Americas USA Buying Process--Beware (dealer vehicle pricing and business practices)

[Mr.Espresso]

I think for Pre-Order holders, IG mentioned there will not be any markup. Most Likely !!!

I’m confident there won’t be any markups for pre-orders. We have nothing to worry about as it has been discussed many times. I am just talking more generally as an industry as a whole.

 

[Mr.Espresso]

In the US, OEMs are free to feel however they want about dealers, because dealers have a ton of protections enshrined in law to protect their legal monopoly and the allocations they are given from the automakers.

There's nothing automakers can do barring a major shift in law or doing something like granting Amazon franchises so they can wipe the floor with existing dealers via online sales.

Trust me, the protections are starting to be torn down. Hence why most legacy manufacturers are spinning off their EV division into entirely new subsidiaries to circumvent the dealer-franchise laws, thus allowing them to replicate the factory-direct Tesla model.

I am all for the factory-direct model for mass-appeal vehicles. I’m on the fence when it comes to specialty vehicles. My opinion is meaningless so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[evomind]

Anybody who flips should be reprimanded for it in my personal opinion. Ineos should follow Mercedes and make buyers sign a 12 month no flip agreement like they do for all G-Class buyers in USA.

Those are almost unenforceable.

 

[Planetfa11]

Those are almost unenforceable.

Generally, I agree - how would any car company or dealer know you flipped at all? But in the rarified air of certain brands, they don't prevent you from turning around and re-selling, they simply blacklist you.

My wife owns a $15,000 Birkin - she told me if she resells it and the purse comes back for re-conditioning at an authorized Hermes dealer and she is not the owner when they run the serial number, her name goes into their database and she is blocked from buying Hermes products in the future (oh, the humanity - this is actually better for our bank account). It used to be that you were only blocked at a single location but the Hermes brand was being diluted by flippers so frequently, they instituted a dealer-wide serial number network. People can, and will, flip these bags for 2x their value. Hermes doesn't need their future business, it isn't a "mass-produced" consumer brand, so they will simply blacklist the holder of the flipped serial numbers. Consider Ferrari - you can wave a blank check and you will still never be able to buy certain models. Their rarity and cost ensures their ability to simply say "no".

The question, really, is whether Grenadiers are exclusive, and coveted enough to be able to do this. Mercedes G63 models can run $340K so the answer there is "probably yes." For Grens, I would imagine flipping will happen in every one of their markets - look at the Autotrader posts in EU to see it happening in real-time.

 

[YellowLab]

Generally, I agree - how would any car company or dealer know you flipped at all? But in the rarified air of certain brands, they don't prevent you from turning around and re-selling, they simply blacklist you.

My wife owns a $15,000 Birkin - she told me if she resells it and the purse comes back for re-conditioning at an authorized Hermes dealer and she is not the owner when they run the serial number, her name goes into their database and she is blocked from buying Hermes products in the future (oh, the humanity - this is actually better for our bank account). It used to be that you were only blocked at a single location but the Hermes brand was being diluted by flippers so frequently, they instituted a dealer-wide serial number network. People can, and will, flip these bags for 2x their value. Hermes doesn't need their future business, it isn't a "mass-produced" consumer brand, so they will simply blacklist the holder of the flipped serial numbers. Consider Ferrari - you can wave a blank check and you will still never be able to buy certain models. Their rarity and cost ensures their ability to simply say "no".

The question, really, is whether Grenadiers are exclusive, and coveted enough to be able to do this. Mercedes G63 models can run $340K so the answer there is "probably yes." For Grens, I would imagine flipping will happen in every one of their markets - look at the Autotrader posts in EU to see it happening in real-time.

Ferrari has a simple way around this. On their limited production cars the first 12-24 months is a lease so you cannot sell the car - then at the end you have the option to buy it. Ineos can prevent dealers from flipping - and they can do that by tracking ownership changes and threatening legal action to dealers. On the private customer end, it is very difficult to enforce unless there is a contract that they have all owners sign (and who would).

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Thanks to @MM in South TX for sharing your experience with Ford and the Dealership. It is enlightening for those who are not aware of the self-serving legislative situation that the auto dealers have established in the USA. While I'm hopeful no one has a story to share like that about their Grenadier experience, the reality is if anyone does get that treatment, telling the story here like MM did is exactly the kind of thing I would appreciate in a place like this.

I think the best benefit of this forum is that it connects purchasers together, and because the Gren is a tool moreso than a status symbol like a Ferrari or a Porsche, folks are going to want to evaluate it to ensure it will do the job they need before they drop any coin. That means they are more likely to find this lovely little digital pub that Mr. Barnes has provided to us to support that evaluation, and if the first thing they see is "Dealership A in Eastern Timbuktu is fleecing people, but Dealership B in Western Nowheresville is selling for MSRP", it won't take long for Dealership A to start having some trouble selling Grenadiers, especially after the first few "gotta have the latest and greatest thing" types pass and the real users of the Grenadier are the main purchasers.

