New prices update (09 Nov 2022)

[ADVAW8S]

My n54 had hpfp issues and wastegate rattle that bmw refused to address/fix. Overall not happy with how bmw dealt with widely known problems with their motor. It was great to drive, but reliable it was not. I don't know why ineos couldnt arrange to put the 3.0 Cummins ecodiesel in the grenadier or if they even looked into it.

And that's where the problems come about when ineos looks to get into the US market. Motor and drivetrain would make a difference to me if they bothered to put out a manual diesel. I would bet most here would prefer that combination.

So now we're left waiting to see if grenadier makes being an early adopter here a worthwhile endeavor.

Not to nitpick but I am gonna. The Eco diesel had issues in 2015 and 2016 that cause engine to overheat and leak exhaust into the cab. The engine was redesigned and updated. I think the last major refresh was 2019 or 2020. This is no different than BMW moving to the B58.

Why would Ineos spend extra money to have an engine and drive train specific to one country because a small subset of ppl would buy it. I think if you want diesel go to a scrap yard and buy a 2019 diesel BMW x5 and jam the engine into the Grenadier.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

I know this has been discussed elsewhere, but Ineos is making rather principled decisions with the Grenadier. They want this to be an Heirloom-style of car for the world -- one that you can ride hard, put away wet, and then watch your grandkids do the same from the patio of the retirement home. The same rig had to be one that can serve Timmy's Safari Lodge for the next 60 years, ferrying legions of guests into the Savannah. So while they had the pick of the litter when it comes to Engines, only one engine supplier -- BMW -- was willing to guarantee engine availability for a decade, and with regulations about banning ICE cropping up all over Europe and North America, that was as good as they could get. Everyone else was less than 5 years, and their only other option would be to design their own powerplant which would be very likely be objectively worse than anything made by folks with experience, and the juice would not at all be worth the squeeze. On the basis of longevity and parts availability - I'm glad they chose the engine they did; it was the best option in the same way Recaro seats were the best option. There may be some serviceability issues (timing chain location being one of them), but nothing is perfect, so we gotta pick what compromises we can stomach, and every other engine choice was a substantially worse compromise.

The Grenadier, as a project, has a vision and that's what I bought into -- so far, every decision they are making aligns with that vision. Even the price increases -- yes, everyone is doing them. But CPI data today showed a Year Over Year 7.xx% increase in prices this morning. That's in addition to a similar increase LAST October. So, if you are buying something today, you are going to be paying on average 14% more for that thing then you did in 2019, which is crazy, but inflation like that makes everything more expensive - including all the componentry going into the Grenadier. It is a business after all, and they need to at least earn enough to keep the lights on at the factory, so there's no way they weren't going to increase prices due to this crazy inflation.

But Ineos wanted an accessible, rugged, off-roader -- that was the vision -- so they increase prices by 10% above their confirmed pricing, which was pretty close to the ballpark pricing target they told us from "back in the day" when this project first started. Given that the industry average price increase for new cars is sitting at 22% Year over Year, I'm not that upset about a 10% jump over prices that were discussed nearly 3 years ago. I'm not thrilled about it, but I understand why they made the decision they made -- everyone who is buying stuff these days -- manufacturers and end-consumers alike -- are being forced to eat a poop sandwich. At least Ineos has table manners, is chewing with their mouth closed, and aren't trying to convince us it's a steak.

 

[Spjnr]

Drivetrain doesn't concern me. Less to go wrong with the EVs probably. And to be honest, is anyone who's ordered a grenadier thrilled it's got a bmw powerplant?

Yeah im thrilled by the B57 engine... probably one of the best diesels on the market

 

[DCPU]

I know this has been discussed elsewhere, but Ineos is making rather principled decisions with the Grenadier. They want this to be an Heirloom-style of car for the world -- one that you can ride hard, put away wet, and then watch your grandkids do the same from the patio of the retirement home.

That is indeed a fine ideal.

It is a business after all, and they need to at least earn enough to keep the lights on at the factory,

Factory turned a really nice healthy profit in it's first 12 months under Ineos ownership.

confirmed pricing, which was pretty close to the ballpark pricing target they told us from "back in the day" when this project first started.

