Land Rover feeling the Heat?

AWo · Sep 20, 2023

Yes, but there must be synergy effects. When BMW bought Rover, that ended in a desaster. Mr. Reitzle predicted that and just wanted to buy Land Rover becaue of Range Rover and leave Rover behind. He told his friend Mr. Schremp (Mercedes) not to buy Mitsubishi, as the technology (which was one expected synergy effect) was not compatible between both brands. Another desaster.
When Land Rover was owned by Ford, that did't work, as well. They put all in under one roof so the Range Rover customer was standing next to the Ka or Fiesta customer.

Ford was up to sell Aston Martin to Mr Bez, who came from Porsche and Daewoo, they agreed on that. However, US law made it impossible, as Mr. Bez was a Ford employee at that time (making Aston Martin profitable for the first time) and an company is not allowed to sell parts of itself to employees.

Stellantis bought Jeep/Chrysler, after they already owned shares of. At that time they needed to take a decision between Jeep Wrangler and the IVECO Massif (who just tried to get grip in the 4x4 market with the Massif) as they suddenly owned two brands selling similar 4x4s. As Massif had not really started to become successful (to early), they stopped that model.

AWo

Bryan · Sep 21, 2023

klarie said:
@curb-optional strange questions you re asking?
Grenadier in congested city?
Highway / Motorway use?
If that is the primary purpose Grenadier perhaps is a wrong decision.
Get a Prius instead.
@Bryan BMW, Mercedes Stellantis etc purchase what might fit im their portfolio and serves a market they want to be in.

I fully disagree.

Mercedes and Stellantis are already in this market with the G wagon and Jeep.

BMW is basically a luxury and performance car brand. They don't even make LCV vehicles.

JLR and Tata are both in the same market of the Grenadier, Tata is one of the largest commercial car manufacturers in India.

Another good guess would be Mahindra. In fact the Grenadier would be a great replacement for the Mahindra Scorpio.

And don't forget the Chinese...

Wilaspira · Sep 21, 2023

LR is clearly very relaxed about the Grenadier, since they have a cunning plan …….(a plan that is clearly many years in the making [“shome mishtake shurely: Ed”] and in no way a desperate knee jerk reaction to the evidence that there just might be a financially viable niche market for overland vehicles in the mould of the Grenadier (and historically the Defender)

RE: Land Rover introduces classic Defender accessories - Page 1 - General Gassing - PistonHeads UK

curb-optional · Sep 25, 2023

klarie said:
@curb-optional strange questions you re asking?
Grenadier in congested city?
Highway / Motorway use?
If that is the primary purpose Grenadier perhaps is a wrong decision.
Get a Prius instead.
@Bryan BMW, Mercedes Stellantis etc purchase what might fit im their portfolio and serves a market they want to be in.

I've driven a Land Rover a decade, and I'm looking for more truck-like, so the ND is a realistic alternative to IG. Are you trying to suggest that your part of Germany doesn't have Land Cruisers, GXs, 4Rrunners, and Jeeps, like the Grand Cherokee? There are so many capable SUVs that can handle both on road and off road, that you are not making any sense what-so-ever. Suggesting a Prius is an IG alternative is brain dead. You're overlooking so many capable SUVs in-between, you're either smoking something or you're trying really hard to be irrelevant and nonsensical.

Logsplitter · Sep 25, 2023

Bryan said:
I fully disagree.

Mercedes and Stellantis are already in this market with the G wagon and Jeep.

BMW is basically a luxury and performance car brand. They don't even make LCV vehicles.

JLR and Tata are both in the same market of the Grenadier, Tata is one of the largest commercial car manufacturers in India.

Another good guess would be Mahindra. In fact the Grenadier would be a great replacement for the Mahindra Scorpio.

And don't forget the Chinese...

In a bar the other night watching rugby with a load of Afrikaans guys and they were all taking the piss out of the Mahindra double cab pickups that you so so many of in South Africa now. Referring to them as Mahindra Coolie Cruisers

. They sound like they have a bag of nails in the engine.

klarie · Sep 25, 2023

curb-optional said:
I've driven a Land Rover a decade, and I'm looking for more truck-like, so the ND is a realistic alternative to IG. Are you trying to suggest that your part of Germany doesn't have Land Cruisers, GXs, 4Rrunners, and Jeeps, like the Grand Cherokee? There are so many capable SUVs that can handle both on road and off road, that you are not making any sense what-so-ever. Suggesting a Prius is an IG alternative is brain dead. You're overlooking so many capable SUVs in-between, you're either smoking something or you're trying really hard to be irrelevant and nonsensical.

