Summary of Reviews

[trobex]

Comparing a $35,000 vehicle that you need to remake into what you want, with a $100,000 vehicle that won’t do what you want easily, is probably not a good comparison.

At $100,000, I want all the comforts and all the tech. It’s not a tractor at that price point.

I would dare say the “conversion ratio” is probably quite low for wrangler rock crawler’s that have specced out Grenadier’s.
Two different markets.

My 2nd hand $40 mountain bike would go up the Rockies with far less hassle... albeit... my middle age fitness level would probably expose that as a lie!

 

[Lord Ripon USA]

My 2nd hand $40 mountain bike would go up the Rockies with far less hassle... albeit... my middle age fitness level would probably expose that as a lie!

For me, because I am a curious fellow, I always wonder about optimizing things so that decisions are made more clearly.

A long time ago, when the opportunity to reserve a grenadier presented itself, I felt that the reservation fee was too low.
I watched a YouTube video from a London fellow who had a tricked out defender, and he was unsure if he was going to get the result he wanted purchasing a grenadier.

But the reservation cost was so low, he threw his hat in the ring.

I have wondered for sometime how many people like that were in the pool.

The conversion ratio i.e. reservation forward to sale and close, is an interesting number to me.

For every person displaying angst on the Internet there will be people that just decide to bail without explanation.

I’m pretty sure, at $100,000, all of the low end reserve individuals will bail. Interest rates, cost of entry, insurance, plates based on vehicle weight, all add up to make it an unreachable dream.
1000$ doc fees add an easy out.

It’s an expensive car, Which is where the old defender always was in the United States.

I’m pretty confident anybody building out an entry-level wrangler, isn’t going to sign the paperwork for a grenadier.

 

[Rubicon Maybe]

I still don’t get your point in terms of OEM fitted equipment? Maybe Jeep or Ford give you different tyre size choices in the states, but in every instance of a new 4wd purchase I have had to make the conscious decision to upgrade the agressiveness and size of tyres to suit MY needs, which may be different to the next guy.
The Grenny comes with 31/32” tyres, but in most markets so dors everything else. We just fir 33” - 35” etc and RT or MT if it suits us.


In terms of Beer O’clock hill they guy was saying that 31”s are a downside to getting up that sort of hill. And he’s right. Nearly everything else that has had a crack is on lifted vehicles with larger tyres - post facotry fitment.
The fact that the IG gets up there despite not being lifted with standard tyres speaks volumes.

If it is done correctly, switching out to larger tires (more than 2 inches/5cm results in a number of changes. When I went to 35inch tires on my stock Rubicon, it involved replacing the front drive shaft, pinion angles, shocks, springs, regearing both axles, etc etc.

This is why I am a bit hesitant to start aggressively messing with the geometry of the chassis until a lot more is known. But then I also know folks who just threw large tires on theirs and drove away. The problems came later, lol

 

[255/85]

A 1.5 inch lift and 33s would be enough to open up some access to some great areas and would be enough to keep you off the undercarriage - because grinding over your skids gets pretty tiring and has you worried about damage that might halt your progress. I guess a silver lining is that the low hanging gas tank skid plate will keep your passenger-side rock rail from getting too bashed-up (that's a joke).

With 31.5" tires you should only need an inch to run 33s unless you're wanting a lot of extra width. Feel free to tap the plastic. And while you're at it solve your fuel tank issues. I ain't even joking.

Here's the thing folks: if you don't drive the Grenadier on the trails here, why do you have it? To drive to and from the ski resort? There are much better vehicles for that. To drive on dirt roads? You don't need a solid front axle (and the on-road penalty that brings) for driving dirt roads. As a daily-driver around town? Of course there are much better vehicles for that. We don't have much in the way of long-distance touring that requires a really sturdy off-road vehicle, but that covers moderate terrain in terms of rocks and ground clearance. Just about all the really remote stuff in Colorado and Utah also require a little better ground clearance than you get with 31.5-inch tires. Just goes to show - geography matters - and off-roading really varies by region.

Your last sentence here smacks of an attempt to apologize after the insult. I really don't think you have any business deciding what anyone else should be driving and for what purpose.

Perhaps it's just your naturally emphatic typing tone but it seems like you're still trying to trash the Grenadier as it is and I don't get the point any more. You've made clear that you want a vehicle with different qualities, that you need a serious rock crawler and not a "long distance tourer", soooo... how come you don't go buy one? Wrangler, Bronco, some kind of Craptor or T-Wrecks or whatever. Surely something out there fits the bill, no? SIncerely, good luck.