I think price creep was already apparent from early days to first confirmed pricing:

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

That is indeed a fine ideal.


Factory turned a really nice healthy profit in it's first 12 months under Ineos ownership.


I think price creep was already apparent from early days to first confirmed pricing:
View attachment 7795765

I do recall a lot of skepticism when they first announced those prices. But I always thought they got pretty close to go from 45k ballpark "back in the day" before they even had their suppliers finalized, to only 49k as of May of this year (https://www.carwow.co.uk/news/5433/ineos-grenadier-4x4-price-specs-and-release-date#gref) after many of those supplier decisions were made and prototypes were out running around the world. The price creep after that is just a reality of our economy and world right now. Our governments turned on the money printers over the pandemic, and something like 30% of all the money in existence has been created in the last 18 months (That may not be 100% accurate figures, but it gets the gist of it; i'm also not trying to start a political discussion in this thread about whether they should have or shouldn't have done that; they did, and supply and demand then comes into play). Couple that "money printer goes brrrr" approach with the highest corporate profits ever in that same time period -- not to mention the millions of workers who are now dead or incapacitated, creating worldwide labour shortages (more $$$) -- and we've got ourselves a highly volatile economy right now. Well, not really volatile as that suggests things go up AND down, and we're only seeing the "up' in most things! But jokes aside, we have a situation where price creep on everything is inevitable. And in manufacturing, these things tend to be delayed in terms of their impact. A 15% increase in the price of a widget in May of 2022 might not hit the Grenadier until they go to re-sign the contract with the widget supplier in February of 2023. And it snowballs -- the February price increase has to cover the extra costs the supplier incurred from May '22 to February of '23 where they were locked into Price $X with Ineos, which they arrived at by Costs $Y for them with a profit margin, but their costs over that contract increased so they are actually $Y + 15%-25% across the board which means they've lost money on this contract, so they need to jack the February '23 prices even higher to recoup their losses.

It's going to get worse before it gets better, I think. More price increased for the Gren are inevitable in the future for as long as we have this high inflation environment (Get 'em while they are cheap folks!). And the overall point is everyone is in that boat. Ineos could have followed the lead of other manufacturers yesterday and jacked prices by 22%, and they would have been justified in doing so based on the industry averages and supplier price/costs; our conversation would largely be the same (as there is now, there would lot of frustrated people, which is totally fair as one thing that has NOT increased by double-digit percentages are our wages!). But they didn't do that, they kept it at less than half the industry average. That strikes me as a relatively decent decision that lines up with the spirit of this project -- but I also fully admit to having drank the Kool Aid on this one!

There's no way the price wasn't going to go up, in the same way there's no way you're going to pay the same for milk, cheese, and eggs as you did last year. My perspective is that it didn't go up as much as I would have thought/expected given the industry as a whole, and I'll take that as good news.

I'm reminded of the incredibly basic, bare-bones Chevy work truck I bought in 2018 for $37k, which I then put about 30,000 kilometers on. I sold it in 2020 for $38k. I wish I could repeat that luck with my house but it's gone the other direction!

 

[Deleted User Account.]

Not to nitpick but I am gonna. The Eco diesel had issues in 2015 and 2016 that cause engine to overheat and leak exhaust into the cab. The engine was redesigned and updated. I think the last major refresh was 2019 or 2020. This is no different than BMW moving to the B58.

Why would Ineos spend extra money to have an engine and drive train specific to one country because a small subset of ppl would buy it. I think if you want diesel go to a scrap yard and buy a 2019 diesel BMW x5 and jam the engine into the Grenadier.

Because production of that motor was set to stop this year and it's been approved in the states. Presumably ineos could have contacted them and arranged to continue production for the US market?
But pick nits all you want. Reality is ineos is missing the mark on this as it relates to its eventual US release.

And no thanks on the x5 diesel. Sister has one and has had problems with her ecm and dpf regen.

 

[dime80]

I have spoken to INEOS to make sure I can give you some more information.

