None commercial version of the station wagon?

[DaveB]

Hello EP - I did not go for the SW Commercial as a VAT free/Biz user, I am not in business. I didn't want alloys, leather seats, raised air intake,access ladder, high power switch panel, compass/altimeter and puddle lamps... Both Belstaff editions are pre-specced with all this stuff which you cant de-select and its £3k of stuff I dont want - INEOS have selected it. I am however wanting the tow pack, heated seats, aux battery, safari windows and had specced all this on the Station Wagon - but the rear seats are totally useless. Do I risk staying with the SW and hope that all the electrics and seats can be moved into pre-drilled holes ?? - or end up having to sell it and re-order a more expensive Belstaff loaded with stuff I dont want but have proper rear seats, - and wait months for it ? The other issue is that if you have paid the £2.5k refundable deposit, your order is 'locked in' and cancelling it will have you kicked off the queue and you are back at the end of a very long queue. I have this in print from INEOS. It is totally infuriating that INEOS are so inflexible and cant see that their policy is causing so many problems and ailenating their potential customers at this stage. Why cant they offer a Grenadier 'Custom Build' ? Start off with the standard shell and normal seating position and use the MY23 Price List showing all the priced options to enable customers to spec their Grenadier - I'd happily pay a 'Custom Build' fee of say £500 just to get what I want and not what someone else has decided. INEOS have the rule book in their control ; how about using it to help customers ?

I am a bit confused. Why don't you order the 5 seat Station wagon without choosing either of the Belstaff editions?

 

[bemax]

Clearly you've made your decision on these, but just who do you have planned to sit in there and for how long.

I currently have a double cab old Defender, I think the rear seating in that is very probably "worse" than the Grenadier but yet have managed 2 adults for extended day trips without anyone complaining.



It does appear to only be a marketing issue for the UK. Looking at some other markets, they appear to be getting the option you want.

I wonder if you waited until the Belstaff editions are out, then Ineos may introduce the option you want?

Ineos might do so. But what a help will it be when the prices have gone up 10 % or more by then?

 

[ECrider]

I am a bit confused. Why don't you order the 5 seat Station wagon without choosing either of the Belstaff editions?
View attachment 7794826

DaveB because he wants exact opposite to what I want. I want second row of seats further forward and seat backs more to the vertical so I can maximise boot space area. Not fussed on passenger comfort. Can understand the importance of the reverse but then if not keen belstaff options then selecting station wagon means you get my preference and cannot select the belstaff configuration with seats furtherback/more reclined

 

[emax]

But you could spec a 5-seat ute to Belstaff level, could you?

 

[DCPU]

Ineos might do so. But what a help will it be when the prices have gone up 10 % or more by then?

He'll be definitely spending all that and more on items he doesn't want and increased roadtax; at the moment the increase is just a guess.

 

[bemax]

He'll be definitely spending all that and more on items he doesn't want and increased roadtax; at the moment the increase is just a guess.

We will see. A friend of mine told me independent from this forum that his dealer told him the same thing with the plan to rise the prices in short future.
If you wait until the Belstaff editions aren’t available anymore this near future might be past already. I don’t think that it will cost less then.
But I do not know how high the road tax is in UK.
In Germany the cars price does not make a difference in the tax. The CO2 output is the most important thing here.

 

[minidok]

I am a bit confused. Why don't you order the 5 seat Station wagon without choosing either of the Belstaff editions?
View attachment 7794826

Beside the choice for either edition, based on individual needs, I wanted to point out the limited availability of the plain Station Wagen. UK site does list it where i.e. CH site dosen't show such a variant.

 

[DCPU]

But I do not know how high the road tax is in UK.

I have no doubt that prices will be going up but road tax differences between the M1 & N1 variants are also a big issue here in the UK.

At current prices, over the first 6 years the M1 variant will cost £4,965 to tax. That's £3,195 more than the N1 variant.

The M1 gets cheaper to tax from then on; but it will take over 30 years of ownership to recover the difference paid in those first years!

Any future changes in the rate of tax are more likely to hit the M1 side harder. As they have already done. They are the real target that people don't have much sympathy for. N1 users can hide in the tall grass with the other commercial users who are seen as more of a necessary evil than outright excess.

 

[ECrider]

+1 for the N1 variant. Hope speed cameras don't get wise and start number plate recognition for travelling at 70mph in a commercial.

 

[bemax]

The Diesel in my configuration will cost 937 € / year. As a commercial car it would only be 210 €.
That would make a difference of over 7000 € in 10 years. that would at least be the 10 % price rising what we most likely will see the next month.

Is there anybody from Germany who knows whether the Grenadier can be registered as a "Nutzfahrzeug" with five seats?

 

[emax]

According to Krah & Enders it can.

