Land Rover feeling the Heat?

[bigleonski]

Did some shopping with spouse today. Noticed 2 ND and a G500 perhaps registered last month.. all on large rims, low tyres for on road use. All life style luxury vehicles. I think the ND will indeed establish itself close to G but cheaper. Currently G wagon are difficult to get despite high price. Mercedes GLS is rather a cruiser and close to RR customers.
So I do not think ND and Grenadier compete the same market. BTW there was also one black long classic Defender. very well maintained.. Roof rack and lots of stickers.. Iceland, Scandinavia, That one has seen a bit...

See I disagree- all of those extremely capable offroad vehicles are in the same market.
The difference is they offer similar off-road capabilities (before the bling attack by owners) with much more refined SUV characteristics but suffer for what grenandier purchasers are looking for because of that.
If I was in the car manufacturing business I would produce those other vehicles and sell more and make a lot more money as a result.
I’m just glad Sir Jim went the way he did.

 

[DDG]

I have had the pleasure of owning 3 Range Rover Sports and now own a New Defender. My ownership experiences and customer service have been exceptional. The New Defender is the best vehicle I have ever owned. I will surely miss the incredible smooth performance on road and off road and all the extra storage up front. Like most, I have used it mostly on-road, however I have had it off-road multiple times and have to say, it was incredible off road. I believe it must be the number one 50/50% off-road / on-road vehicle in the world. I also believe the the Grenadier will be the number one 65/35% off-road / on-road vehicle in the world. Perhaps I am biased towards both these vehicles, however I think not. I have owned the New Defender for 3 years now and have also test drove the Grenadier off road. DaBull

Very much have had the same experience with four LR products. LR4. RR Sport, RR autobiography, and now a Defender. Never once stranded and other than frequent brake pad changes; reliability has been flawless. I see the same comments all over the place and the JD Power initial quality surveys always list them at the bottom. I’m excited to get my grenadier and believe it Is the true spiritual successor. I will compare the ND directly with the grenadier and with my G wagon. After fifteen years of owning Land Rover products I have no complaints.

 

[DaveB]

See I disagree- all of those extremely capable offroad vehicles are in the same market.
The difference is they offer similar off-road capabilities (before the bling attack by owners) with much more refined SUV characteristics but suffer for what grenandier purchasers are looking for because of that.
If I was in the car manufacturing business I would produce those other vehicles and sell more and make a lot more money as a result.
I’m just glad Sir Jim went the way he did.

He is smart enough to know not to take on all those other manufacturers directly.
A small profitable operation, build the business and I guarantee he will sell it within 5-10 years.

 

[klarie]

See I disagree- all of those extremely capable offroad vehicles are in the same market.
The difference is they offer similar off-road capabilities (before the bling attack by owners) with much more refined SUV characteristics but suffer for what grenandier purchasers are looking for because of that.
If I was in the car manufacturing business I would produce those other vehicles and sell more and make a lot more money as a result.
I’m just glad Sir Jim went the way he did.

Respect for your opinion. Yes I think all vehicle are quite capable. - Perhaps not all lasting and durable. The difference is the consumer region they addressing and what is being purchased. When I put my Disco sport on AT tyres instead of wide road tyres - I got opinions like are you crazy - taking a vehicle with leather seats and lot off bling bling for use in the forest, - the paint could get chips, scratches dents..
Indeed the vehicle got scratches but that were while parked and a tiny dent from another cars door. While it was my company car. But til today none in off road. - Looking at the luxury - and pricing - both G and ND are still more expensive than Grenadier (German pricing) even after recent rise. - In particular the G - starts from somewhat 140k and well into 200kE .. - so the market addressed and the people that can afford it is different. - I know only one single person taking his civilian black G offroad - a hunting friend - and that is already 20 years on the road. Another friend of mine owns a Brabus V8 Compressor G - side pipes.. he owns a hotel in Germany in the Rhön touristic area famous for hiking and in particular glider planes.. He has a whole collection including a Hummer 2, Maserati and others. But he said no - not taking offroad, that is is an invest.- The G I could sell at a higher price as I bought it. - So considering inflation - why shall I risk it.. driving it occasionally is fine but not risking it. For soft offroading he uses the Hummer - has a roof tent - but also only gravel and very light off road. That is what I expect at least in Europe for most of G and ND. From an owner / market view. All the G's that are really and practically used off road - were former military G - from Austria, Switzerland and the "Wolf"
There is one in Germany "Phillip aus dem Hanfbachtal" - selling used Military or Firebrigade vehicles and equipment. Including old US - Mil Vehicles - if you get a G unter 10kEur - you re lucky.- Occasionally I look at his site - Anything that looks like a G is almost immediately sold. So maybe they address a similar market but the intent of use by buyers is very different. At least on JLR RR, ND and MB G, GLS, we can assume the users are very wealthy and the probability to use it very offroad is rather unlikely.
A Grenadier - and in particular the N1 versions are likely to be used Off Road.

