Winch problem

[chrsbe]

My Winch regularly stops working. After switching off and on again both overhead 500amp switch and remote it works again. Had this several times with and without load. So it is not overheating i assume. Did you experience similar problems? Maybe a problem with the remote? Btw. where is the fuse for the winch.
Thx. C

 

[BenTN]

You could winch right out of there no problem if you didn't have that tiny man standing on top of your car.

 

[ADVAW8S]

John Canny mentioned his winch cut out on him when he was on a trip. It stopped working. Two occurrences does not create a trend but lets see if others start having issues.

 

[Rok_Dr]

My Winch regularly stops working. After switching off and on again both overhead 500amp switch and remote it works again. Had this several times with and without load. So it is not overheating i assume. Did you experience similar problems? Maybe a problem with the remote? Btw. where is the fuse for the winch.
Thx. C

View attachment 7845135

As far as I can determine the only “fuse” for the front winch is a 150 amp auto reset circuit breaker located in the engine bay next to the positive jumpstart post.
cheers
Steve

 

[Max]

John Canny mentioned his winch cut out on him when he was on a trip. It stopped working. Two occurrences does not create a trend but lets see if others start having issues.

Correct and he mentioned Power steering failure and one other thing. they were all tied in together electrically/electronically, I believe.

Five Reasons I am unhappy with Ineos. Why was ... - YouTube​

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsKHs2g-Xiw
Power steering, winch and diff locks

 

[Max]

My Winch regularly stops working. After switching off and on again both overhead 500amp switch and remote it works again. Had this several times with and without load. So it is not overheating i assume. Did you experience similar problems? Maybe a problem with the remote? Btw. where is the fuse for the winch.
Thx. C

View attachment 7845135

A fantastic photo with the little Clergyman up there on the roof giving the last rites. It would be a worthy contender for the Photo Contest...brilliant...titled 'The Last Rites'

 

[samnt650]

I have similar problem (winch power cut) while pulling. I had to flip the main switch to "reset" Dealer claimed they could not reproduce the issue (not like they would put the winch under load and test it...) I get apx 30 to 60 sec winch run time before each cut off...

 

[Michael H.]

I have similar problem (winch power cut) while pulling. I had to flip the main switch to "reset" Dealer claimed they could not reproduce the issue (not like they would put the winch under load and test it...) I get apx 30 to 60 sec winch run time before each cut off...

I use a conservative duty cycle (15 seconds on, 30 seconds off) which is less likely to cause the 150A circuit breaker in the engine compartment (which works on amp draw over time) to trip.

 

[Zimm]

I use a conservative duty cycle (15 seconds on, 30 seconds off) which is less likely to cause the 150A circuit breaker in the engine compartment (which works on amp draw over time) to trip.

simple circuit breakers function with a bi metalic strip that bends under heat, and "trips" the breaker. That strip will bend to the trip point at a nominal amount of amperage. There are time delays from instantaneous to long, but that's only long enough to establish the motor in indeed locked and not just delayed because its starting under load or something. In a properly designed system there is no heat buildup that will trip the breaker outside of its amp parameters that you can avoid by cycling like you do.



SO, if you're running your winch, and its tripping the breaker

1) The winch has issues. It's overheating and causing a spike in amp draw and breaker is protecting it.
2) The wiring is undersized, causing voltage drop, amp increase, heat increase, more amp increase, and so on until the breaker trips.. if youre lucky. That scenario just as often ends in brittle and failing insulation.
3) There's a bad connection causing results like the above.
4) What is likely if there are unexplained nuisance trips unrelated to amp draw, is the breaker being faulty. Replace it. There's a bi metal strip, a spring, a cam, plastic pivot points etc etc etc of some kind in there. Unless they are designed to be switch rated maybe as art of a relay system, they do wear out and they are not precision built instruments. Simply put, you can test 10000 simple breakers and none will trip exactly the same. There will be some far to sensitive, and others dangerously slow.

And another thing, since the tripping is a function of amp draw and not time, constantly stopping and staring the motor is hitting the breaker (and motor) with momentary inrush currents greater than the rating, and is more likely to trip it not less. Stopping and starting a motor is function of keeping it within its duty cycle, and has nothing to do with protecting an over current devise. The same goes for magnetic or electronic breakers which I doubt are in a car.

These issues sound to me like a faulty relay, or one that isn't getting the signal to close, or mistakenly gets a signal to open. Without a wiring diagram who know what spooky way they chose to control the power.

 

[Michael H.]

simple circuit breakers function with a bi metalic strip that bends under heat, and "trips" the breaker. That strip will bend to the trip point at a nominal amount of amperage. There are time delays from instantaneous to long, but that's only long enough to establish the motor in indeed locked and not just delayed because its starting under load or something. In a properly designed system there is no heat buildup that will trip the breaker outside of its amp parameters that you can avoid by cycling like you do.



