Americas Love lost?

[BionicBrandon]

Did you move the back seat? My buddy is 6'8" and enjoyed it.

Back seat moves? I didn’t see that feature. It seemed fixed position to me, but I didn’t try hard to recline. As I experienced it, unless your buddy wears a 40” inseam, he’d have trouble seeing out the rear window. It’s well documented that the stadium seating limits outward view. At 6’, knee room was fine-ish but as to view, it was…OK, but I did have to lean forward to get a full view. It’s not a great view, but not at all a deal killer. Rear is pretty tight. My diminutive 13-year old rode along and said middle seat room felt tighter than my Wrangler.

 

[James]

Back seat moves? I didn’t see that feature. It seemed fixed position to me, but I didn’t try hard to recline. As I experienced it, unless your buddy wears a 40” inseam, he’d have trouble seeing out the rear window. It’s well documented that the stadium seating limits outward view. At 6’, knee room was fine-ish but as to view, it was…OK, but I did have to lean forward to get a full view. It’s not a great view, but not at all a deal killer. Rear is pretty tight. My diminutive 13-year old rode along and said middle seat room felt tighter than my Wrangler.

The rear seat move relates to a version the US I think does not get, which has those seats 70mm further forwards, and more upright. You could technically move yours forwards, but it’s really only to comply with tax laws that require certain cargo space for commercial vehicles. So it can safely be ignored!

 

[trobex]

Second test drive for me. Did the offroad course a couple months ago, which was loads of fun. Amazing. Did the road and highway test today, and it was...fine. No major complaints, but I didn't leave the dealership giddy. I'm very conflicted. It's an amazing offroad tool, arguably the best 'off the shelf' offroader built today. But it's expensive. All of the money is below the floorboard with best-in-class axles, suspension, lockers, etc. etc. etc. Incredibly well thought out and designed.

Above the floorboard, it's just OK. Quieter than my Jeep, but louder than my Land Cruiser and LR3. Driving experience was good. Power is good. It's tighter inside than I'd like but seats are comfortably snug in a good way. Rear seating area is entirely too tight - limited knee room and three adults across isn't practical. Rear seating position is too upright and not adjustable. I'd be miserable on a road trip back there. Premium radio is far from premium. I didn't hear the regular radio, but if this is the upgrade...yikes. Cargo area is smaller than I'd like with or without seats folded. I wish they'd been able to get the rear seats to fold flat to cargo bed, which would give you at least the impression of a bigger cargo area. Having to remove the headrest to lay rear seat flat is disappointing and doesn't feel like you're really adding much space. In fact, you have to tilt the seat forward first, then remove the headrest. Only then can you lay it flat. Before that, the middle rear seatbelt buckle has to be manhandled and aligned to get the seat to flip up. Just skip that whole process and push the seatback onto the seat. It's not quite flat, but close enough and avoids the gymnastics. Seems like an odd design decision. Yeah, I know all about the fuse box and wading thing. Still, seem like there had to be an option that wouldn't take away key cargo space.

New safety measures are being added for the 2024's, like emergency braking and a camera system that detects speed and driver drowsiness. That's great! Would it be a big leap to add adaptive cruise since 90% of the hardware is now there? I know simplicity is king here, but there is a lot of tech that is battle proven, would add to the experience and not going to leave you stranded. I think we'll see some of those added next go 'round.

The Grenny is a unique head-turner that would serve you well for decades. There's just a few misses that might be enough to make me pass on my reserved Fieldmaster until owner feedback is incorporated into improvements. A million miles tested isn't the same as a million miles of daily owner use. If the Grenny was $10-20,000 less, I wouldn't blink. With a few more conveniences and design improvements, I wouldn't blink. But as-is, as-priced, I think it's so-very-close but probably a miss for me, which I HATE as I've been anticipating this day for years. YEARS! I so badly wanted to love it. It's a lot of dough for a badass offroader with few driver conveniences in what needs to be a daily driver for a lot of folks. We all want to offroad, but the truth is that most of us will drive it to work, too. Just make that part a little better. I'm not asking for Lexus, just beat Jeep.