The prius was a sarcastic joke. The Grenadier is not for downtown use. And a comparison between Cherokee ? Nope. If any current vehicle is somewhat close then a 4 door Wrangler.
I will for sure not take the Grenadier into Frankfurt city ..

anand · Sep 25, 2023

klarie said:
I will for sure not take the Grenadier into Frankfurt city ..

Interesting statement... I have no problems navigating through the heart of any major US city (or even easily parking, assuming it isn't in a garage) in our 10' (3.05m) tall, 20' (6.1m) long Sprinter van. I haven't been through a European city in upwards of 20 years at this point, but an interesting comment from you to consider, as we are loosely planning an extended European trip (~6mo) and shipping our Sprinter over in the next few years.

Voader - Oudersopzwier · Sep 25, 2023

klarie said:
The prius was a sarcastic joke. The Grenadier is not for downtown use. And a comparison between Cherokee ? Nope. If any current vehicle is somewhat close then a 4 door Wrangler.
I will for sure not take the Grenadier into Frankfurt city ..

Indeed, also my conclusion. The Grenadier is standing closer to a tractor or a Unimog (or an old defender) than a New defender or any other luxury SUV. These are complete different vehicles. I love my old defender, I surely love my Grenadier. But if someone has a doubt to choose between a New defender or a Grenadier, then I suggest go for the New defender.

klarie · Sep 25, 2023

anand said:
Interesting statement... I have no problems navigating through the heart of any major US city (or even easily parking, assuming it isn't in a garage) in our 10' (3.05m) tall, 20' (6.1m) long Sprinter van. I haven't been through a European city in upwards of 20 years at this point, but an interesting comment from you to consider, as we are loosely planning an extended European trip (~6mo) and shipping our Sprinter over in the next few years.

Most underground car parks may have a headroom of 1.8 to 2m somewhat 6 feet.
the space a car in older inner city multi storey car parks are barely 5 m long and perhaps 2.30 wide. The designers had perhaps an old volkswagen beetle or if large a mercedes W115 aka dash 8 in mind. I used a car park in downtown Luxemburg City former casemate,
I had to climb through rear door to get to the steering wheel of my GLK no way to open any of the side doors. I am 1.82 m tall I could easy lay my hand on ceiling. Maneuvering some large vehicle means searching for any open space car park or ask aunt google for car parks that have sufficient headroom for large vehicle.
I had once rented a mercedes S 320 limousine.. the rental company had no smaller left.
The employees at company I visited in NL had a good fun watching me maneuver the car in the guests space ., it was about 3 feet longer than space so a bit on pedestrian and a bit on private road. So its fun driving on motorway but.. Older, historic towns with medival core .. ugly.
Leave the car outside and use a scooter

DaveB · Sep 25, 2023

klarie said:
Most underground car parks may have a headroom of 1.8 to 2m somewhat 6 feet.
the space a car in older inner city multi storey car parks are barely 5 m long and perhaps 2.30 wide. The designers had perhaps an old volkswagen beetle or if large a mercedes W115 aka dash 8 in mind. I used a car park in downtown Luxemburg City former casemate,
I had to climb through rear door to get to the steering wheel of my GLK no way to open any of the side doors. I am 1.82 m tall I could easy lay my hand on ceiling. Maneuvering some large vehicle means searching for any open space car park or ask aunt google for car parks that have sufficient headroom for large vehicle.
I had once rented a mercedes S 320 limousine.. the rental company had no smaller left.
The employees at company I visited in NL had a good fun watching me maneuver the car in the guests space ., it was about 3 feet longer than space so a bit on pedestrian and a bit on private road. So its fun driving on motorway but.. Older, historic towns with medival core .. ugly.
Leave the car outside and use a scooter

I had similar problem in Brisbane (Australia) with my Mazda BT50
Most underground carparks are 1.95 - 2.05 Metres maximum.
my vehicle was 2.15 Metres to the top of the roof bars.

grenadierboy · Sep 26, 2023

DaveB said:
I had similar problem in Brisbane (Australia) with my Mazda BT50
Most underground carparks are 1.95 - 2.05 Metres maximum.
my vehicle was 2.15 Metres to the top of the roof bars.

