15% price increase? Bulls**t

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Keep in mind also that Ineos will only be looking to sell around 5,000 units in the US maybe increasing to 10,000 at most.
Unless they decide to buy/build a factory over there.
If they do that then they will be able to sell the dual cab ute/pickup in the US and that would make it a lot more attractive to them .
I wonder if there are any buildings for sale down near Spartanburg.
Be a good source for the engines and gearboxes

Good idea. I think the likelihood (at least in the near term) of a full factory in the USA is slim; Hambach can do a lot more than they need and from what I read has room for expansion. But, I can see a sub-assembly making sense - basically, have them XX% built in Hambach, and then final assembly being done stateside to dodge the Chicken tax.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

If the dealer does a market adjustment on an order I'd be out for sure. (If I wasn't legally bound).

Not sure if that has been happening with Ford and co if it is a factory order. I wouldn't expect so and could see the mfr outlawing that esp if starting new.

Dealer stock otoh - if that ever happens - could be price adjusted. Supply and demand etc.

I'll be ordering, same as my last few vehicles, and would endeavour to put price protection in the contract.

Different country though, so who knows.

Yeah I’ll want to be sure price certainty is in my contract also.

I do think there are a few dealers who flubbed factory orders but I’m not sure if it was “playing games” or if it was just bad luck — some folks have ordered MY ‘22 and waited for months for delivery, only to have dealers come back and say “ Sorry, couldn’t get the MY ’22 but we can transfer your order to MY ’23 and it’ll only cost you $10k more…”. That may be totally not the dealer’s fault and it may just be the reality of the microchip shortages from last year, but car dealers don’t exactly have a squeaky clean reputation for ethics and I wouldn’t put it past them to play this game to pad the bottom line on factory orders.

I would also be out if there was a market adjustment.

 

[Krabby]

@ChasingOurTrunks The status symbol suggestion is a fear. I agree that Ineos isn’t projecting the Grenadier as something it’s not but in the US posing abounds. Think rich, blonde, Ugg-wearing “influencer” white girls with their Northface jacket, Carhartt beanie and yoga pants outfits. For that matter, think of most Americans who buy G-Wagons and Range Rovers. Technically, driving over the flower box at the end of the driveway is off-roading I guess …

 

[DaveB]

Good idea. I think the likelihood (at least in the near term) of a full factory in the USA is slim; Hambach can do a lot more than they need and from what I read has room for expansion. But, I can see a sub-assembly making sense - basically, have them XX% built in Hambach, and then final assembly being done stateside to dodge the Chicken tax.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking also
Bring over the body in white or as complete kits
Source the engine/gearbox and suspension locally
I have heard 45,000 and 75,000 as Hambach maximum capacity so no idea what is true.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

@ChasingOurTrunks The status symbol suggestion is a fear. I agree that Ineos isn’t projecting the Grenadier as something it’s not but in the US posing abounds. Think rich, blonde, Ugg-wearing “influencer” white girls with their Northface jacket, Carhartt beanie and yoga pants outfits. For that matter, think of most Americans who buy G-Wagons and Range Rovers. Technically, driving over the flower box at the end of the driveway is off-roading I guess …

I think a lot of potential Gren owners would be okay with someone of that description in the passengers seat, though

(I’m kidding. Wife, are you watching this thread?)

(Fellas, if I don’t post in a few days send a rescue party)

(Kidding again - my bride is lovely!)

 

[DaveB]

@ChasingOurTrunks The status symbol suggestion is a fear. I agree that Ineos isn’t projecting the Grenadier as something it’s not but in the US posing abounds. Think rich, blonde, Ugg-wearing “influencer” white girls with their Northface jacket, Carhartt beanie and yoga pants outfits. For that matter, think of most Americans who buy G-Wagons and Range Rovers. Technically, driving over the flower box at the end of the driveway is off-roading I guess …

That's not limited to the US
You just described 80% of the women in my neighbourhood
Drop the kids off at school in their SUV's (lots of MB's) 30 minutes of yoga and then go an "do coffee" for two hours
I suggested once that they take it in turns meeting at each others houses and "Do housework" ,then they wouldn't need the yoga and they could still wear the lulu lemons gear and have coffee, or more likely wine.
It hasn't caught on yet

 

[DCPU]

I have heard 45,000 and 75,000 as Hambach maximum capacity so no idea what is true.

Quoting Mark Tennant:

“We’re planning on 25,000 to 30,000 a year when we get up to peak,” he told us. “We can build more, that’s on a two-shift pattern. On three shifts, we could do 50,000, but we’ve said from the beginning, this is a niche proposition, we’re not taking on the big boys. What we’ve said is there’s a white space in this market because a number of other vehicles that used to inhabit it have departed and we need to have a business case that works on niche numbers."