I do think the first year or two, we will see some fleecing happening -- such is life, some people are unscrupulous -- but I also think that when the hype wears off and the dust settles, those dealers who screwed people will have gone the way of the Dinosaur, while those who honoured the spirit of this project will be selling and servicing Grenadiers in North America for decades to come, but that's only if folks come back and share their purchase experiences so that the marketplace can hold any shady dealers accountable by voting with our dollars.

 

[CB]

The only reason we have crazy dealer markups is because we have a country full of dumbasses willing to pay it. In 2016 i obtained an allocation for a 2019 Porsche GT3RS. After a 3 year wait, I was able to place my order. My dealership, which only received an allocation for 2, sold it to me at MSRP. At the same time, Porsche dealers in California were marking them up as high as $100,000. Bottom line, find a dealer who will sell at MSRP or walk.

 

[Asnes]

I believe pre-June 30 reservation holders will be fine, no markup. Greg suggested this in the strongest terms possible without saying Ineos is requiring it, because legally they cannot say that publicly. I am not concerned.

Orders placed post June 30, 2023 is another story.

 

[GoneNative]

Thanks to @MM in South TX for sharing your experience with Ford and the Dealership. It is enlightening for those who are not aware of the self-serving legislative situation that the auto dealers have established in the USA. While I'm hopeful no one has a story to share like that about their Grenadier experience, the reality is if anyone does get that treatment, telling the story here like MM did is exactly the kind of thing I would appreciate in a place like this.

I think the best benefit of this forum is that it connects purchasers together, and because the Gren is a tool moreso than a status symbol like a Ferrari or a Porsche, folks are going to want to evaluate it to ensure it will do the job they need before they drop any coin. That means they are more likely to find this lovely little digital pub that Mr. Barnes has provided to us to support that evaluation, and if the first thing they see is "Dealership A in Eastern Timbuktu is fleecing people, but Dealership B in Western Nowheresville is selling for MSRP", it won't take long for Dealership A to start having some trouble selling Grenadiers, especially after the first few "gotta have the latest and greatest thing" types pass and the real users of the Grenadier are the main purchasers.

I do think the first year or two, we will see some fleecing happening -- such is life, some people are unscrupulous -- but I also think that when the hype wears off and the dust settles, those dealers who screwed people will have gone the way of the Dinosaur, while those who honoured the spirit of this project will be selling and servicing Grenadiers in North America for decades to come, but that's only if folks come back and share their purchase experiences so that the marketplace can hold any shady dealers accountable by voting with our dollars.

https://www.theineosforum.com/threads/list-of-usa-east-dealers-with-no-mark-up-add-ons.12412413/#post-1333187718

 

[MTNDOG]

Generally, I agree - how would any car company or dealer know you flipped at all? But in the rarified air of certain brands, they don't prevent you from turning around and re-selling, they simply blacklist you.

My wife owns a $15,000 Birkin - she told me if she resells it and the purse comes back for re-conditioning at an authorized Hermes dealer and she is not the owner when they run the serial number, her name goes into their database and she is blocked from buying Hermes products in the future (oh, the humanity - this is actually better for our bank account). It used to be that you were only blocked at a single location but the Hermes brand was being diluted by flippers so frequently, they instituted a dealer-wide serial number network. People can, and will, flip these bags for 2x their value. Hermes doesn't need their future business, it isn't a "mass-produced" consumer brand, so they will simply blacklist the holder of the flipped serial numbers. Consider Ferrari - you can wave a blank check and you will still never be able to buy certain models. Their rarity and cost ensures their ability to simply say "no".

The question, really, is whether Grenadiers are exclusive, and coveted enough to be able to do this. Mercedes G63 models can run $340K so the answer there is "probably yes." For Grens, I would imagine flipping will happen in every one of their markets - look at the Autotrader posts in EU to see it happening in real-time.

I didn't even know you could spend $15K on a purse, some days l think I'm playing in the wrong league to purchase a Grenadier.

 

[anand]

I didn't even know you could spend $15K on a purse, some days l think I'm playing in the wrong league to purchase a Grenadier.

You can spend more than $15k on a purse

You're not necessarily in the wrong league.... Reservation holders are literally across the entire spectrum

 

[DDG]

The overall market has cooled off substantially. There are still a few unobtainable cars out there. Broncos are piling up at all of my local dealers. Not the Bronco Raptors though. The free money/low interest economy of the past many years ran into the constrained supply of covid in a perfect storm. US auto dealers did what any capitalist (maybe with low integrity) does in a supply-demand equation. It is taking some time to get back to equilibrium on MSRP vs markups. The demand for the Grenadier is not such that we will likely see markups. Add to that Ineos’ stated stance to prevent that; I think pricing will be fine. You could make a very good argument that the MSRP is already 10-15% too high on the Grenadier (don’t shoot me for saying so. I am a first day order). Just talk to your dealer when it’s time and ask for the bottom line price in writing before the vehicle arrives. If a dealer tries to raise the price, you simply refuse.

I really wish I could do that for a Porsche GT3 with the “touring package” and a no cost manual transmission. Even with MSRP of $215k. Rare and desirable cars will always be impossible for the normal guy to buy.

