Anyone else considering returning their Ineos Grenadier?

[Roach]

First world issues! Gotta love it…. they have a year to sort issues before your 3 come in luckily

They should be here before years end or 1st quarter (maybe wishful thinking).

 

[AnD3rew]

first thing is, even though I have a pretty much problem free grenadier for months now, and know several other people with the same, reading through a thread like this makes the situation seem bad. That;s the psychology of social media and bad news having long legs.
most people are not having problems of any consequence, and are absolutely loving the car. I mean really loving it; theres nothing like it, and im coming from a real defender.
but, ordering 3, for largely city use does seem a bit of a peculiar choice. As stated above, it is no rock crawler, or even technical 4wd machine, but it is an overlander/utility/work vehicle.
maybe, as above, get one and see how you go? Or if you feel risk averse, wait. I suppose it depends on what drew you guys so strongly to the proposition in the first place.
good luck!

Totally agree with this, I wouldn’t say mine has been totally problem free, however the one significant problem was quixkly dealt with by my agent and the rest are minor things mostly software related which I think will be fixed with an update and yours will probably never have as it should arrive with the updates done. But buying 3 as basically road cars is an odd choice. If it was me and I wanted 3 cars I would likely buy 1 Grenadier for adventure and 2 road based cars. But if you never intend to offroad or tow with it, probably not the right car for you.

 

[Roach]

@AnD3rew I would agree if all three cars were for the same person. The kids are older, married, families of their own. It might be unusual though that we have three different use cases within the same family. Looking forward to posting our experiences if we move forward.

Great point about the proper mix in car pool. One of the difficulties I’m having is to your point. At risk of people labeling me as a hater but “talking out loud” for a moment: IG is not a great road car or tow vehicle, it’s not a great long distance or even around town car. For myself it’s a great car for the weekend adventure. For the kids it’s more of a daily driver though.

 

[Lord Ripon USA]

First world issues! Gotta love it…. they have a year to sort issues before your 3 come in luckily

It’s true.
We are so spoiled.
We want (and deserve) it all.

Just by volume alone, Grenadiers will be relatively rare.

 

[Krabby]

It’s true.
We are so spoiled.
We want (and deserve) it all.

Just by volume alone, Grenadiers will be relatively rare.

According to a few internet resources, and accepting they are at least in the ball park, Jeep sells between 180,000 and 200,000 Wranglers a year. We said in the podcast 250k - which is what I honestly thought it was.

We also said in the podcast that we would use 10,000 Grens a year for NA (which would be about 2,500 more than existing pre orders). That being said, it will take 20 years to basically match a year’s Wrangler production.

A rare vehicle indeed.

 

[Lord Ripon USA]

According to a few internet resources, and accepting they are at least in the ball park, Jeep sells between 180,000 and 200,000 Wranglers a year. We said in the podcast 250k - which is what I honestly thought it was.

We also said in the podcast that we would use 10,000 Grens a year for NA (which would be about 2,500 more than existing pre orders). That being said, it will take 20 years to basically match a year’s Wrangler production.

A rare vehicle indeed.

Some of the short comings will evolve out.
Like a better steering feel.
Better rear view camera stuff.
Different radio stack.
You’re not going to sell very many cars in the United States if you can’t find parity on those three items with your competitors.
They are cheap evolutions.
It will be interesting to see overtime how well the sales pitch that mechanical seats are necessary in the event of water intrusion when crossing rivers plays out over people that just want an electric seat.

Pretty much every American car these days has got electric seats at the first trim level.

 

[Krabby]

Some of the short comings will evolve out.
Like a better steering feel.
Better rear view camera stuff.
Different radio stack.
You’re not going to sell very many cars in the United States if you can’t find parity on those three items with your competitors.
They are cheap evolutions.
It will be interesting to see overtime how well the sales pitch that mechanical seats are necessary in the event of water intrusion when crossing rivers plays out over people that just want an electric seat.

Pretty much every American car these days has got electric seats at the first trim level.

Watching the truck evolve will indeed be interesting. Despite what often frustrates ”car people“ I can see NA getting a different version than other continents in the not too distant future. This works in our favor sometimes (think NAS Defender getting the V8 the ROW wanted) or against us (in this segment, not getting the proper Defender itself but for 3 short years in the mid 90s).