 

[Tazzieman]

Quoting Mark Tennant:

“We’re planning on 25,000 to 30,000 a year when we get up to peak,” he told us. “We can build more, that’s on a two-shift pattern. On three shifts, we could do 50,000, but we’ve said from the beginning, this is a niche proposition, we’re not taking on the big boys. What we’ve said is there’s a white space in this market because a number of other vehicles that used to inhabit it have departed and we need to have a business case that works on niche numbers."

I like that. I always say , if everyone had a Porsche it wouldn't be so special! It would be like a Toyota or a Ford I guess.

 

[DCPU]

If you were following the grenadier from the start from within the US, you'd see that product get rolled out internationally with price quotes, deposits, and guarantees that make the release in the US not only look like an afterthought

Has Ineos ever really answered why the US market is not in the initial rollout?

I suspect the kind of people interested in buying a grenadier are like me and keep their vehicles for 10+ years, hundreds of thousands of miles, and repair their vehicles themselves when humanly possibly. We're very loyal to brands and expect honesty and transparency.

I think you are part of a sub-set of owners. It was very much a similar experience with Landrover.

The issue was always whilst your loyalty would be exploited by the company for brand equity purposes, you were always "useless" to the company in terms of generating a regular income stream.

 

[Tazzieman]

Has Ineos ever really answered why the US market is not in the initial rollout?

Was it not because of the issue with LAWYERS? Something to do with Land Rover USA getting all antsy? Let alone other many other laws that have to be appeased.
USA has a love affair with # lawyers. In the eyes of the world they appear to run the country.

 

[DaveB]

Has Ineos ever really answered why the US market is not in the initial rollout?




I think you are part of a sub-set of owners. It was very much a similar experience with Landrover.

The issue was always whilst your loyalty would be exploited by the company for brand equity purposes, you were always "useless" to the company in terms of generating a regular income stream.

I have heard various answers to this with the last one being last Thursday face to face
They had no idea how many orders they were going to get at the start and were concerned they would get more than they could handle without the US
US approvals and documentation was taking a lot longer than they had planned
US specifications would be different to the standardised European/Australian/UK and SA spec
Dealer model problems in the US

 

[DCPU]

Their model was originally to do direct sales, but thanks to laws in the US written by dealership-paid lobbyists, they aren’t able to do that.

I've read it's not a blanket ban though. I understand that it would be perfectly legal in a number of states, including a number of the most populated ones.

It would be possible for Ineos to ride Tesla's coat tails in many states.

As an example, California franchise law only prohibits manufacturers from competing with franchised
dealers selling the same make in a particular market area. This provides for
manufacturers to engage in direct-sales so long as no existing franchise is engaged in the
sale of the same make in the area.

This has been their MO from the start though — they’ve been ridiculously transparent with this vehicle from day 1. Most manufacturers keep things quiet till they are ready to put the cars in the hands of customers — camouflage the design for testing, don’t even announce they are planning a new model till it’s in production, etc. Ineos has pulled back the curtain basically since that day in the Pub.

This is great spin from the company. As a completely new entity they've had to build a brand from the ground up and get punters engaged with the story. Without the vehicle this would have been impossible.

Comparison with existing manufacturers is missing the point as to why they keep things quiet till they are ready to put the cars in the hands of customers.

Where's all the open curtain access to the double cab, 7 seat station wagon, electric version, hydrogen fuel cell development. All behind closed doors now so as not to distract from the product they actually have to sell.

— including the contentious stuff where they’ve had to pivot, like abandoning the idea of building in Wales (which cost them a few customers who are nostalgic for the days of the sun never setting on their empire!). But they were up front about it, and that’s a very unusual approach for a car company to take.

Stopping works on a building site and laying off workers was never going to happen behind closed doors.

I might add that there's nothing wrong, and plenty good, with what Ineos have been doing, it's been nice to follow the story; but it's been a product of the circumstances and a very deliberate marketing plan which seems to stopped with regard to future product.

 

[DCPU]

Yeah I’ll want to be sure price certainty is in my contract also.

Good luck with that ~ it's not in the existing contract I've seen.

 

[DaveB]

I've read it's not a blanket ban though. I understand that it would be perfectly legal in a number of states, including a number of the most populated ones.

It would be possible for Ineos to ride Tesla's coat tails in many states.

As an example, California franchise law only prohibits manufacturers from competing with franchised
dealers selling the same make in a particular market area. This provides for
manufacturers to engage in direct-sales so long as no existing franchise is engaged in the
sale of the same make in the area.


This is great spin from the company. As a completely new entity they've had to build a brand from the ground up and get punters engaged with the story. Without the vehicle this would have been impossible.

Comparison with existing manufacturers is missing the point as to why they keep things quiet till they are ready to put the cars in the hands of customers.