 

[255/85]

I’m pretty sure, at $100,000, all of the low end reserve individuals will bail. Interest rates, cost of entry, insurance, plates based on vehicle weight, all add up to make it an unreachable dream.

Your perspective seems distorted or misinformed. Our sub $80K build will do everything your supposedly $100K model will. The vehicle costs $71.5K with a grand and a half fees at most dealers. Lockers are $2K. That's $75K. Well below the what many Jeeps cost.

I’m pretty confident anybody building out an entry-level wrangler, isn’t going to sign the paperwork for a grenadier.

A conclusion that appears to be based on cherry-picked stats and the prices of a top tier IG vs. a low spec Wrangler. Sometimes one needs to step out of your own paradigm to get anywhere near an objective assessment.

 

[Baron von Teuchter]

Grens Vs SUVs​

​

Clydesdale Vs Thoroughbred Horses | Strathorn Farm Stables​

Next week our review will be on Apples Vs Pears.

Weirdly that stables is where my kids took their riding lessons, I assumed you were local but, no not really!!

 

[Lord Ripon USA]

Your perspective seems distorted or misinformed. Our sub $80K build will do everything your supposedly $100K model will. The vehicle costs $71.5K with a grand and a half fees at most dealers. Lockers are $2K. That's $75K. Well below the what many Jeeps cost.



A conclusion that appears to be based on cherry-picked stats and the prices of a top tier IG vs. a low spec Wrangler. Sometimes one needs to step out of your own paradigm to get anywhere near an objective assessment.

I work in the automobile automation industry
All across the United States billion dollar projects are being scaled back and delayed, because there is an affordability crisis at retail.
Once you get below the sheet metal, and start looking at the package cost for the grenadier, the unfavorables increase in the marketplace for the units that don’t have all of the unique features that make the grenadier.
Feature equals cost
Cost of bare-bones grenadier might give you the styling on the outside, but underneath the skin, and on the ceiling of the cockpit, that’s a big no.
I’m not against a person building out their preferred style of vehicle one piece at a time, and I am the first to say it’s more expensive for the factory to build sophisticated off-road vehicles. I’m just saying that the customer that buys one all done and the customer that wants to create their own are different.
My state has a 6% sales tax
That adds 5400 to a 90k Fieldmaster with roof deck

 

[Mr.Espresso]

I work in the automobile automation industry
All across the United States billion dollar projects are being scaled back and delayed, because there is an affordability crisis at retail.
Once you get below the sheet metal, and start looking at the package cost for the grenadier, the unfavorables increase in the marketplace for the units that don’t have all of the unique features that make the grenadier.
Feature equals cost
Cost of bare-bones grenadier might give you the styling on the outside, but underneath the skin, and on the ceiling of the cockpit, that’s a big no.
I’m not against a person building out their preferred style of vehicle one piece at a time, and I am the first to say it’s more expensive for the factory to build sophisticated off-road vehicles. I’m just saying that the customer that buys one all done and the customer that wants to create their own are different.
My state has a 6% sales tax
That adds 5400 to a 90k Fieldmaster with roof deck

I 2nd this. A quick way to verify what he has said, is to look at the residual-differentials between factory spec’d pro models and their humbler siblings. ie, Toyota 4Runner Pro vs. 4Runner base, Jeep Wrangler Rubicon vs, Wrangler base, etc…

 

[255/85]

All across the United States billion dollar projects are being scaled back and delayed, because there is an affordability crisis at retail.
Once you get below the sheet metal, and start looking at the package cost for the grenadier, the unfavorables increase in the marketplace for the units that don’t have all of the unique features that make the grenadier.

I completely disagree as to what constitutes a "Grenadier". My interpretation of your viewpoint is that you think of it as a conventional luxury model. I don't. To me it's a medium duty body-on-frame solid-axled 4X4. That's why it is offered as a simple utilitarian work model in just about every market other than NA. And that's only due to the archaic regulations here - not because people don't want a utility version in NA. Ineos is simply not building in exclusivity. Not yet. No one has to buy a TM or FM. If that (exclusivity) happens here in the U.S. it will be because dealers have marked up the entry price to beyond the average buyer's depth of pocket. That doesn't happen with high volume vehicles like, say, the 4Runner other than in unusual situations.

And the Grenadier is never going to compete with a 4Runner in sales volume or profitability which is where the 4Runner shines: as an inexpensive light-duty 4X4 that you can gussy up well enough for a dark bar. It's still a fairly cheap vehicle underneath and off-roady features - either factory optioned or added by the enthusiast which are overpriced in comparison to the entry point - never translate into commensurate returns down the road when it comes time to sell. It all depreciates. Yes, you can expand your market with add-ons. But not your profit percentages. Not in the world of private sales in my experience. The same will most likely hold true for the Grenadier.