 

[Max@Johnner]

I am a bit confused. Why don't you order the 5 seat Station wagon without choosing either of the Belstaff editions?
View attachment 7794826

I have the Station Wagon on order and it is this model that has the rear seat further forward. It will be DVLA classed as an N1 Light Goods Vehicle and business users can reclaim VAT. I am not a business user - I just want a 'basic' Grenadier and spec it up with my choice of options and not have those which have been pre-selected by INEOS to make the Fieldmaster and Trialmaster editions. Both of these models have the rear seats further back and the seat back is raked back more as well. But... they come with alloys, leather seats, raised air intake, access ladder, high power electrical panel ( for use with winches etc ). One of these specced to include my options is costing nearly £4k more than a Station Wagon - which has a rear seat like a church pew. Many adults at the recent INEOS driving event in Kelso, also have serious issues with the rear seat comfort.

 

[Max@Johnner]

Ineos might do so. But what a help will it be when the prices have gone up 10 % or more by then?

I'm planning driving trips from north of Scotland to south coast England with four adults plus offshore sailing gear. Very comfortable in a Discovery 4 but having sat in a Station Wagon with the rear seat in the forward position, certainly not. I drove the Belstaff Fieldmaster ( rear seats in the further back position) and sat in the rear with adults in the front seats - all very roomy and certainly a good place to be for a 10 hr journey.

 

[Max@Johnner]

> and then have to get welders and electrical technicians to shift the batteries, fuse units, CTEK inverter/charging unit etc

You don't have to.

> I'll wait to see a production Station Wagon at my dealer, check out if the
> 'C'pillar slots are in place for the seat back rake, and the fixings in the boot floor etc. are accessible.

That's a consequent solution.

Btw: Batteries and electric stuff is afaik not affected. I think they can rest where they are.

The main battery is located at the front, near-side and is directly against the rear seat frame - the frame cannot be moved back without first moving the fuse units then the main battery.Also the rear seat belts need to be moved along with the electronics. The INEOS rep told me that the visible fixings for the seat in the rear position will most probably be put 'beyond use' to prevent owners saving the VAT and then moving seats. I am not a business user and cant claim back VAT - I just want a rear seat in a useable position that should be available in a car costing close to £60k when options are added.

 

[emax]

the frame cannot be moved back without first moving the fuse units then the main battery.

I don't think so.

But I may of course be wrong.

 

[DCPU]

If you look at the photos at the bottom of the first page of this thread, there's an example of each rear seat fixing. The battery(ies), fuse boxes and other items all appear fixed in the same locations for both.

The seat frame appears to just move over the top.

 

[Max@Johnner]

Thanks for these pics - very interesting to see how they are laid out here, The battery located in the upper pic would be the main battery and the lower pic ( assuming its the same vehicle ) is the aux/leisure battery. It would be great to be able to slide the seat frame over all the items below the seat base and if all the relevant fixing/locations were still accesible and useable then that should solve the problem of the poor leg room in the rear.

 

[Ever Pragmatic]

Hello EP - I did not go for the SW Commercial as a VAT free/Biz user, I am not in business. I didn't want alloys, leather seats, raised air intake,access ladder, high power switch panel, compass/altimeter and puddle lamps... Both Belstaff editions are pre-specced with all this stuff which you cant de-select and its £3k of stuff I dont want - INEOS have selected it. I am however wanting the tow pack, heated seats, aux battery, safari windows and had specced all this on the Station Wagon - but the rear seats are totally useless. Do I risk staying with the SW and hope that all the electrics and seats can be moved into pre-drilled holes ?? - or end up having to sell it and re-order a more expensive Belstaff loaded with stuff I dont want but have proper rear seats, - and wait months for it ? The other issue is that if you have paid the £2.5k refundable deposit, your order is 'locked in' and cancelling it will have you kicked off the queue and you are back at the end of a very long queue. I have this in print from INEOS. It is totally infuriating that INEOS are so inflexible and cant see that their policy is causing so many problems and ailenating their potential customers at this stage. Why cant they offer a Grenadier 'Custom Build' ? Start off with the standard shell and normal seating position and use the MY23 Price List showing all the priced options to enable customers to spec their Grenadier - I'd happily pay a 'Custom Build' fee of say £500 just to get what I want and not what someone else has decided. INEOS have the rule book in their control ; how about using it to help customers ?

cheers for this and my plan is to simple change the spec at the contract signing stage. Your idea of custom build is excellent including the fee.. happier if it was a no fee option however.

 

[Tomdoc]

Waiting for my SW 2 seater with lots of extra added bits. Not a business user but still will be an N1 vehicle I guess. This means (and I cannot believe I didn't know this!) that the speed limits are different to the M1 class IG. Who knew!! I don't think the cops or the sped cameras will differentiate between a M1 of N1 IG but what do you guys think?

 

[Logsplitter]

Waiting for my SW 2 seater with lots of extra added bits. Not a business user but still will be an N1 vehicle I guess. This means (and I cannot believe I didn't know this!) that the speed limits are different to the M1 class IG. Who knew!! I don't think the cops or the sped cameras will differentiate between a M1 of N1 IG but what do you guys think?

I’m going for same model. 2 seat commercial plus rough pack , smooth pack etc. not for commercial use. Apparently some ANPR cameras can pick you up for speeding in commercials vehicles. Just hope you get caught before me , so you can warn me to stick to 60mph on dual carriageways . I think the cops must be having a bad day if they start differentiating between M1 and N1 Grenadiers regarding speeding fines.