Fun fact: my dealership will lease them to you. In order for a lease to be priced, a residual must be established. The three year residual is currently set at 51-58%, with the Trialmaster being the quickest depreciating model (51%), and the regular stationwagon being the slowest (58%). That means that your 2024 Trialmaster will be worth about $40,000 in 2027. This surprises me greatly. With such a small annual production run, I would expect just the opposite. With such a small run (6000-7000/year Stateside), high margins are necessary for it to make sense for the dealers to build facilities, hire staff, training, etc. so I get the premium pricing. I just hope the value holds.

Your summary highlights many points that current owners have expressed. The interior functional design leaves a bit to be desired - some really basic design stuff.

Aside from an the obvious interior flaws and a few external issues, water ingress for me personally, I purchased the Gren for a few key reasons:
- drive train with all the lockers
- diesel for towing incl trailer and van
- parts that make up the heavy elements of the truck.

I have to turn a blind eye to a few things to be truly comfortable and as a daily driver there are hundreds of better options!!! But for a tough, modern non-Toyota/Nissan/Ford - then this is the truck for many of us. Now im off to the chiro...

 

[FlyingTexan]

Back seat moves? I didn’t see that feature. It seemed fixed position to me, but I didn’t try hard to recline. As I experienced it, unless your buddy wears a 40” inseam, he’d have trouble seeing out the rear window. It’s well documented that the stadium seating limits outward view. At 6’, knee room was fine-ish but as to view, it was…OK, but I did have to lean forward to get a full view. It’s not a great view, but not at all a deal killer. Rear is pretty tight. My diminutive 13-year old rode along and said middle seat room felt tighter than my Wrangler.

I thought it slid back? We did the off-roading together and he’s a big guy. The view is limited but the seats have more room than my discovery and other vehicles I’ve had.

 

[Roach]

Another consideration: my local dealer tells me that Ineos has a financing partner, and they are quoting 10% for 60 months. After taxes, etc. you're looking at a payment of $1800/month...for five years. At that payment, it's a daily driver (if not a house payment), so the driver amenities become even more critical. @Joefly78, I thought about just taking delivery and seeing if someone wanted it more than I do. Looking at overseas markets, the pricing isn't going crazy - "flippers" in the UK are selling their <100km Grenny's for what they paid. This surprises me given the limited production, which means there must be limited buyers. My guess is that there's just not meat left on the bone north of $85K, especially since interest rates are hurting buying power. I may eat those words, though. I just worry that this may be too niche of a vehicle for people who need a daily driver as well as true grit offroad.

FYI, some financing numbers from Santander:

25k down - 48mos, 7.99%

Looking at some local options...BofA and most the credit unions I have access to came in between 5.65 and 6%.

 

[shiv.nandak]

my local dealer tells me that Ineos has a financing partner, and they are quoting 10% for 60 months.

This has to be a joke... right?

 

[Fab]

. Now im off to the chiro...

Ahh… the footrest?

 

[Bruce]

This has to be a joke... right?

That's the finance cats assuming "They won't leave without the keys so they'll take whatever we offer". It's why I am pinning down my own financing before I go take delivery.

 

[BionicBrandon]

This has to be a joke... right?

Unfortunately, not. Fed rate hikes are rolling downhill to borrowers and impacting buying power for all major purchases. Ineos doesn't have "Ford Financial" or similar to buy down the rate/reallocate profit from the truck to move more vehicles. I am confident that your local credit union or community bank can beat that rate, but not by 50%. Borrowing rates are just high at the moment. The dealer said that he's telling buyers that he knows this is high and they'll "have to bite the bullet and hope to refinance later". This is an expensive vehicle and I am afraid that once some reservation holders put pen to paper, they'll realize that it's just not a realistic vehicle for them. But then, it's not meant to be for everyone.

