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Land Rover feeling the Heat?

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Here is my pitch, just make an electric F-Type, but with a real manual transmission and foot pedal clutch. Ignore all things about efficiency and 0-60 sprint, and just make it a driver's GT that no one else has.

But they will just make another boring EV with the same specs (if not worse) than everyone else.
Kinda weird idea.... The advantage of electric drive is that you get rid of all the comples mechanics, get torque from the get-go and have a wide power band. The only reason for a gearbox is to have a decent spread of power and torque over the whole speed range with an IC engine and is redundent if you have electric drive........
 
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I didn’t know that, but does explain quite a few things.

It certainly is nothing more than a school run special and an expensive commuter vehicle.
I totally agree - the folks that buy Velar probably would have bought the RR Sport if they could. It's got everything the Velar has, plus more of everything the Velar offers. I think the Velar & Evoke are "compromise" car choices, which kinda makes them not really a luxury purchase (IMO). A luxury purchase (again IMO) is an actual RR or the Sport variant - those are luxuries. Those two make a statement of intentional purchases. The Velar and Evoke owners likely spend lots of time trying to make up reasons they passed on buying the better RRs that were available... As for Discovery sales being low, it's not an attractive looking SUV. If you can buy a full sized Discovery loaded with options, why not buy a ND? They are both expensive to buy, so if you're in the dealer showroom looking at Discovery with features, you can probably buy the ND, and I think it offers more interior room + all the off-road technology. LR used to limit their production to 4 basic models (RR/RR Sport/LR4/LR2) and that was it; maybe they were on to something? The problem JLR is going to have with Grenadier sales over time is not just the lost customers (that may have bought a ND). That's a small problem (IMO) to the marketing fiasco they are cooking for themselves. JLR is understandably cashing in on OD capability as it's historically portrayed in pictures, stories, and videos. But if enough folks buy Grenadiers and subsequently go and do crazy travelling & post stories of their expeditions, the OD image will no longer have the strong cache as a discovery oriented adventure SUV that's out there in the real world and doing it now. OD was amzing not only because of where you could go with it, but you could stand on it as well - it was a solid SUV. The Grenadier is also a very solid SUV, and it's going to be put to the test, for sure. It's simple to say, but in the JLR world of pastic bumpers and thin panel aluminum hoods & door panels, there's alot of OD practicality that is totally lost with ND. JLR refuses to go "all in" with a ND trim exclusively built for off road adventuring, and in the process of ignoring the marekt, JLR may lose the marketing gold of OD cache. To get in the market, ND is close: bigger wheel arches, 18" rims, solid roof for loading, strong bumpers, and stronger panelling (so you can lean on ND without worry). OD was like furniture, whereas ND is like a porcelan mug - as soon as you drive a soft and shiny SUV into the woods, it loses some practicality & versatility for folks that may have been OK if it gets banged up a bit.
 

AWo

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German official statistics of new car registrations from the KBA year-to-month-end November
JLR New Defender: 4099 (+369 in September)
JLR Discovery: 539 (+52 in September)
JLR Range Rover: 1266 (+110 in September)
JLR Land Rover all-in-all: 12924
Ineos: 872 (+138 in August)
For the first time a second modell appeared at Ineos called "others", maybe a Quartermaster: 1 (+1 in November)

AWo
 

Tinerfeño

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JLR Discovery: 539 (+52 in September)
JLR Range Rover: 1266 (+110 in September)
I'm pretty sure >50% of Discoveries are Discovery Sports (min. ~270) and same >50% Range Rover are Range Rover Evoques (min. ~630) which can't be compared to IG. JLR total includes Jaguars.
But number of New Defenders is high!
 

AWo

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I'm pretty sure >50% of Discoveries are Discovery Sports (min. ~270) and same >50% Range Rover are Range Rover Evoques (min. ~630) which can't be compared to IG. JLR total includes Jaguars.
But number of New Defenders is high!
No, the Discovery Sport has its own row in the statistic, exactly as teh Range Sport and Velar and Evoque. I didn't mention them here.

Exclusively for you (others are not allowed to read this):
JLR Discovery Sport: 1272 (+83)

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Voader - Oudersopzwier

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I found this data for belgium. but limited. (Source Autotijd) But only for the make, not separated in models.