Where's all the open curtain access to the double cab, 7 seat station wagon, electric version, hydrogen fuel cell development. All behind closed doors now so as not to distract from the product they actually have to sell.



Stopping works on a building site and laying off workers was never going to happen behind closed doors.

I might add that there's nothing wrong, and plenty good, with what Ineos have been doing, it's been nice to follow the story; but it's been a product of the circumstances and a very deliberate marketing plan which seems to stopped with regard to future product.

The reveal on the other products will happen after they get the current one to market
They will refine the model to make up for their mistakes and then they will do the whole thing again with the dual cab ute
Then 2 years after they will do the hydrogen or the electric.
You need to phase these things in so you don't swamp one with the other.
I am currently travelling the country launching a new product range and planning 2023, 2024 and 2026 launches of new products that augment the same range
Then we start the 2027+ products

 

[DCPU]

That's the point ~ they are doing these things just like every other manufacturer...

 

[FlyingTexan]

Completely besides the point. It’s not about the price but the practices. They remade statements for the past year and a half at the height of Covid and all supply issues of what the cost will be. They released spec sheets with pricing of what it would cost. They deliver ZERO and already have pulled a Rivian.

They went off a free marketing campaign at your expense by touting the low price and being for enthusiasts. They said they were doing 15k preorders. Now they’re saying because of how many orders they have (well past the 15k) they’re going to up the price. They used us for a supply/demand study for market value. Ultimately a lie at your expense.

I don’t want to sound like I am bashing Flyingtexan, as he is clearly pi**ed of enough already (as would I be).

However, I am not sure how many British and more than likely European car drivers start ranting about American produced cars that are way much more to buy in the UK than they are in America.

There is a well known American made work boot company that are now well liked as a fashion brand worldwide. The boots in America are not a bad price. However in the UK they are £300 a pair (two IA alloy wheels worth).

My point is it’s a two way street and all these manufacturers will quote importation costs….for a reason !

I think our American cousins might also have a shock when the American IG main dealers get involved. I hear they like to throw MSRP’s out the window and charge whatever they feel like.

 

[DaveB]

That's the point ~ they are doing these things just like every other manufacturer...

yes they are

 

[DCPU]

Was it not because of the issue with LAWYERS? Something to do with Land Rover USA getting all antsy? Let alone other many other laws that have to be appeased.
USA has a love affair with # lawyers. In the eyes of the world they appear to run the country.

I think it was Ineos who have gone to the lawyers first in the US, looking to get JLR's trade dress rights struck out.

JLR seem to be stringing it out, and the last I saw it was due for a determination but I've not seen it yet.

Hogan Lovells Attorneys Enter Trade Dress Dispute for Jaguar Land Rover | New Jersey Law Journal

This suit was surfaced by Law.com Radar. Read the complaint here.

www.law.com

 

[FlyingTexan]

FlyingTexan,

What’s your grocery bill looking like these days as compared to two years ago? Seems pretty clear to me why the price is going up.

Option 1) Ineos raises prices as a result of the worldwide inflation issue, just like literally every other auto manufacturer is doing.

Option 2) they lose money on every vehicle sold and the business isn’t viable and it shutters.

Which decision would you have made?

Feel free to be pissed off and go buy a different truck (which will cost you as much as 90% more than it used to based on the info provided by DaveB) but you are accusing the company of doing a bait and switch because “prices have come down” and thus the increase is not justified — I’d love to see an example of literally anything except stocks and houses that are cheaper now than they were two years ago. Again - I don’t like the price increase in EU/Aus either..but I’m actually surprised it’s not way worse at this stage given the way things are right now.

I’ve seen our fuel pricing drop by 1/3rd for our flight department. I’ve seen all components come drastically down in pricing and that’s for jets. They did do a bait and switch. During the peak of Covid they stated their pricing. Now it’s higher. Not sure where you’re shopping but vehicle pricing has definitely been on the decline here. Dealership lots that were empty are filling up again. Price of food is mostly annual and pretty much all revolves around the cost of oil for both fuel and the natural gas that makes 80% of the fertilizer used. Food it’s a preordered component. But I’ve seen decreases in pricing on a lot of things (especially electronics) and in my personal field which is probably very close to automotive have seen large decreases in cost to most components. The last tire I replaced was $6k down from almost $18k during the height of the pandemic which is exactly when they started talking pricing.

 

[DCPU]

They deliver ZERO and already have pulled a Rivian.

As I understand it, Rivian increased the price to order holders after taking deposits but before delivering any vehicles. There was a big fuss, and they reversed the decision. Where's the comparison with what Ineos have done?

They said they were doing 15k preorders. Now they’re saying because of how many orders they have (well past the 15k) they’re going to up the price.

I'd be happy to know where they said that, it's certainly passed me by...