View attachment 7827836

My local shopping centre (1.5km from home) has done me a favour - the underground carpark I always use is 2.00m height = no Grenadier.

I used to sometimes take the G Wagen (1.98m) but now either wife goes shopping or I take her car (EQA250) or walk with dog.

DaveB · Sep 26, 2023

grenadierboy said:
My local shopping centre (1.5km from home) has done me a favour - the underground carpark I always use is 2.00m height = no Grenadier.

I used to sometimes take the G Wagen (1.98m) but now either wife goes shopping or I take her car (EQA250) or walk with dog.

I was in a shopping centre carpark once and a person (who may or may not identify as a woman) drove in at about 40kmh in a Toyota Landcruiser with a suspension lift, big tyres, a roof rack and gear on the rack.
She ripped out cable trays, fire hydrant piping, lights and finally sewer pipes.
Then the roof rack finally ripped off doing massive damage to the roof and sides of the vehicle.
Very impressive toughness of the roof rack as the vehicle roof failed, not the rack.
Not sure how her insurance company would have gone with the 10kmh speed limit but the cops weren't impressed. Less impressed because they couldn't book her.
Luckily I was in my car and parked far enough away that I was able to drive out of the carnage zone.
Had to have damaged 50 cars or more.
Those fire hydrant pipes can sure pump some water out.
Not to mention the 5 or so stories of toilets above the sewer pipes.

anand · Sep 26, 2023

DaveB said:
I was in a shopping centre carpark once and a person (who may or may not identify as a woman) drove in at about 40kmh in a Toyota Landcruiser with a suspension lift, big tyres, a roof rack and gear on the rack.
She ripped out cable trays, fire hydrant piping, lights and finally sewer pipes.
Then the roof rack finally ripped off doing massive damage to the roof and sides of the vehicle.
Very impressive toughness of the roof rack as the vehicle roof failed, not the rack.

The wife of a guy in the local Toyota group has a New Wrangler Rubicon that is lifted on 40"s that gets wheeled hard on the weekends, but is also her daily driver into the city... When she got the 40"s put on, he went through the entire 5 floor parking garage that she parks in with measuring tape and a can of neon orange spray paint and sprayed anything that was actually lower than the stated clearance (she clears the entry to the garage by only an inch or so if I recall correctly). He found that LOTS of the fire sprinklers and other piping hung a few inches lower than they were supposed to, and now they are all bright orange so she knows to avoid those areas

klarie · Sep 26, 2023

Voader - Oudersopzwier said:
Indeed, also my conclusion. The Grenadier is standing closer to a tractor or a Unimog (or an old defender) than a New defender or any other luxury SUV. These are complete different vehicles. I love my old defender, I surely love my Grenadier. But if someone has a doubt to choose between a New defender or a Grenadier, then I suggest go for the New defender.

Indeed! According to @curb-optional statement to use the Grenadier like a Grand Cherokee or similar vehicles - then indeed a New Defender is a better choice. To me it seems he rather needs a large station wagon with a little bit of OffRoad capability. So in this case the a SUV type vehicle that is lower than 2m - and more on road used.

A real offroader in town - is possible but most certainly - need to be well planned where to park and what roads to use. - also it may become expensive ( e.g London city) If that is a regular use case - a Grenadier is the wrong choice.

tnkatoy · Sep 27, 2023

klarie said:
Indeed! According to @curb-optional statement to use the Grenadier like a Grand Cherokee or similar vehicles - then indeed a New Defender is a better choice. To me it seems he rather needs a large station wagon with a little bit of OffRoad capability. So in this case the a SUV type vehicle that is lower than 2m - and more on road used.

A real offroader in town - is possible but most certainly - need to be well planned where to park and what roads to use. - also it may become expensive ( e.g London city) If that is a regular use case - a Grenadier is the wrong choice.

There are defiantly buyers for LandRover / Range Rover products (the two brands are almost synonymous with their vehicles now) what I don't get is that the new defender is so similar to their other vehicles already on offer, it will be diluting their own sales, it's already all but destroyed discovery (but then we all know that new defender should have been released as the 2020 Discovery in the first place) - first loose for JLR.

If it was the Discovery, that would have meant JLR could have kept true to the old defender with the update (like Merc did with the G-wagon) consolidating the LandRover brand as a serious 4x4, which would have supported their other vehicles on offer (not competed with them) and appealed to a wider demographic, increasing market share - second loose for JLR.

