Mud Terrains

[jeremy_matrix]

Completely agree on studless winter tires!
MickeyT BajaBoss' are well liked by many here in the Pacific NW.

I dont think there will be a major issue when you have all 4 wheels a slightly bigger size. The problem will be having a spare a different size. That is likely to be a problem. I wouldn’t do it. If it doesn’t fit on door, Black Sheep Innovations is making an offset spare adapter mount which should solve the problem

Let's hope there's no issues on the IG.

 

[Tom109]

I'll run Cooper ST MAXX; not a true full mud; but they are very good in a slippery terrain in my experience without all the full mud downsides;
Tyre size: 255/80/17 which is 4.4% bigger with an 18.5mm (3/4") lift, as long as fits OK, which I guess it will.
Spare tyre: probably stick with OEM sizing 265/70/17 but change it to a cooper ST MAXX also. A space saver, if you will, nobody will notice

I have had the ST/Maxx as well and really loved them. Traction is basically an MT without the downsides. Only issue I had was they get old and chunky before they wear out - but that was over 50k miles.

My current list is,

1. Cooper ST/Maxx
2. Nitto Ridge Grappler
3. Toyo R/T

 

[AnD3rew]

MTs look cool AF, but for most of us who spend way more time on the road than off road and even less time in actual mud. The compromise on safety and noise over ATs doesn’t really add up. But there are already some who have put MTs on.

 

[stickshifter]

MTs look cool AF, but for most of us who spend way more time on the road than off road and even less time in actual mud. The compromise on safety and noise over ATs doesn’t really add up. But there are already some who have put MTs on.

So true. I'm amazed at how many people run MTs just for the looks though. Its nuts.

MTs are heavier and tougher than ATs, so if you are rock crawling a lot, they can make a difference, with fewer flats, and better performance when aired way down.

MTs are the only tire that will give you decent traction in deep mud, so if you are in deep mud a lot, they are the only tire to run. The Cooper ST MAXX is the only AT I've run that comes close to an MT in mud, but its still not an MT. In general, ATs quickly get packed with mud, and cannot clear their treads.

Other than those two end uses, MTs are not worth all the downsides. Every feature added to a tire that improves performance in one area, detracts from performance in another area. There are no free lunches.

 

[emax]

I'm amazed at how many people run MTs just for the looks though. Its nuts.

Come on, it's all about fun, is it?

I'll stick with the ATs since the tires do a lot to burn more or less fuel. But if someone likes the MT look, why not.

 

[stickshifter]

Come on, it's all about fun, is it?

I'll stick with the ATs since the tires do a lot to burn more or less fuel. But if someone likes the MT look, why not.

Because they perform like crap in pretty much every condition other than mud.

1. Heavier, so worse fuel economy.
2. Heavier, so worse acceleration.
3. Heavier, so longer braking distance - making them less safe for you and those around you.
4. Terrible traction on-road in all winter conditions (snow, ice) - so less safe for you and those around you.
5. Terrible traction on wet pavement - so less safe for you and those around you.

My comments about increased weight are most relevant to the larger tire sizes: 35s and 37s - which are common here in the American West.

A 35-inch Nitto MT tire weighs 81 pounds (just the tire - not including the wheel); a 37-inch MT weighs 88 pounds.

In contrast, a 35-inch BFG KO2 weighs 68 pounds. That is a huge difference in un-sprung weight and rotational mass. Most people putting on big tires make no upgrades to their axles or brakes. I prefer not to be in front of these guys coming down a steep winding canyon...

All these downsides are a lot to sacrifice to "look cool". But I never said people couldn't run MTs, I just said it was nuts - unless the benefits outweigh the costs. As I wrote in the previous post, nothing really works in deep mud - except an MT, and MTs are also better in the rocks.

This is from Discount Tire, if you happen to think I'm smoking crack:

Mud terrain tire pros
Unrivaled off-road and mud traction
Reinforced sidewalls are tough enough to withstand sharp or jagged rocks off-road
Reliable for off-roading excursions in the summer, spring or fall

Mud terrain tire cons
Noisy on paved roads
Less traction in the rain than other off-road tires
Shorter tread life
More expensive than other off-road tire options
Not effective in cold weather
Less fuel efficient than other tires
Usually don’t include a manufacturer warranty

Source:

https://www.discounttire.com/blog/mud-tires-pros-cons

 

[Krabby]

I hope to do what I’ve done in the past - have 2 sets. I ordered the steelies and plan to get aftermarket wheels - I’ll swap the BFGs onto the alloys for every day and get some MTs on the steelies. Did that with my Disco and it worked well. Storage sucks, but kinda the best of both words truth be told.

 

[stickshifter]

I hope to do what I’ve done in the past - have 2 sets. I ordered the steelies and plan to get aftermarket wheels - I’ll swap the BFGs onto the alloys for every day and get some MTs on the steelies. Did that with my Disco and it worked well. Storage sucks, but kinda the best of both words truth be told.