Maybe we'll see Ineos take a page from Tesla and Land Rover's play book and lower prices. Probably won't happen later this round, if ever. Gren's limited run may help hold prices unless it turns out to be the VW Phaeton (genius build, never sold well, cancelled). Looking down the road, the used market is just throwing darts at this early stage. Lease values are being pegged at 40-50% drop in value after three years. Could be more, could be less. I'd bet on less of a drop if rates fall/buying power increases, which they should. These are the risks of being an early adopter. But there's also the prestige of being an early adopter, too. I'm leaning towards letting my delivery scheduled for this week pass to the next guy and seeing what lessons are learned, mistakes are fixed and improvements are made. I've waited this long, so what's another year when you plan on keeping it for decades? Who knows, maybe they'll put USB's in the dash, add rear cupholders and perhaps a place for my phone! Dare to dream, I know...

 

[James]

Unfortunately, not. Fed rate hikes are rolling downhill to borrowers and impacting buying power for all major purchases. Ineos doesn't have "Ford Financial" or similar to buy down the rate/reallocate profit from the truck to move more vehicles. I am confident that your local credit union or community bank can beat that rate, but not by 50%. Borrowing rates are just high at the moment. The dealer said that he's telling buyers that he knows this is high and they'll "have to bite the bullet and hope to refinance later". This is an expensive vehicle and I am afraid that once some reservation holders put pen to paper, they'll realize that it's just not a realistic vehicle for them. But then, it's not meant to be for everyone.

Maybe we'll see Ineos take a page from Tesla and Land Rover's play book and lower prices. Probably won't happen later this round, if ever. Gren's limited run may help hold prices unless it turns out to be the VW Phaeton (genius build, never sold well, cancelled). Looking down the road, the used market is just throwing darts at this early stage. Lease values are being pegged at 40-50% drop in value after three years. Could be more, could be less. I'd bet on less of a drop if rates fall/buying power increases, which they should. These are the risks of being an early adopter. But there's also the prestige of being an early adopter, too. I'm leaning towards letting my delivery scheduled for this week pass to the next guy and seeing what lessons are learned, mistakes are fixed and improvements are made. I've waited this long, so what's another year when you plan on keeping it for decades? Who knows, maybe they'll put USB's in the dash, add rear cupholders and perhaps a place for my phone! Dare to dream, I know...

The Phaeton was definitely an interesting bit of engineering from vw, attempting to prove a point about their abilities, but not really analogous to the Grenadier; the Phaeton was in essence a bit boring, and didnt have a logical niche or proposition, and attempted to sell presitge from a brand that people wanting prestige didnt value. VW fared far better proving a point with Bugatti… The Grenadier has a much clearer niche, extremely high distinctiveness, a ready market in ex-defender acolytes (admittedly not really in the US where you hardly have any real ones) and a strong story/narrative to define and support it.

Next year’s production, starting from Oct I think, they are suggesting a total run of 12,000. I dont think there’s any chance of ew pricing dropping for years, even if the energy squeeze from ukraine war does cease.

how long until you decide? It seems to be really coming down to the wire!

 

[BionicBrandon]

The Phaeton was definitely an interesting bit of engineering from vw, attempting to prove a point about their abilities, but not really analogous to the Grenadier; the Phaeton was in essence a bit boring, and didnt have a logical niche or proposition, and attempted to sell presitge from a brand that people wanting prestige didnt value. VW fared far better proving a point with Bugatti… The Grenadier has a much clearer niche, extremely high distinctiveness, a ready market in ex-defender acolytes (admittedly not really in the US where you hardly have any real ones) and a strong story/narrative to define and support it.

Next year’s production, starting from Oct I think, they are suggesting a total run of 12,000. I dont think there’s any chance of ew pricing dropping for years, even if the energy squeeze from ukraine war does cease.

how long until you decide? It seems to be really coming down to the wire!