1, If you had placed your full £2,500.00 deposit before today 09/11/2022 then you will not incur the price increase.

2, If you are seeing a price increase in your online account for a car you ordered before 09/11/2022 don't worry, you will be paying the original price you ordered at and not the increase. The price INEOS have in their system for you is the pre price increase price.

3, When now going onto the website to order your car you will see a total price including VAT and OTR costs making this much clearer and not having an increase when you go to checkout.

4, The download function for a PDF in your account has been disabled whilst they fix the issue.

5, Apologies for not being able to jump on this sooner to clear things up for you all and for not joining in with much conversation yesterday as I'm sure you're all aware I have strict guidelines of what I can and can't say or do.

Anyway, hope this clears up some confusion for you all.

Steve.

Thanks for your information it is much appreciated. With fixed price for order holders, when finalising contract with some adjustments to extras will original pricing be applicable too. I was umming and aghhing about fixed winch or front tow bar with removable which. There has been significant movement of this costings, Any clarification would be help full.

 

[Halliwell Jones Chester]

Thanks for your information it is much appreciated. With fixed price for order holders, when finalising contract with some adjustments to extras will original pricing be applicable too. I was umming and aghhing about fixed winch or front tow bar with removable which. There has been significant movement of this coatings. Any clarification would be help full.

If you had already placed your deposit before the deadline then any spec changes you do will be on the old pricing.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Because production of that motor was set to stop this year and it's been approved in the states. Presumably ineos could have contacted them and arranged to continue production for the US market?
But pick nits all you want. Reality is ineos is missing the mark on this as it relates to its eventual US release.

And no thanks on the x5 diesel. Sister has one and has had problems with her ecm and dpf regen.

I don't think they are missing the mark, but I think it depends on what you think the Grenadier's mark is. You previously mentioned you were cross shopping an Escalade EV or a Rivian EV with the Gran, but as another user said, those are very different rigs; the Grenadier can do some of the same things as those vehicles, in the same way a Civic can do some of the same things as a minivan (which is a significant overlap - easily 90% of use cases!), but they are totally different markets as the family of 7 isn't shopping for a Civic, and the teenager with cash wanting their first car isn't shopping for the Minivan.

Your use case straddles a few areas a bit by the sounds of it (which is great, because it gives you lots of options;I personally love the Rivian and my folks have an Escalade with the big motor, so I totally see the appeal!) and, based on what you are shopping for and the reasons you shared, your use case does appear to align with that "mass market" appeal that those vehicles have. The Grenadier will do some of that mass market stuff for sure, but I don't think your use case is who the Grenadier is targeting. It's not really meant to be a mass-market vehicle. It fills a niche and they expect to only sell about 25,000 of them a year worldwide. If you are one of those 25,000 buyers, you are buying the Grenadier because no other vehicle on the market can meet your needs. For example, if they had gone with different engines in the USA than the rest of the world as you are suggesting, I'd be 100% out as a buyer -- it would no longer serve my needs, which along with 24,999 folks worldwide (at least, that's what Ineos hopes!), are unique and currently not served by other vehicles.

 

[ADVAW8S]

Because production of that motor was set to stop this year and it's been approved in the states. Presumably ineos could have contacted them and arranged to continue production for the US market?
But pick nits all you want. Reality is ineos is missing the mark on this as it relates to its eventual US release.

And no thanks on the x5 diesel. Sister has one and has had problems with her ecm and dpf regen.

Couple misconceptions that I think we need to clear up. First the B57 engine that is in the X5 is the same engine in the Ineos. This is the same engine that BMW has been using since 2015. Second, BMW canceled the engine here in the US for 2019 MY. BmW made the announcement in 2018. Ineos started the design process in 2017 with BMW partnership agreed upon March of 2019. The point is, Ineos knew the engine would not be available to US but partnership allowed us to get the B58. Second if you don't like your sisters BMW diesel, you might not be happy with Ineos engine since they are the same thing unless her BMW is pre 2015. I stand on my hill to die on, buy a 2015-2019 scrap x5 and make your ineos diesel.