Inschrijvingen Ineos in België per maand​

Month units Marketshare
Augustus 2023 2 0,01 %
Juli 2023 2 0,01 %
Juni 2023 3 0,01 %
Mei 2023 7 0,02 %
April 2023 4 0,01 %
Maart 2023 1 0,00 %

Inschrijvingen Land Rover in België per maand​

Augustus 2023 588 1,60 %
Juli 2023 499 1,44 %
Juni 2023 524 1,01 %
Mei 2023 453 1,10 %
April 2023 563 1,41 %
Maart 2023 647 1,25 %
Februari 2023 548 1,37 %
Januari 2023 531 1,33 %
 

Norb-TX

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Screenshot 2023-12-07 at 11.30.07 AM.png
 

AWo

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German official statistics of new car registrations from the KBA year-to-month-end December 2023
JLR New Defender: 4441 (+343 in December)
JLR Discovery: 570 (+31 in December)
JLR Range Rover: 1340 (+184 in December)
A second Range Rover appeared (maybe a typo):
JLR Range Rover: 2617 (+110 in December
JLR Land Rover all-in-all: 13779

Ineos: 966 (+93 in December)
For the second time a second modell appeared at Ineos called "others", maybe a Quartermaster: 1 (+0 in December)

AWo
 
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Rab

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2nd Range Rover is probably a Range Rover Sport
 

Ever Pragmatic

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Ineos managed to register 1719 Grens in 2023. Pretty much 50/50 split between the commercial and non commercial.. With the early adopters cleaned out, it’ll be interesting to see if they get to the original target of c 5500 a year in the UK..
 

AWo

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After having a chat with the German KBA which holds the official numbers we can add 254 IG N1 type to the 966 of the M1 car type.

That sums up to a total registered number of Ineos Grenadier in Germany of 1220 units and 1 Quartermaster for 2023. The detailed list will be released on 20. June 2024. For the Grenadier this makes no difference as there is one model only.

To whom it may concern: you have to look after the FZ 8.13 sheet.

AWo
 

AWo

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The question which arises in my head is: After the earyly adopters are satisfied the car hits the normal customer. I assume that will be around end of April, maybe June (as all desired markets are active then). It is a niche market with many fans of this kind of car or of a brand or both. The first year should have seen 30000 IG on the streets. If the registrations numbers globally are like the ones in Germany and the UK, this number must have beeen missed clearly. Ineos itself had once a forecast for 2024 of twice the number of 2023. Is that still feasible, after all brand fans, 4x4 freaks and early adopters already own a car?

In the automotive industrie you must backup your planned production numbers by contracts with the suppliers to ensure that you can build the cars. How many units willl Ineos back up by purchase contracts for 2024 or 2025? How many units do they need to get profitable. I see the prises rising without adding (noteworthy, if any) value. It is well known, that customers (except brand fans, 4x4 freaks and early adopters) tend to buy things only for the same price (again) or an increased price if value was added. Which value was added to the IG since the prices wwere rised?

A long story short, is there a real chance to generate profit with an IG around 100000 € after the brand fans, 4x4 freaks and early adopter are happy with their IG?

To be honest, I have my doubts....

AWo
 

Mountain4x4

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For one, Ineos does not need the money, so low margins may be ok. But they are also not stupid, and in some aspects have kept development costs low. Frankly if 1.1B to get started is true, that is VERY cheap. Sounds like something Elon Musk would pull off. My order was over 39K, that puts sales over 3.15B. With a 14% luxury brand margin, they have about 315M to deal with the early launch warranty fixes so far. So they are surely losing money the first year, but I am not sure it is terrible. If this was a 50K vehicle, that would be another story. The rest of the story is up to them. Provide service, stay true to the design and purpose, upgrade, improve and buyers will keep coming on board. Make sure the US off-road crowd wants to take them on major trails like the Rubicon as they age, and more fanatic's will join the club. Raptors were not supposed to sell, Rubicons were considered so stupid and unsellable by Jeep that EMPLOYEES paid for development costs and now its a cash cow, Broncos with a Sasquatch package were for a few elite, but thats all that gets ordered......
 

