car.

 

[Roach]

Car companies are in the business of selling cars.

The North American market is one of the largest in the world.

The bulk of the population i.e. potential customers, live along the coast.
Not in rock crawling areas.

If you’re going to sell cars they have to appeal to those people. The volume of rock crawling capable vehicles sold in United States is tiny. Definitely not worth building a factory for, or creating a new brand.
For every Rsptor that I see that has dirt on it, I see 10 that the person can barely afford the payment on, spending half of every day polishing the thing.
The sizzle in this particular steak is the vague similarity to all of the desirable four-wheel-drive vehicles of the last half century.
It is literally a styling grand slam.

Are you saying; for the US market the IG is more about fashion? (Fashion might be the wrong word) If so, I don't disagree...Raptors, G-wagons, Hummer,,, I think all of them are bling to a certain degree. That isn't a bad thing necessarily, its a personal choice. For me, I am a little guilty as the IG is a little nostalgia and an oddity.

 

[Lord Ripon USA]

Are you saying; for the US market the IG is more about fashion? (Fashion might be the wrong word) If so, I don't disagree...Raptors, G-wagons, Hummer,,, I think all of them are bling to a certain degree. That isn't a bad thing necessarily, its a personal choice. For me, I am a little guilty as the IG is a little nostalgia and an oddity.

It’s not about what I think. I have no desire to set a flame the worldwide contributors to this forum.

Just look at where the dealers are, look where the orders are, and then you decide.

 

[AMD66]

Absolutely not …….and replace it with what? They are unique.
They will have some early challenges but what new to the market vehicle is nailed first time.
I have never smiled so much since I bought my first LR Defender….and I will,and am working through the little challenges, I accept it as part of the journey.

 

[Roach]

It’s not about what I think. I have no desire to set a flame the worldwide contributors to this forum.

Just look at where the dealers are, look where the orders are, and then you decide.

fair enough

 

[Tjhappel]

You don’t drive on average more than Australians or South Africans etc, I know some of you think you are special but you are not that special. Yes different horses for different courses, this horse may not be for yours, and we are ok with that. But you don’t speak for all Americans, enough of them will be ok with it to sell as many as INEOS can make I think.

Buddy have you seen either of our last two presidents?! We are very special

 

[James]

Buddy have you seen either of our last two presidents?! We are very special

Of course it’s a bad idea to go anywhere near politics, but as a resident of the well known 8 billion country you guys call ROW, only the orange one stupefies absolutely everyone….

 

[AnD3rew]

Buddy have you seen either of our last two presidents?! We are very special

Yes, hard to argue with that, particularly the one before this one. But in a country of more than 300 million people its hard to imagine these are the best you can do.

 

[DaveB]

Yes, hard to argue with that, particularly the one before this one. But in a country of more than 300 million people its hard to imagine these are the best you can do.

Yes.
we have all made bad decisions but when are we going to learn that old fools should be buying Grenadiers and visiting the Children, Grandchildren and Great Grandchildren,.
Not controlling nuclear devices,
There should be an age limit of maybe 65 and also a narcissist limit.

 

[Greg]

Being honest and not lying about everything, from the size of your "hands", how much money you have, your golf scores, the things you did, the things you didn't do....
The list goes on and on...

 

[DaveB]

Being honest and not lying about everything, from the size of your "hands", how much money you have, your golf scores, the things you did, the things you didn't do....
The list goes on and on...

My hands are average to small, i am extremely cash poor, i am average to crap at golf, I have done a shitload of things ( some good some not so much) I wish i didn't do a lot of the things I did.
I will not die wondering.
as I Thelma & Louise my Beast off a cliff.