Feature equals cost

Only when new or nearly so.

Cost of bare-bones grenadier might give you the styling on the outside, but underneath the skin, and on the ceiling of the cockpit, that’s a big no.

I am not confused by aesthetics. I am only interested in what's underneath the skin. I don't find the vehicle particularly attractive (though many here do - and I respect that) so that's not what I pay the most attention to. I'm trying to illustrate that in my personal opinion - from my perspective - the Grenadier, while appealing outwardly to some or even most, is all about the basic underpinnings. Not a few wires or a battery or a roof rack.

Do clothes make the man? Of course not. Likewise, it's the bones that make the vehicle; not the finery. The fact that you can pay for extras, including aftermarket accessories, at the time of purchase may attract a certain type of buyer for a new vehicle straight off the showroom floor and may simplify things for some, but that doesn't often translate into dollar for dollar return once the warranty expires. Other than the F&R locking differentials (and the Safari windows which not everyone wants) there's little that can't be added by various means at another time and often for less cost. None of it is de rigueur for anyone but the original order holder.

When I helped build custom houses for the wealthy we had a private saying: "What's the easiest way to throw away $100K? Answer: Remodel your kitchen and then live in the house for 5 years." The styles will have changed, the product lines will have evolved, the freshness will have has staled, and your buyer will have moved on.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Tazzieman]

When I helped build custom houses for the wealthy we had a private saying: "What's the easiest way to throw away $100K? Answer: Remodel your kitchen and then live in the house for 5 years." The styles will have changed, the product lines will have evolved, the freshness will have has staled, and your buyer will have moved on.

"Style never goes out of fashion"
We designed our kitchen in 1996; it still looks fresh and contemporary.
Because we designed it to be timeless, not "on trend".
And with the money we've saved by not renovating/moving , the cost of the Grenadier didn't seem too bad

 

[trobex]

For me, because I am a curious fellow, I always wonder about optimizing things so that decisions are made more clearly.

A long time ago, when the opportunity to reserve a grenadier presented itself, I felt that the reservation fee was too low.
I watched a YouTube video from a London fellow who had a tricked out defender, and he was unsure if he was going to get the result he wanted purchasing a grenadier.

But the reservation cost was so low, he threw his hat in the ring.

I have wondered for sometime how many people like that were in the pool.

The conversion ratio i.e. reservation forward to sale and close, is an interesting number to me.

For every person displaying angst on the Internet there will be people that just decide to bail without explanation.

I’m pretty sure, at $100,000, all of the low end reserve individuals will bail. Interest rates, cost of entry, insurance, plates based on vehicle weight, all add up to make it an unreachable dream.
1000$ doc fees add an easy out.

It’s an expensive car, Which is where the old defender always was in the United States.

I’m pretty confident anybody building out an entry-level wrangler, isn’t going to sign the paperwork for a grenadier.

I know a few people who bailed because cost of living and rates were eating them alive. I think far less people will buy a Gren just to butcher it to crawl a few rocks and reduce the take to zero by doing so. A few rich kids might but I would seriously wonder why.

 

[FlyingTexan]

I know a few people who bailed because cost of living and rates were eating them alive. I think far less people will buy a Gren just to butcher it to crawl a few rocks and reduce the take to zero by doing so. A few rich kids might but I would seriously wonder why.

I’m not one to mod anything like that but I certainly never buy a vehicle thinking about what I can get for it resale.

 

[acwiltshire]

I’m not one to mod anything like that but I certainly never buy a vehicle thinking about what I can get for it resale.

Well said I agree. I'm a little perturbed by the thread which seems to focus heavily on on the road price, interest rates and lease costs.

If you have been prudent, not had everything on credit and not bought tha latest Tech of everything and consequently saved - then you will have the ready cash to buy one!

 

[Lord Ripon USA]

Well said I agree. I'm a little perturbed by the thread which seems to focus heavily on on the road price, interest rates and lease costs.

If you have been prudent, not had everything on credit and not bought tha latest Tech of everything and consequently saved - then you will have the ready cash to buy one!

As I said, the reservation price was too low, and the economy moved against all the aspirational buyers.
The projected sales figures for the US are ambitious.
You are talking 2k a month in a country where most people have to finance a $1000,.00 car repair.
The best question that people can ask themselves when they are looking at closing on one, is what will my life look like sending out $2000 a month for a vehicle, long after the new car smell has worn off.