 

[rovie]

Very much have had the same experience with four LR products. LR4. RR Sport, RR autobiography, and now a Defender. Never once stranded and other than frequent brake pad changes; reliability has been flawless. I see the same comments all over the place and the JD Power initial quality surveys always list them at the bottom. I’m excited to get my grenadier and believe it Is the true spiritual successor. I will compare the ND directly with the grenadier and with my G wagon. After fifteen years of owning Land Rover products I have no complaints.

Hi @DDG I fully agree with your statements. I have been driving Land/Range Rovers exclusively for over 25 years. Now the Grenadier has been added. I have not had any major problems with any of the vehicles, apart from the little Land Rover specific things. But I know the weak points and I can adapt to them. Either I accept them or I buy something else. Whether it's better or not is an open question.
To be fair, I have to admit that I would certainly apply different standards to a new Range Rover. But I can't compare it to the Grenadier either. It still has excellent off-road ability. The other SUVs can't keep up with it.
I had a look at it last week and I think it's a very good car.

 

[klarie]

He is smart enough to know not to take on all those other manufacturers directly.
A small profitable operation, build the business and I guarantee he will sell it within 5-10 years.

Indeed - if the vehicle has itself established in a niche - it could very well be - one of the established automakers will jump in, - as the Grenadier is somewhat a Mercedes G V2.0 (The G was a couple of times intended to be ceased only high selling rates and high profitability and the military use - they keep manufacturing it) - But BMW as they are already providing the engine - and they have a "gap" there.
The X vehicles are rather luxury SUV and share / compete the market with MB GLA, GLC, GLE .. but there is nothing to compete the G.
If Grenadier is profitable and has established itself - then BMW could be interested in.

 

[DaveB]

Indeed - if the vehicle has itself established in a niche - it could very well be - one of the established automakers will jump in, - as the Grenadier is somewhat a Mercedes G V2.0 (The G was a couple of times intended to be ceased only high selling rates and high profitability and the military use - they keep manufacturing it) - But BMW as they are already providing the engine - and they have a "gap" there.
The X vehicles are rather luxury SUV and share / compete the market with MB GLA, GLC, GLE .. but there is nothing to compete the G.
If Grenadier is profitable and has established itself - then BMW could be interested in.

That was my thought, or JLR could brand it as the Puma Defender?
I think the BMW engine is a more logical pointer.

 

[Disco Dave]

That was my thought, or JLR could brand it as the Puma Defender?
I think the BMW engine is a more logical pointer.

I have mentioned this before in this forum, but am going to say it again. I was on a popular off road track in Northern Australia, pulled over at a scenic spot. A couple of guys, in a LC and Patrol, asked me how my D2 went and would I buy another LR. I said my D2 is a mountain goat and I will not buy another LR, becaue poor articulation, low profile tyres and excessive electronics. Then I remarked, have you heard about the Ineos Grenadier? They hadn’t. I initially was interested in the ND, thinking it would be a robust off reader, until I saw what it was. Not long after I learned about the IG - oh yeah that’s the one for me.

 

[curb-optional]

I think the thing you are missing is that the ND exactly meets the market Land Rover is targeting, evidenced by the fact that it’s their biggest selling model and they are selling more than they can make. They don’t really care about the hard core off road market, despite the fact that people are actually buying and using it that way, including replacing the brakes and adding 18” wheels etc. I don’t think there is anything LR regrets about ND and they don’t see the IG as a significant threat.

I agree with you that JLR is not really trying to produce off road ready SUVs any more. My gripe has a bit of longing (as in "why don't they just make a trim you can take off road for a week or two?") But I see it all around me: RRs and ND running about Whole Foods parking lots. I am sorry to see ND become just another RR trim. I'm sure if JLR wanted, they certainly could make it off road ready from the factory. It's that they don't that gets them all the tomatoes. I have known a few LR4 owners and they did outdoorsy stuff (bikes, beaches, etc.) The ND types don't even do that: it's malls, highways, and fancy restaurants.

 

[curb-optional]

Very much have had the same experience with four LR products. LR4. RR Sport, RR autobiography, and now a Defender. Never once stranded and other than frequent brake pad changes; reliability has been flawless. I see the same comments all over the place and the JD Power initial quality surveys always list them at the bottom. I’m excited to get my grenadier and believe it Is the true spiritual successor. I will compare the ND directly with the grenadier and with my G wagon. After fifteen years of owning Land Rover products I have no complaints.