 

[Tazzieman]

My n54 had hpfp issues and wastegate rattle that bmw refused to address/fix. Overall not happy with how bmw dealt with widely known problems with their motor.

I'm ordering the B58 and have heard no negatives. So for me the decision is easy. And of course I'm not stuck in the "if only they had a manual transmission" whirlpool of thought.

 

[painter]

my .02

I might have missed it in the 2 threads but to quantify the price increase; on the UK site a base Belstaff model now starts at 69K GBP up from 59K. Call it +17%. *

When was original UK pricing announced, end of April 2022 ? And I recall that original pricing was not too far off the earlier, teaser pricing If so that's <7 months. Was that to be expected ? If yes, then can the US/Can expect for similar reasons additional pricing before order banks open for that market ?(perhaps Spring 2023?) I'd say probably yes and yes.

We then may have a situation where in a year pricing goes from say 65-70 USD to say high 80's - low 90's. And that's without shipping costs.

So for the guy/gal who heard about the new Gren coming, and at around 65K USD I can't help but think, expected or not, this would be to be a turn off.

"Too bad, Hard cheese" ? sure, and I've always viewed this as a wait and see process so I'm not personally put out. But I imagine, and can understand why, some will be, and no amount of justification will change that.

*Subject to correction/contest

 

[DaveB]

Yeah im thrilled by the B57 engine... probably one of the best diesels on the market

I agree, I said it after my drive that is was an extremely good engine and didn't sound like a diesel.
It certainly drove like one with mountains of torque

my .02

I might have missed it in the 2 threads but to quantify the price increase; on the UK site a base Belstaff model now starts at 69K GBP up from 59K. Call it +17%. *

When was original UK pricing announced, end of April 2022 ? And I recall that original pricing was not too far off the earlier, teaser pricing If so that's <7 months. Was that to be expected ? If yes, then can the US/Can expect for similar reasons additional pricing before order banks open for that market ?(perhaps Spring 2023?) I'd say probably yes and yes.

We then may have a situation where in a year pricing goes from say 65-70 USD to say high 80's - low 90's. And that's without shipping costs.

So for the guy/gal who heard about the new Gren coming, and at around 65K USD I can't help but think, expected or not, this would be to be a turn off.

"Too bad, Hard cheese" ? sure, and I've always viewed this as a wait and see process so I'm not personally put out. But I imagine, and can understand why, some will be, and no amount of justification will change that.

*Subject to correction/contest

I was told they are still trying to work out how to stop the dealers in the US from selling above MSRP
They have had problems with the selling direct model I believe, forcing them to go down the more traditional model.
Time will tell and I wouldn't worry too much about the pricing at the moment as they will probably come out with a completely different US model when finally available.
US market has entirely different tastes, preferences and competition to other markets (I don't mean that in a negative way, just a fact)
My apologies for saying US when you are from Canada but you will most likely get the US models

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

@DaveB your totally right - we Canadians get whatever California decides we should get when it comes to vehicles!

I do hope they don’t have a different model for the NA market. That would be a deal breaker for me, depending on how substantive those differences are. I’m okay with minor differences - like a bull bar or something — but a huge part of the appeal of this thing for me is the bits are all the same no matter where you are. With such low production volumes, I think that’s critical for parts availability — the more variation you get in bits, the less likely it is to find all those variations in the “local” Ineos warehouse.

 

[DCPU]

If you had already placed your deposit before the deadline then any spec changes you do will be on the old pricing.

If one studies the old, intermediate and new price lists, there are some "bargains" to be had on the newest prices...not all prices have gone up!

So what happens when prices have dropped, is it possible to have your cake and eat it?

 

[DCPU]

I do recall a lot of skepticism when they first announced those prices. But I always thought they got pretty close to go from 45k ballpark "back in the day" before they even had their suppliers finalized, to only 49k as of May of this year (https://www.carwow.co.uk/news/5433/ineos-grenadier-4x4-price-specs-and-release-date#gref)

For the UK market it's not £45k to £49k though.