I can easily see separation that gives NA an upstream, more posh version that will have to make sacrifices in capability to make way for technology, convenience, etc.

I can’t comment as to if this is good or bad, but it’s something I believe will happen.

 

[Lord Ripon USA]

Watching the truck evolve will indeed be interesting. Despite what often frustrates ”car people“ I can see NA getting a different version than other continents in the not too distant future. This works in our favor sometimes (think NAS Defender getting the V8 the ROW wanted) or against us (in this segment, not getting the proper Defender itself but for 3 short years in the mid 90s).

I can easily see separation that gives NA an upstream, more posh version that will have to make sacrifices in capability to make way for technology, convenience, etc.

I can’t comment as to if this is good or bad, but it’s something I believe will happen.

Yes, I don’t mind the evolutions.

Some matter to me, some don’t.

It’s a body on frame solid axle vehicle. There’s only so much you can do with that. But I do think the vehicle weighs way too much. Which impacts it in all kinds of different ways.

Modern cars gotta have a whole bunch of power ports, those are cheap to add.
Every Overlander uses some form of device or tablet for their Maps. It’s silly to not be set up to accommodate that right out of the box.
Lighted visor too.
Again, it’s just a competition thing. Now if you are volume limited to 10,000 cars a year, and you can sell every one of them without making any changes, do that. But if the volume starts to drop off, you have to fight fire with fire.

I’ve retooled a lot of factories.

 

[James]

Some of the short comings will evolve out.
Like a better steering feel.
Better rear view camera stuff.
Different radio stack.
You’re not going to sell very many cars in the United States if you can’t find parity on those three items with your competitors.
They are cheap evolutions.
It will be interesting to see overtime how well the sales pitch that mechanical seats are necessary in the event of water intrusion when crossing rivers plays out over people that just want an electric seat.

Pretty much every American car these days has got electric seats at the first trim level.

I really hope this doesnt happen - I understand your perspective, but the ‘drag’ towards matching perceived competitors to add frills and complexity, or compromise strength like with ‘better’ steering feel, (that is actually weaker than this strong choice), well all of that is going against why the grenadier exists.
By that I mean that the other companies following the volume end of the market has left this niche free for Ineos to see.
The seats are not electric because of water crossings, they are manual because it is better, and simpler, quicker to use, and cheaper. I know lots of people like electric, and as you say nearly every other car gives it to them. That’s fine too.

the US market seems the most intent on adding things; Ineos seems fairly committed to just meeting legislation. There are rumours of a ‘luxury’ grenadier, which would have many of us quietly hoping it doesn't affect the underpinnings of the ‘real’ car.

I am really not arguing with anyone who wants this stuff; its just that there are already SO MANY options that fulfill it. Being authentically engineered, the grenadier is appealing to people, who then seem to want to mess with the ethos that gives it authenticity. Cant have it both ways - not for long anyway, it’ll become just another disco.

 

[AnD3rew]

@AnD3rew I would agree if all three cars were for the same person. The kids are older, married, families of their own. It might be unusual though that we have three different use cases within the same family. Looking forward to posting our experiences if we move forward.

Great point about the proper mix in car pool. One of the difficulties I’m having is to your point. At risk of people labeling me as a hater but “talking out loud” for a moment: IG is not a great road car or tow vehicle, it’s not a great long distance or even around town car. For myself it’s a great car for the weekend adventure. For the kids it’s more of a daily driver though.

Totally disgree that it’s not a great long distance tourer, I am currently on a two week trip that has already had several 1000km days and it has been superbly comfortable and confident whatever the road surface, highway, narrow country roads gravel roads, gravel roads with corrugations (washboard) beach, awesome in all of them, I would venture to say the best touring vehicle I have ever owned. I haven’t towed with it yet but plenty have and have reported that it is a supurb tow vehicle. The only bit I agree with you on is that It’s not a brilliant around town car, its wide for parking spots, it’s turning circle is wide and you have to work hard to manoeuvre it in tight spaces and it is too tall for most underground car parking, particularly with roof rack on. That’s why we have a 1.5litre small car for town driving and the Grenadier is for road trips and adventures.