Makes a lot of sense. I've always had two sets of tires for all my vehicles: summer tires and winter tires. I live at 8500 feet in the Rockies. Everyone I know who lives in the mountains runs a winter tire - even folk who don't make a lot of money. I thought about getting a third set, so I'd have winter tires, ATs, and MTs, but then I realized that my tires would get old before they ever ran out of tread.

 

[Tom109]

I have owned multiple sets of tires but with multiple vehicles it is a big hassle. I prefer one set per vehicle. I generally do not like AT’s for the local mud holding issue (they become slicks), that’s why the ST/Maxx was such a great tire. I have a long history with these large shoulder block designs going back to the TracEdge and Dunlop RT. I am considering the Nitto Ridge Grappler and Toyo R/T, but I will have to see them in-person and visually measure tread voids.

Anyone driving on this Nitto or Toyo?

 

[stickshifter]

I have owned multiple sets of tires but with multiple vehicles it is a big hassle. I prefer one set per vehicle. I generally do not like AT’s for the local mud holding issue (they become slicks), that’s why the ST/Maxx was such a great tire. I have a long history with these large shoulder block designs going back to the TracEdge and Dunlop RT. I am considering the Nitto Ridge Grappler and Toyo R/T, but I will have to see them in-person and visually measure tread voids.

Anyone driving on this Nitto or Toyo?

I ran the ST/Maxx on my Wrangler and loved them. Great choice if you are looking for something close to a MT but don't want to go full MT.

 

[bigleonski]

I have owned multiple sets of tires but with multiple vehicles it is a big hassle. I prefer one set per vehicle. I generally do not like AT’s for the local mud holding issue (they become slicks), that’s why the ST/Maxx was such a great tire. I have a long history with these large shoulder block designs going back to the TracEdge and Dunlop RT. I am considering the Nitto Ridge Grappler and Toyo R/T, but I will have to see them in-person and visually measure tread voids.

Anyone driving on this Nitto or Toyo?

I’m running Nittto Ridge Grapplers on my 200 series.
Great tyres and much quieter than most AT’s I have had.
I love these “hybrid” AT / MT crossovers as they provide the best of both worlds and as I said these are quiet so don’t have the downside roar of a MT.
They are great offroad offering good grip and solid sidewalls.
That said they haven’t lasted all that long and I will likely only get 60,000km out of them. I don’t usually get the sort of distances others get though given lots of dirt road driving etc etc. And they are less sure footed in the wet on bitumen now that they are getting down on the tread, but most are I suppose.

I’ll probably come back to a hybrid - maybe give the Toyo’s a go, when the BFG’s wear out.

I’d prefer to have muds on when I head out west, but these are a good compromise for everyday use.

I’ve never had good experiences with Coopers, they chip and tear lugs off much worse than others in my experience and I could never get them to balance properly so won’t go there again.

 

[AnD3rew]

I’m running Nittto Ridge Grapplers on my 200 series.
Great tyres and much quieter than most AT’s I have had.
I love these “hybrid” AT / MT crossovers as they provide the best of both worlds and as I said these are quiet so don’t have the downside roar of a MT.
They are great offroad offering good grip and solid sidewalls.
That said they haven’t lasted all that long and I will likely only get 60,000km out of them. I don’t usually get the sort of distances others get though given lots of dirt road driving etc etc. And they are less sure footed in the wet on bitumen now that they are getting down on the tread, but most are I suppose.

I’ll probably come back to a hybrid - maybe give the Toyo’s a go, when the BFG’s wear out.

I’d prefer to have muds on when I head out west, but these are a good compromise for everyday use.

I’ve never had good experiences with Coopers, they chip and tear lugs off much worse than others in my experience and I could never get them to balance properly so won’t go there again.

Know lots of people who have had issues with Coopers in Australia, lots if delaminations and chipping

 

[CBN]

I have been running Maxxis RAZR mud terrains on mine for a couple of weeks and so far they have been perfectly fine - even on the motorway at 110km/hr in the wet felt very solid. I have run MT's on all my previous 4wds and have never had major issues. Slightly noisey, but whatevs. Definitely comes down to the quality of the tyre.

 

[James]

I hope to do what I’ve done in the past - have 2 sets. I ordered the steelies and plan to get aftermarket wheels - I’ll swap the BFGs onto the alloys for every day and get some MTs on the steelies. Did that with my Disco and it worked well. Storage sucks, but kinda the best of both words truth be told.

I kind of agree with stickshifter. People can do what they want, BUT, we are all responsible for the roads together, and MT for the look of it has a cost we all bear- the cars dont stop or handle well, and they are heavy, so are much more likely to hit someone else, and very much harder than if they had appropriate tyres on.

Like you, I want 2 sets, but I dont understand why you would use k02 as your on road tyre - why not get a road biased AT, which will still do 80% of offroading fine, and keep the true offroad tyres for their purpose? Much better, safer, less fuel, quieter, cheaper, what’s not to like? Built on purpose…

 

[Disco Dave]

I kind of agree with stickshifter. People can do what they want, BUT, we are all responsible for the roads together, and MT for the look of it has a cost we all bear- the cars dont stop or handle well, and they are heavy, so are much more likely to hit someone else, and very much harder than if they had appropriate tyres on.