Long post already but to add some evidence to my theory: I collect watches. A Rolex Submariner in stainless steel has been impossible to purchase at MSRP for about seven years. The only way to get one is to pay a second hand seller an extra 50-100% markup! Last month I got a call from my local Rolex official dealer. “I have a Submariner for you if you’d like it?” Bought it at MSRP. No markup. Things are indeed changing. There’s less crazy money being thrown around

 

[evomind]

Ferrari has a simple way around this. On their limited production cars the first 12-24 months is a lease so you cannot sell the car - then at the end you have the option to buy it. Ineos can prevent dealers from flipping - and they can do that by tracking ownership changes and threatening legal action to dealers. On the private customer end, it is very difficult to enforce unless there is a contract that they have all owners sign (and who would).

Even that would be near unenforceable.
Now perhaps dealer/manufacturer buy backs. Much easier way to keep control.
Its hard to enforce a contract that restricts your legal right.
The lease way would be the way to control ownership and whatnot I guess.

Didnt Ford sue that China sympathizer John Cena for flipping his Ford GT?
Ford lost.

 

[evomind]

Flipping usually isnt a big concern to the manufacturers.
They already got their money.

 

[Cheshire cat]

Well that's a head scratcher. I live in the Fort Worth area and will keep my eyes peeled. I'm 99.98% certain it didn't arrive via Ineos.

If there is an owned Grenadier floating around here I hope he posts and tells the story. I've got questions.

My cousin travels between his job at FW / Dallas airport and Mingus, about 80 miles to the West. I will ask him for any other details he might remember. The owner was in the market for an old Land Rover Defender rebuild but felt the Grenadier gave the best of both worlds and for less money.

 

[stratego]

It's more or less impossible to import a vehicle as an individual, even if military unless INEOS has put stickers on the car declaring adherence to FMVSS and EPA regs, and has had its US office formally declare the same to the DOT/EPA.

Ineos can import on MFG plates, and there are a few other situations that might apply, but it would be wild if INEOS did global homologation at the outset.

 

[Cheshire cat]

It's more or less impossible to import a vehicle as an individual, even if military unless INEOS has put stickers on the car declaring adherence to FMVSS and EPA regs, and has had its US office formally declare the same to the DOT/EPA.

Ineos can import on MFG plates, and there are a few other situations that might apply, but it would be wild if INEOS did global homologation at the outset.

All a bit strange. My cousin has been a close friend of 50 years plus and I have never known him to send me on a false steer. He is an airline captain with AA and someone I have complete faith in. It will likely remain a mystery as it was only a five minute exchange with someone sat in a Grenadier at DFW.

 

[MTNDOG]

All a bit strange. My cousin has been a close friend of 50 years plus and I have never known him to send me on a false steer. He is an airline captain with AA and someone I have complete faith in. It will likely remain a mystery as it was only a five minute exchange with someone sat in a Grenadier at DFW.

Would be interesting to know the rest of the story. I don't doubt your cousin more doubt in the story from the mysterious Grenadier owner.

 

[stratego]

All a bit strange. My cousin has been a close friend of 50 years plus and I have never known him to send me on a false steer. He is an airline captain with AA and someone I have complete faith in. It will likely remain a mystery as it was only a five minute exchange with someone sat in a Grenadier at DFW.

As the poster above, I don't doubt him. There are only a handful of ways that the vehicle can be permanently imported. If Ineos did produce UK/EU/ROW vehicles with FMVSS/EPA compliance already baked in that's incredible. Unlike the EU and many other regimes, cars in the US/Canada/Mexico only need to be self-certified by the automaker, so it's possible but automakers never like to do this, since it enables grey market imports to a top market.

Otherwise, the guy temp imported the vehicle, is committing some sort of crime, or has a business (such as a manufacturer license) that could register a non-conforming vehicle for use on US roads.

 

[Jiman01]

Flipping usually isnt a big concern to the manufacturers.
They already got their money.

I didn’t find that to be the case when I bought my ND. After I put in my allocation and told it would be about 6-9 months for the 6 cylinder and more than a year for the 8, I got a call from my sales guy offering to bump me up to a different allocation slot, only 3 months wait. Of course I took it, but then asked him how I got moved up.

Turns out a loyal LR buyer was on his 3rd ND order when he got busted for selling/flipping the cars for $50-$75K over sticker. He was banned by LR. Apparently when a vehicle gets sold a VIN check comes back to the original dealer, or something to that effect.

The most ironic part was that after few months go by, and I get a call from a different sales rep and he tells me he’s taking over all the previous reps accounts and just wanted to introduce himself. I later find out that the first rep, along with other guys in sales and. finance all got caught and fired.

When I finalized my deal, I was warned by the dealer, in a friendly way of course, that I would be black listed if I sold my vehicle in the first 6 months. He said if I genuinely hated the vehicle and wanted to get rid of it, to bring it back to the dealership and he’d take care of me, but not to flip it.

Whether this will be a problem for the IG, IDK but it certainly applies to the Defender.