 

[AnD3rew]

I really hope this doesnt happen - I understand your perspective, but the ‘drag’ towards matching perceived competitors to add frills and complexity, or compromise strength like with ‘better’ steering feel, (that is actually weaker than this strong choice), well all of that is going against why the grenadier exists.
By that I mean that the other companies following the volume end of the market has left this niche free for Ineos to see.
The seats are not electric because of water crossings, they are manual because it is better, and simpler, quicker to use, and cheaper. I know lots of people like electric, and as you say nearly every other car gives it to them. That’s fine too.

the US market seems the most intent on adding things; Ineos seems fairly committed to just meeting legislation. There are rumours of a ‘luxury’ grenadier, which would have many of us quietly hoping it doesn't affect the underpinnings of the ‘real’ car.

I am really not arguing with anyone who wants this stuff; its just that there are already SO MANY options that fulfill it. Being authentically engineered, the grenadier is appealing to people, who then seem to want to mess with the ethos that gives it authenticity. Cant have it both ways - not for long anyway, it’ll become just another disco.

@Lord Ripon USA I totally agree with James here, our market isn’t that different from the US there are tons of generic SUV options with all that bling on the market, one of the appeals of the Grenadier is that it dares to be different. They don’t expect it to be a mass market car and they will likely sell as many as their production capacity allows. If you want a bloated luxury barge there are tons of other options and if the Grenadier tried to compete in that space it would in fact be more likely to fail, not less. It isn’t for everyone, it might not be for you.

 

[James]

Totally disgree that it’s not a great long distance tourer, I am currently on a two week trip that has already had several 1000km days and it has been superbly comfortable and confident whatever the road surface, highway, narrow country roads gravel roads, gravel roads with corrugations (washboard) beach, awesome in all of them, I would venture to say the best touring vehicle I have ever owned. I haven’t towed with it yet but plenty have and have reported that it is a supurb tow vehicle. The only bit I agree with you on is that It’s not a brilliant around town car, its wide for parking spots, it’s turning circle is wide and you have to work hard to manoeuvre it in tight spaces and it is too tall for most underground car parking, particularly with roof rack on. That’s why we have a 1.5litre small car for town driving and the Grenadier is for road trips and adventures.

Absolutely concur - also had a couple of 900km days, and it is the best long distance tourer ive ever owned, and that was a surprise, was not expecting it to be this good at that bit.
I do love my super small city car too….

 

[Lord Ripon USA]

@Lord Ripon USA I totally agree with James here, our market isn’t that different from the US there are tons of generic SUV options with all that bling on the market, one of the appeals of the Grenadier is that it dares to be different. They don’t expect it to be a mass market car and they will likely sell as many as their production capacity allows. If you want a bloated luxury barge there are tons of other options and if the Grenadier tried to compete in that space it would in fact be more likely to fail, not less. It isn’t for everyone, it might not be for you.

Different horses for different courses.
Americans drive far more than ROW people do.
That gets reflected in their vehicle perception.

Ineos can say. No, it’s not what we are about, and then let the market decide.

 

[GrenADV]

I really hope this doesnt happen - I understand your perspective, but the ‘drag’ towards matching perceived competitors to add frills and complexity, or compromise strength like with ‘better’ steering feel, (that is actually weaker than this strong choice), well all of that is going against why the grenadier exists.
By that I mean that the other companies following the volume end of the market has left this niche free for Ineos to see.
The seats are not electric because of water crossings, they are manual because it is better, and simpler, quicker to use, and cheaper. I know lots of people like electric, and as you say nearly every other car gives it to them. That’s fine too.

the US market seems the most intent on adding things; Ineos seems fairly committed to just meeting legislation. There are rumours of a ‘luxury’ grenadier, which would have many of us quietly hoping it doesn't affect the underpinnings of the ‘real’ car.

I am really not arguing with anyone who wants this stuff; its just that there are already SO MANY options that fulfill it. Being authentically engineered, the grenadier is appealing to people, who then seem to want to mess with the ethos that gives it authenticity. Cant have it both ways - not for long anyway, it’ll become just another disco.

Totally agreed.

What’s interesting to me is that on one hand people complain about the cost of the Grenadier already being way too high, and then on the other hand, they’re interested in all of the things that clearly would increase the cost (and likely far beyond what it is today). The problem is one that I also often see at work when you have to convince an unskilled executive why they should invest in very expensive (and critical) building components that are typically out of sight (for example chillers, boilers, air handling units, generators, etc…) instead of the more aesthetic items (like paint, furniture, mill work, etc…). In the case of the Grenadier, I think many of us would rather the lions share of the cost of the vehicle be put into the mechanical components, than the aesthetics/comfort/luxury items.