I too have a LR and for the most part, it's not left me stranded. It pops tires alot and because I have 18" rims, I probably could do with some kevlar tires or something. The electronic problems have been modest, and the biggest expense was a turbo that needed to be replaced. Overall, I am happy with how it's held up. My prior car was a Forrester and that was breaking down slowly over time. I tend to hit potholes at speed, and you do that a few times, and the Forrester absolutely cares. The LR, bless it, has not complained much.

 

[Shaky]

Thought of this thread immediately whilst watching the latest powerful UK YouTube video.

They have been offered a good deal on a defender 90 they own against the canvas roof 75th edition defender that is brand new.

Apparently the 75th editions are not selling very well.

They paid £68k for theirs which is only a few months old and has 600 mile on it.

They have been offered £64k for it against the 75th which would be £76k.

He said that was a deal and he is right. That car is listed for £88k on JLR website right now. So a £12k discount is some come down to the RRP.

Clearly they are feeling the heat, or lack of it around the green machine !!

 

[AWo]

UK new car registrations in 2023 year-to.-date (Source: SMMT UK):

July:

German official statistics of new car registrations from the KBA year-to-month-end July
JLR New Defender: 2690
JLR Discovery: 314 (maybe because it is soooooooooooo ugly)
JLR Range Rover: 720
JLR Land Rover all-in-all: 8272
Ineos: 385

I don't think JLR feels Ineos.... JLR sold more Land Rover cars until now only in the UK than Ineos wants to sell in one year globally.

AWo

 

[Magical Mystery Tours]

As such, I purchased the New Defender because of the iconic Old Defender heritage. I always loved the look.

But that's the trick: take a Discovery, change the body a bit to make it look similar, and call it a Defender. Then someone comes along and builds the Grenadier and JLR complains like an insulted goose that the thing is even more similar to the Defender.

@curb-optional speaks from my heart​

 

[DCPU]

I don't think JLR feels Ineos....

It's not the size of the stone in your shoe but the fact it's in there.

 

[AWo]

It's not the size of the stone in your shoe but the fact it's in there.

I think it is more a monetary thing....not a philosophic one....in Germany we say "It doesn't bother the oak when the wild boar is scratching it".

So there are many sayings around to express this or that...I guess the oak can live with the wild boar very well and JLR can walk with a small stone still a long way...what matters is, if JLR will walk through the goal in the end, even with a stone in their shoe and if will Ineos reach it at all.

Only time will show...

AWo

 

[Cheshire cat]

I think it is more a monetary thing....not a philosophic one....in Germany we say "It doesn't bother the oak when the wild boar is scratching it".

So there are many sayings around to express this or that...I guess the oak can live with the wild boar very well and JLR can walk with a small stone still a long way...what matters is, if JLR will walk through the goal in the end, even with a stone in their shoe and if will Ineos reach it at all.

Only time will show...

AWo

That sounds very philosophical to me.

 

[AWo]

That sounds very philosophical to me.

It is...I try to speak with the same tongue...

AWo

 

[stratego]

Indeed - if the vehicle has itself established in a niche - it could very well be - one of the established automakers will jump in, - as the Grenadier is somewhat a Mercedes G V2.0 (The G was a couple of times intended to be ceased only high selling rates and high profitability and the military use - they keep manufacturing it) - But BMW as they are already providing the engine - and they have a "gap" there.
The X vehicles are rather luxury SUV and share / compete the market with MB GLA, GLC, GLE .. but there is nothing to compete the G.
If Grenadier is profitable and has established itself - then BMW could be interested in.

I work in strategy/corp dev at an automaker and work on decisions like this all the time. If I were at BMW, I would absolutely be pushing to have first dibs on the Ineos Grenadier brand and assets for when Sir Jim loses interest/is hard up for money.

Having a body on frame SUV/truck would be a great sub-brand/portfolio move for increasing BMW profits+userbase in North America long term. There's lots of technology and manufacturing synergies for BMW as well.

 

[AWo]

German official statistics of new car registrations from the KBA year-to-month-end August
JLR New Defender: 3035 (+345 in August)
JLR Discovery: 375 (+61 in August)
JLR Range Rover: 869 (+149 in August)
JLR Land Rover all-in-all: 9475
Ineos: 491 (+106 in August)

It is normal for the summer months that the registrations are lower. It will become more interesting in September and October.

AWo

 

[Norb-TX]

LR looks like it's catching up to demand. Houston dealers actually have in stock inventory of the ND.