Most of the puffery is just saving face.

 

[DaBull]

As I said, the reservation price was too low, and the economy moved against all the aspirational buyers.
The projected sales figures for the US are ambitious.
You are talking 2k a month in a country where most people have to finance a $1000,.00 car repair.
The best question that people can ask themselves when they are looking at closing on one, is what will my life look like sending out $2000 a month for a vehicle, long after the new car smell has worn off.

Most of the puffery is just saving face.

Hi Lord Ripon USA, Yes, we all have wished the initial pricing would have stayed fixed. It sure appears to me from most on this forum who have taken delivery and put miles on their Grenadier, that they are enjoying their decision to purchase one. I will agree with you that leasing one at these high interest rates can for many be a burden and if one experiences many issues, there will be some disappointment, however at least they will have it under warranty and can turn it back to the dealer.
DaBull

 

[FlyingTexan]

As I said, the reservation price was too low, and the economy moved against all the aspirational buyers.
The projected sales figures for the US are ambitious.
You are talking 2k a month in a country where most people have to finance a $1000,.00 car repair.
The best question that people can ask themselves when they are looking at closing on one, is what will my life look like sending out $2000 a month for a vehicle, long after the new car smell has worn off.

Most of the puffery is just saving face.

Ineos isn’t marketing to someone that couldn’t pay for it. It’s all up to the buyer but if you’re cash strapped then don’t buy a $90k vehicle. However there’s plenty of LR, Mercedes, Suburban, etc owners that can afford them if they wanted them. Ineos is hoping to produce 40k a year globally. I don’t think the US sales numbers need to be that crazy high. If anyone is financing the full purchase then they shouldn’t be buying it.

 

[James]

Ineos isn’t marketing to someone that couldn’t pay for it. It’s all up to the buyer but if you’re cash strapped then don’t buy a $90k vehicle. However there’s plenty of LR, Mercedes, Suburban, etc owners that can afford them if they wanted them. Ineos is hoping to produce 40k a year globally. I don’t think the US sales numbers need to be that crazy high. If anyone is financing the full purchase then they shouldn’t be buying it.

Absolutely - it might sound circular, but of course Ineos is making a car for people who can afford it. Like every other product. There are more than a few people in the US who have plenty of capacity to pay, although like every country there are also lots of people who would like to have things beyond their means - that;s basically everyone!

The fact that Ineos is not chasing volume is significant. I may have remembered this incorrectly, but I think their business plan was to have full volume of 25,000 in their 3rd year, with capacity to go over that if they use the other production line making Smarts for Mercedes (but caps for EU exemption reasons). This year they’re suggesting 12,000, if the US gets 1/2 of that - a made up proportion - then it‘s only 500 a month, probably the daily figure for f100s or Jeeps or something. I expect they will actually exceed that, all going well, but even if they double it, it is still a low volume specialist thing. That type of product has very different imperatives than mass consumerist products.

 

[trobex]

Well said I agree. I'm a little perturbed by the thread which seems to focus heavily on on the road price, interest rates and lease costs.

If you have been prudent, not had everything on credit and not bought tha latest Tech of everything and consequently saved - then you will have the ready cash to buy one!

I paid cash... but I didn't go out of my way to modify a $100K vehicle knowing it will likely result in my resale market being drastically reduced. I would however buy a cheap Jeep and mod it up... knowing I'm not losing much.

 

[trobex]

Ineos isn’t marketing to someone that couldn’t pay for it. It’s all up to the buyer but if you’re cash strapped then don’t buy a $90k vehicle. However there’s plenty of LR, Mercedes, Suburban, etc owners that can afford them if they wanted them. Ineos is hoping to produce 40k a year globally. I don’t think the US sales numbers need to be that crazy high. If anyone is financing the full purchase then they shouldn’t be buying it.

This is correct. They don't care if cashless people cannot afford it - this type of vehicle should not be readily available for people who cannot afford to buy it at current rates, or afford fuel it, or whatever else monetary issue may have arisen of late.

My view (elitist in thought maybe but I don't care) is that $100K toys should be considered as such. $100K goes along way to buying a home and supporting a family. People should focus on the latter in my view then consider the toys. Feeling helpless because costs are now too high (rates) is simply people confirming they are not adept with global monetary cycles. If rates around the world were still at 0.15% - no one would give a damn of the truck was $80K or $100K - just like the quantity of now over leveraged home owners in Australia. You can't cry foul if you didn't too much on your home at record low rates but still purchase a new car... because your 2018 model isn't good enough...

I continue to witness crazy waste and excess in Australia this week and I'm mad!