For Commercial users (N1) it's gone from "under £40k" to £49k (up over 22.5%) or £52k (up over 30%) .

For retail customers (code for M1) it's gone from "around £45k" to £59k (up over 31%).

Factor in the latest increase for a new order today (still pre-launch) and its, "under £40k" to £55k (up over 37.5%) or £58k (up over 45%) ; and from "around £45k" to £69k (up over 53%).

 

[DaveB]

@DaveB your totally right - we Canadians get whatever California decides we should get when it comes to vehicles!

I do hope they don’t have a different model for the NA market. That would be a deal breaker for me, depending on how substantive those differences are. I’m okay with minor differences - like a bull bar or something — but a huge part of the appeal of this thing for me is the bits are all the same no matter where you are. With such low production volumes, I think that’s critical for parts availability — the more variation you get in bits, the less likely it is to find all those variations in the “local” Ineos warehouse.

Not all the changes may be negative.
I can see the Belstaff editions might go and be replaced with some version US customers might identify with
The security system could change
I heard they are looking at larger tyres as standard
You will get an inverter for sure.
I bet the engine power and torque figures will change.
I really think instead of focusing on the negatives at the moment the North American market has the advantage of getting the second stage vehicle and the excitement of "what will it have and what can we spec up"
The Australian vehicle is slightly different to the European vehicle and has different options.
Making direct price comparisons is not all that relevant

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

For the UK market it's not £45k to £49k though.

For Commercial users (N1) it's gone from "under £40k" to £49k (up over 22.5%) or £52k (up over 30%) .

For retail customers (code for M1) it's gone from "around £45k" to £59k (up over 31%).

Factor in the latest increase for a new order today (still pre-launch) and its, "under £40k" to £55k (up over 37.5%) or £58k (up over 45%) ; and from "around £45k" to £69k (up over 53%).

Hmm…I know there was lots of chatter and speculation on prices since it’s inception, so it gets a bit muddy for me, but I seem to recall IA stating the $45k target officially for the commercial option, and then confirming $49k earlier this year, and official increases coming afterwards — but I admit to not following the EU/UK prices as closely as I figured the American prices would be very different by the time they launched so my knowledge and memory on this is a bit fuzzy. It’s been quite a journey — Remember this thing was supposed to be built in Wales but lots has changed since then with Brexit, COVID and the attempt to kickstart WW3 by Russia being the big surprises of the last few years. Either way…they’re still cheaper now than they will be next year I think!

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Not all the changes may be negative.
I can see the Belstaff editions might go and be replaced with some version US customers might identify with
The security system could change
I heard they are looking at larger tyres as standard
You will get an inverter for sure.
I bet the engine power and torque figures will change.
I really think instead of focusing on the negatives at the moment the North American market has the advantage of getting the second stage vehicle and the excitement of "what will it have and what can we spec up"
The Australian vehicle is slightly different to the European vehicle and has different options.
Making direct price comparisons is not all that relevant

Good points Dave, and good reasons for optimism!

 

[Halliwell Jones Chester]

my .02

I might have missed it in the 2 threads but to quantify the price increase; on the UK site a base Belstaff model now starts at 69K GBP up from 59K. Call it +17%. *

When was original UK pricing announced, end of April 2022 ? And I recall that original pricing was not too far off the earlier, teaser pricing If so that's <7 months. Was that to be expected ? If yes, then can the US/Can expect for similar reasons additional pricing before order banks open for that market ?(perhaps Spring 2023?) I'd say probably yes and yes.

We then may have a situation where in a year pricing goes from say 65-70 USD to say high 80's - low 90's. And that's without shipping costs.

So for the guy/gal who heard about the new Gren coming, and at around 65K USD I can't help but think, expected or not, this would be to be a turn off.

"Too bad, Hard cheese" ? sure, and I've always viewed this as a wait and see process so I'm not personally put out. But I imagine, and can understand why, some will be, and no amount of justification will change that.

*Subject to correction/contest

Not exactly correct as on the old prices the £59k didn't include your on the roads circa £3k and now the £69 does include your on the roads. Still an increase but not to the level you're thinking.