I think the new defender has done more to confuse LandRover branding, than enhanced it - (talk about muddying the oval

) - Ultimately it's been an own goal loose loose for JLR, when it could so easily have been a huge win win.

Under-estimating the value of what a solid 'mast-head' vehicle brings to the brand, is a mistake a number of manufacturers seem have made, like what LandCruiser, Partol, Pajero, Defender … used to be, but G-Wagon still is (maybe a bit harsh on Toyota, but I'm not a fan of the new 300 Cruiser).

They are recognisable vehicles that largely define the brand, nonsense, purposeful, rugged, reliable, dependable, desirable, and not ordinary, demonstrating the manufacturers commitment to producing quality and reliability, and in turn feeding down to give consumers confidence in other products.

Mercedes and Toyota (despite the softer 300) are probably the only brands that have maintained some credibility here, and they will continue to reap the rewards, ok, I’ll chuck Jeep in there too (only because Jeep hasn't stuffed around with Wrangler)

klarie · Sep 27, 2023

tnkatoy said:
There are defiantly buyers for LandRover / Range Rover products (the two brands are almost synonymous with their vehicles now) what I don't get is that the new defender is so similar to their other vehicles already on offer, it will be diluting their own sales, it's already all but destroyed discovery (but then we all know that it should have been released as the 2020 Discovery in the first place) - first loose for JLR.

If it was the Discovery, that would have meant JLR could have kept true to the old defender with the update (like Merc did with the G-wagon) consolidating the LandRover brand as a serious 4x4, which would have supported their other vehicles on offer (not competed with them) and appealed to a wider demographic, increasing market share - second loose for JLR.

I think the new defender has done more to confuse LandRover branding, than enhanced it - (talk about muddying the oval ) - Ultimately it's been an own goal loose loose for JLR, when it could so easily have been a huge win win.

Under-estimating the value of what a solid 'mast-head' vehicle brings to the brand, is a mistake a number of manufacturers seem have made, like what LandCruiser, Partol, Pajero, Defender … used to be, but G-Wagon still is (maybe a bit harsh on Toyota, but I'm not a fan of the new 300 Cruiser).

They are recognisable vehicles that largely define the brand, nonsense, purposeful, rugged, reliable, dependable, desirable, and not ordinary, demonstrating the manufacturers commitment to producing quality and reliability, and in turn feeding down to give consumers confidence in other products.

Mercedes and Toyota (despite the softer 300) are probably the only brands that have maintained some credibility here, and they will continue to reap the rewards, ok, I’ll chuck Jeep in there too (only because Jeep hasn't stuffed around with Wrangler)

Yep - xactly - could not explain it better. - And indeed - the category you mentioned are NOT SUV - including the Wrangler and all of it have more or less the problems in urban areas and the advantages in rural. So if somebody wants such a vehicle e.g. Grenadier and use it as a SUV.. need to deal with some topics. If the user does not want to deal with these - fingers away.

AWo · Oct 9, 2023

German official statistics of new car registrations from the KBA year-to-month-end September
JLR New Defender: 3342 (+307 in September)
JLR Discovery: 436 (+60 in September)
JLR Range Rover: 1013 (+144 in September)
JLR Land Rover all-in-all: 10610 (6117 in UK, Total 39575)
Ineos: 611 (+120 in August) (155 in UK, Total 738)

AWo

klarie · Oct 9, 2023

AWo said:
German official statistics of new car registrations from the KBA year-to-month-end September
JLR New Defender: 3342 (+307 in September)
JLR Discovery: 436 (+60 in September)
JLR Range Rover: 1013 (+144 in September)
JLR Land Rover all-in-all: 10610
Ineos: 611 (+120 in August)

AWo

Perhaps Ineos gets a 4 digit number by end of year. But counting my VIN just half the amount produced entirely compared to JLR has sold already this year just in Germany. But I don’t care on numbers .. but now I want mine not just collecting dust at K&E

AWo · Oct 9, 2023

An interesting number would be the sales rate in these month, as the numbers we see most probably are registrations of cars sold month ago.

AWo

Ever Pragmatic · Oct 9, 2023

In the uk, year to date, 1339 have been registered of which 601 were the commercial version.. the commercial run rate looks like 150 a month. About .06% of market share so owners are in a pretty exclusive club.. data from smmt.

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