AWo

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For one, Ineos does not need the money, so low margins may be ok. But they are also not stupid, and in some aspects have kept development costs low. Frankly if 1.1B to get started is true, that is VERY cheap. Sounds like something Elon Musk would pull off. My order was over 39K, that puts sales over 3.15B. With a 14% luxury brand margin, they have about 315M to deal with the early launch warranty fixes so far. So they are surely losing money the first year, but I am not sure it is terrible. If this was a 50K vehicle, that would be another story. The rest of the story is up to them. Provide service, stay true to the design and purpose, upgrade, improve and buyers will keep coming on board. Make sure the US off-road crowd wants to take them on major trails like the Rubicon as they age, and more fanatic's will join the club. Raptors were not supposed to sell, Rubicons were considered so stupid and unsellable by Jeep that EMPLOYEES paid for development costs and now its a cash cow, Broncos with a Sasquatch package were for a few elite, but thats all that gets ordered......

If Ineos don't need the margin, why has the price raised to around 90,000, 100,000 Euros when in the end of 2021 the price approached was around 54,000 to 57,000 Euros? While two Grenadier protoypes sat my workshop in 12/2021 the price jumped to over 64,000 Euros. And I was personally told by the Ineos Global Aftermarket Manager in 2020, that the desired price will be somewhat higher that a Toyota Hilux while it was planned to repair cars even at your home (Something I do not get together in my head, that price and that level of service).
Why do you think margin is not important for Ineos? Do you think it is just fun and JR pumps money into Ineos Automotive every month with a big smile? Ever thought about why it was pushed into the market so early with all these flaws and the necessity to repair the car at the dealer sites (what generated even more costs)? Because Ineos Automotive had to start writing bills and not only paying them. In addition, check how Ineos chemical business is struggling in Europe since one year....
Where do you know from that the development costs where kept low? Is a low develpment cost something which justifies a luxuary price tag (when margin is not an issue for Ineos?) and thereby kicking out potential customers right from the start (like communites which need to call for bids and and commercial users which are very price sensitive if the car is not used for presentation but for real work). Most parts of the Grenadier are new. New parts require new tools. Tools are very expensive. For Ineos and every supplier. Take the headlights or the rear lights for example. There were standard light available from different suppliers all over the world. But Ineos decided to ask for a new development. That is abolutely ok and fine. It is even desireable, but it is not keeping the development costs low. The same applies for the frame, the body, the transfer box, the axles, the dashboard, the software and even small stuff, like the steering wheel etc.
And think about the many iterations until the design was ready....every iteration meant a step back, starting again...that is not for free...

Why has Ineos taken the burden (and costs) of providing the winch, the double battery system and all that, while the aftermarket is full of experts, doing exactly these upgrades since decades. Going this way means Ineos had to find the right suppliers, integrate it into the car, write handbooks, educate technicians, buy the parts, homologate the parts (with the car), keep the parts on stock, integrate that into the production, repair the parts, give warranty for these parts (and warranty always requires you to build up provisions on the financial side=decreases the margin). But the worst is, they have to take the customer beats when it doesn't work well and harm their reputation....for what? Why? It could have been easier and cheaper.

I call that the oppositie of keeping develeopment costs low.

"Ineos does not need the money" is absolutely a fairy tale. At Ineos all, absolutely all is about money, when it has become a business unit and not a private pleasure. Of course, it is a project of heart for JR, but he didn't get as rich as he is by throwing his money into projects which doesn't multiply it. Or should I say where the intention was to multiply it....it hasn't worked out always....just check the Ineos news portal and you will find some of these projects....

AWo
 
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AWo

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German official statistics of new car registrations from the KBA year-to-month-end January 2024
JLR New Defender: 406 (+406 in January)
JLR Discovery: 31 (+31 in January)
JLR Range Rover: 117 (+117 in December)
JLR Land Rover all-in-all: 1038

Ineos: 75 (+75 January)

AWo
 
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IGL

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That's not many registrations.
The managing director of the dealership I spoke to yesterday told me that incoming orders have fallen sharply since the last price increase. The Quartermaster hasn't done much to change that.
He also couldn't understand why there had already been two price increases before the vehicle and the new brand had established themselves on the market.
 
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