Like you, I want 2 sets, but I dont understand why you would use k02 as your on road tyre - why not get a road biased AT, which will still do 80% of offroading fine, and keep the true offroad tyres for their purpose? Much better, safer, less fuel, quieter, cheaper, what’s not to like? Built on purpose…

The KO2 is a road biased AT. Actually it does neither on road or off road very well. It is a tough tyre, but clogs with mud easily and skates on wet roads just as easily.

 

[James]

The KO2 is a road biased AT. Actually it does neither on road or off road very well. It is a tough tyre, but clogs with mud easily and skates on wet roads just as easily.

Hmmm… not sure I agree about road bias in the k02, but either way, I mean like the bridgestone tyre the grenadier comes with if you dont choose the heavily offroad opton (as they see it, both tyres being offroad in ineos’ mind). I kind of agree, in that a road tyre and a seriously offroad tyre on 2 sets of wheels are the best, and what Krabby was talking about. As you say, the k02 is not a good road tyre.

 

[stickshifter]

The KO2 is a road biased AT. Actually it does neither on road or off road very well. It is a tough tyre, but clogs with mud easily and skates on wet roads just as easily.

Hi DD,
I've never heard anyone refer to the KO2 as a "road-biased" AT tire. While the tread pattern is not as close to a MT as the Cooper ST Maxx or the Goodyear Duratrac, it is far more biased toward off-road driving than most of the other popular AT tires here in the U.S. But don't only look at tread pattern; for example, the KO2 has much thicker sidewalls than the Duratrac. For many years, C-rated Duratracs (popular on Wranglers) were more prone to sidewall punctures off-road than any other AT tire in America.

When you say this, are you comparing the KO2 to the new bread of "hybrid" tires? The Cooper ST Maxx is actually considered a hybrid (AT/MT) not a true AT tire - so it is - by design - more off-road biased. The new RT Trail from Toyo (I think its called) is another example of a hybrid tire. The KO2 is an AT tire, not a hybrid tire.

Wet road performance: A year ago or so I posted a long review of the KO2 in which I mentioned the two different rubber compounds used (one that is 3 Peak Mountain snow rated, and one that is not); it seems that complaints about the KO2 on wet roads come from those not using the 3 Peak rubber. We run KO2s on three vehicles, and last year - after reading complaints about KO2s on wet roads - we tried to get the tires to cut loose during periods of heavy rain. You had to get pretty reckless to get them to spin (all our tires have the 3 Peak rubber compound).

I think if you google around a bit and read professional reviews you will find a lot of love for the KO2 and its off-road ability: it rock climbs exceptionally well, it runs fast with good grip on corrugated dirt roads and gravel roads, it is quiet and handles well on-road; the only thing it doesn't do well is run through mud. All AT tires clog in the mud and turn into slicks. The KO2 is also not specifically a sand tire; if I lived on the coast and most of my off-road driving was on sand, I would not run KO2s, But the KO2 is the perfect AT tire for Colorado.

In addition to its off-road chops, the KO2 has a higher speed rating on-road than other AT tires; a higher speed rating is not really about how fast you can go, but how the tire deals with heat, which has implications for towing as well as on-road handling.

All the AT tires from top brands are good (BFG, Nitto, Toyo, etc.), its just a matter of finding the one that best suits your specific needs.

Lastly, all AT tires are designed with compromise in mind. Every choice the designers make is a compromise. Want thicker sidewalls for more durability off-road - then weight goes up. Want a tread pattern that is better in mud - then on-road handling is worse. Etc.

 

[Tom109]

The KO2 is a road biased AT. Actually it does neither on road or off road very well. It is a tough tyre, but clogs with mud easily and skates on wet roads just as easily.

Yeah, this is my experience 100%. Doesn’t mean it will not work for you, but I find popular and performance and not necessarily in the same camp. Knowing I need to buy specific tires (TBD) I went with the stock ‘stones, and I’m actually excited to see what they can do!

 

[Krabby]

I kind of agree with stickshifter. People can do what they want, BUT, we are all responsible for the roads together, and MT for the look of it has a cost we all bear- the cars dont stop or handle well, and they are heavy, so are much more likely to hit someone else, and very much harder than if they had appropriate tyres on.

Like you, I want 2 sets, but I dont understand why you would use k02 as your on road tyre - why not get a road biased AT, which will still do 80% of offroading fine, and keep the true offroad tyres for their purpose? Much better, safer, less fuel, quieter, cheaper, what’s not to like? Built on purpose…

The simple answer is that the truck is delivered with the BFG so I’ll run those until they need to be replaced. I’ve never had any luck selling takeoffs so I will use the BFGs. Which, as I have had them in the past, I’m comfortable with.

 

[stickshifter]

Good review of the BFG KO2:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4dTv_jJyLs