SO, if you're running your winch, and its tripping the breaker

1) The winch has issues. It's overheating and causing a spike in amp draw and breaker is protecting it.
2) The wiring is undersized, causing voltage drop, amp increase, heat increase, more amp increase, and so on until the breaker trips.. if youre lucky. That scenario just as often ends in brittle and failing insulation.
3) There's a bad connection causing results like the above.
4) What is likely if there are unexplained nuisance trips unrelated to amp draw, is the breaker being faulty. Replace it. There's a bi metal strip, a spring, a cam, plastic pivot points etc etc etc of some kind in there. Unless they are designed to be switch rated maybe as art of a relay system, they do wear out and they are not precision built instruments. Simply put, you can test 10000 simple breakers and none will trip exactly the same. There will be some far to sensitive, and others dangerously slow.

And another thing, since the tripping is a function of amp draw and not time, constantly stopping and staring the motor is hitting the breaker (and motor) with momentary inrush currents greater than the rating, and is more likely to trip it not less. Stopping and starting a motor is function of keeping it within its duty cycle, and has nothing to do with protecting an over current devise. The same goes for magnetic or electronic breakers which I doubt are in a car.

These issues sound to me like a faulty relay, or one that isn't getting the signal to close, or mistakenly gets a signal to open. Without a wiring diagram who know what spooky way they chose to control the power.

My decision to use a conservative winching cycle is based on best practice for avoiding deterioration of the synthetic rope due to heat build up, as well as mechanical sympathy for the winch and batteries.

From the User Manual for the INEOS integrated front winch from Red Winches …



From the Winch Handling Course by Getabout Training Services, INEOS Australia's national training partner (which was not limited to the RWG-01, but covered winching in general) …

 

[TD5-90]

simple circuit breakers function with a bi metalic strip that bends under heat, and "trips" the breaker. That strip will bend to the trip point at a nominal amount of amperage. There are time delays from instantaneous to long, but that's only long enough to establish the motor in indeed locked and not just delayed because its starting under load or something. In a properly designed system there is no heat buildup that will trip the breaker outside of its amp parameters that you can avoid by cycling like you do.



SO, if you're running your winch, and its tripping the breaker

1) The winch has issues. It's overheating and causing a spike in amp draw and breaker is protecting it.
2) The wiring is undersized, causing voltage drop, amp increase, heat increase, more amp increase, and so on until the breaker trips.. if youre lucky. That scenario just as often ends in brittle and failing insulation.
3) There's a bad connection causing results like the above.
4) What is likely if there are unexplained nuisance trips unrelated to amp draw, is the breaker being faulty. Replace it. There's a bi metal strip, a spring, a cam, plastic pivot points etc etc etc of some kind in there. Unless they are designed to be switch rated maybe as art of a relay system, they do wear out and they are not precision built instruments. Simply put, you can test 10000 simple breakers and none will trip exactly the same. There will be some far to sensitive, and others dangerously slow.

And another thing, since the tripping is a function of amp draw and not time, constantly stopping and staring the motor is hitting the breaker (and motor) with momentary inrush currents greater than the rating, and is more likely to trip it not less. Stopping and starting a motor is function of keeping it within its duty cycle, and has nothing to do with protecting an over current devise. The same goes for magnetic or electronic breakers which I doubt are in a car.

These issues sound to me like a faulty relay, or one that isn't getting the signal to close, or mistakenly gets a signal to open. Without a wiring diagram who know what spooky way they chose to control the power.

I recommend reading this .

 

[Zimm]

That's an overload relay, not a breaker. There is no "trip" position. Where is that located? If redwich is concerned about the duty cycle of the winch, I would think they should incorporate that into the winch.

Is there an actual breaker or fuse in front of that? I hope so, if not that's an issue.

Did you ever notice when the power goes out, your lights flicker 2-3 times and that's it? The reason being is its assumed the substation provides for critical loads, and as long as the fault "clears" we want it back on so the system attempts to close 2-3 times. It is not continuous. "Clear" may still be 26k line live on the ground somewhere, but it's not going to damage the station.

In turn, did you ever notice your home breakers are never designed to do that? That's because they what you manually reset it. You're supposed to find out why it tripped. The most common danger is a high impedance short. What happens is the device fails by grounding out and arcing, but during the fault material is lost. Upon reset without inspection, the poor condition of the contact provides enough impedance to keep the amp draw below the trip but the arc remains. Its drawing say 100a of the 150a breaker. The heat of the arc continues and if there are combustibles in the proximity, well, maybe they ignite. In other words, you do not want an overload relay that reconnects because it doesn't contain an actual trip device, as your only form of protection. An overload relay is not a breaker.

Boy, an actual wiring diagram with proper symbols for the devices as promised would sure be nice.

 

[Zimm]

Not to mention, I don't want my winch to per-maturely cut out. Worn winch motors are cheap and easy to replace vs any horrific alternative involving the truck. The thermal overload relay will be removed when I sort out the winch setup.