I’m curious, for those that want and can afford a luxury version of the Grenadier, then why not consider buying the G-wagon? I feel like that’s a fairly natural luxury trim level of the grennie, while keeping the look and feel of a classic boxy 4x4.

 

[AnD3rew]

Different horses for different courses.
Americans drive far more than ROW people do.
That gets reflected in their vehicle perception.

Ineos can say. No, it’s not what we are about, and then let the market decide.

You don’t drive on average more than Australians or South Africans etc, I know some of you think you are special but you are not that special. Yes different horses for different courses, this horse may not be for yours, and we are ok with that. But you don’t speak for all Americans, enough of them will be ok with it to sell as many as INEOS can make I think.

 

[six1five]

My perspective- I've owned luxury cars in the past, but my most recent vehicles have been pretty bare bones. Wife get's the fully loaded car and I want that for her. I've enjoyed the no frills aspect of my truck, not just for the cost of the truck, but the ease of maintenance. Even my '93 110 ROW is pretty spartan overall. Wife convinced me to buy a nicer truck to hold me over when I first put in my reservation. It was stolen before I could even give them my check (long story). Would I have enjoyed the fancy features? Sure. But I think the Grenadier is a nice landing spot for my needs and still have the serviceability without paying luxury brand tax. Even if Ineos made a high end Grenadier, I don't think I would 1) justify the cost and 2) want the extra headache of more advanced electronics to deal with. That being said, I know what I'm getting myself into and the journey has been well worth it. I've already mentally prepared myself for any issues that may arise and look forward to being a part of Ineos' journey into the automotive market. I say Godspeed and enjoy the ride.

 

[bigleonski]

You don’t drive on average more than Australians or South Africans etc, I know some of you think you are special but you are not that special. Yes different horses for differences courses, this horse may not be for yours, and we are ok with that. But you don’t speak for all Americans, enough of them will be ok with it to sell as many as INEOS can make I think.

I’d also suggest most Americans and most Australians / Saffas don’t drive any more than 6,000-10,000 miles a year if they drive that much.
But those that do, drive more than just about anyone else in the world. Big countries.

 

[DaveB]

Different horses for different courses.
Americans drive far more than ROW people do.
That gets reflected in their vehicle perception.

Ineos can say. No, it’s not what we are about, and then let the market decide.

That is so funny
Americans drive far more than the rest of the world do???????
It's a shame they don't travel more, then they would stop believing this kind of crap.
Then again maybe it is a good thing
Some americans drive a lot, some americans don't own cars, some Americans (11.5% or 39.2 Million) live below the poverty line so probably don't drive a lot.
I could probably make the same generalisations about most 1st world countries.
Well except the poverty bit.
I think the type of vehicles is based more on the types of roads rather than some nonsensical statements.
Europe has lots of small, narrow, crowded roads so they tend to have smaller vehicles.
US has long, straight, smooth roads, with some high altitude winding roads, so totally different vehicle requirements.
As Australia is physically the same size as mainland USA, we also have long straight, winding, high elevation roads, but rarely smooth.
We also don't tend to like soft suspension or body roll.
Reliability and robustness is significantly more important than fancy gadgets.

 

[Lord Ripon USA]

It’s pretty common for me to hit 100k every 3 years.
A western bird swing is 6-8,000 miles.
We have the infrastructure and the distances to cover.
Our fuel is cheap by comparison.

It is what it is.
No reason to be hostile about it.

Just read the thread contributions from American outdoorsmen on the site.
lots of highway time, limited unimproved road time. Preference toward comfort.

 

[AnD3rew]

It’s pretty common for me to hit 100k every 3 years.
A western bird swing is 6-8,000 miles.
We have the infrastructure and the distances to cover.
Our fuel is cheap by comparison.

It is what it is.
No reason to be hostile about it.

Just read the thread contributions from American outdoorsmen on the site.
lots of highway time, limited unimproved road time. Preference toward comfort.

You sound like you want a luxo barge SUV, the Grenadier is plenty comfortable for long distance touring but isn’t all luxo barge. I don’t think it’s for you, you shouldn’t buy one.