You're correct on Phaeton missing their market. Hard to believe that 85,000 were made and it was considered a flop, but thus is the appetite for autos: millions made and consumed annually. With such an appetite, it seems like there would be room for all kinds, but history tells us otherwise. My comparison was that IG is a "super SUV" niche vehicle by design and targeted at a specific buyer, and the Phaeton was a "super car", luxe niche by design...but misread the buyer. Sometimes automakers miss, niche or no. While the jury is still out, I absolutely hope that Ineos hits this one out of the park. I'm perfectly OK seeing the IG widely adopted as a mall crawler or outback beast. More is better and will drive profits, thus improvements, refinements, and third-party add-ons. I want this to be a cool contrarian success story that runs for years. We won't know for a while, though.

Yes, down to the wire. It was on a truck headed my way last week, so I wouldn't be surprised to get a call in the next day or two. It's a big commitment, so I'll go look at "mine" and drive around before making a firm decision. Technically, the demos I drove were a prototype and a 2023, so theoretically, "mine" should be marginally improved. No way to tell without taking her for a spin!

As to 2025's, my dealer tells me that the US will get about 6000/year. That's practically one month of Wrangler production, so by any standard supply will be limited. Let's hope that drives value.

 

[James]

You're correct on Phaeton missing their market. Hard to believe that 85,000 were made and it was considered a flop, but thus is the appetite for autos: millions made and consumed annually. With such an appetite, it seems like there would be room for all kinds, but history tells us otherwise. My comparison was that IG is a "super SUV" niche vehicle by design and targeted at a specific buyer, and the Phaeton was a "super car", luxe niche by design...but misread the buyer. Sometimes automakers miss, niche or no. While the jury is still out, I absolutely hope that Ineos hits this one out of the park. I'm perfectly OK seeing the IG widely adopted as a mall crawler or outback beast. More is better and will drive profits, thus improvements, refinements, and third-party add-ons. I want this to be a cool contrarian success story that runs for years. We won't know for a while, though.

Yes, down to the wire. It was on a truck headed my way last week, so I wouldn't be surprised to get a call in the next day or two. It's a big commitment, so I'll go look at "mine" and drive around before making a firm decision. Technically, the demos I drove were a prototype and a 2023, so theoretically, "mine" should be marginally improved. No way to tell without taking her for a spin!

As to 2025's, my dealer tells me that the US will get about 6000/year. That's practically one month of Wrangler production, so by any standard supply will be limited. Let's hope that drives value.

enjoy the drive. Amazing that you get to make a call either way at this stage, and to drive the car before you’reve paid; that would not happen here. Gives you options.
FWIW, in australia and the UK at least, Ineos were at great pains to say to all and sundry, and especially to correct any journalists that it is absolutely ‘not an SUV‘. They seem to have given up, and maybe no-one was listening in the US!

 

[LC0013]

Take a look at the math. If you do get 7.0%, payment for an $85k build (including my Texas vehicle taxes) lowers the payment from $1800 to $1683. Money is money, but $117 doesn't tip the scales into buy-now territory for me. That's just a lot of dough for speciality tool. A kick ass one, no doubt, but man, that's some adult money right there being put into a truck.

Seems kinda crazy not to have any down payment on a $85,000 car loan. So, one must have an excellent balance sheet or dang good cash flow (I can come up with other reasons as well) to get a loan like this. And, if that is the case, it does not seem that any "tipping of the scales" is needed, just desire. The amount of interest saved by going from a 10% loan to a 7% loan is $7,463.82 (over a 5 year loan period). That is a good savings for those of us not on the fence about purchasing a Grenadier.

Not sure what you have decided to do but, best of luck to you in making your decision.

 

[DenisM]

The ADAS package for NA has been slated for a while and it is essentially by mandate not choice.

I believe other forced “upgrades” may be coming in 2025 - they were attached to the road upgrade bill.

Cheat Sheet

@Krabby
That's just the beginning!
check this out....

View: https://youtu.be/LwEg7BvQXsg?si=px1rHkkMXqUuTcyG

 

[Saschi]

Love lost? Nooooo!!!!

We had a Grenadier Community Get-Together this past weekend in southern Germany with some 70 Grenadiers. INEOS provided us with driving with instructors and decent burgers. It was a great day in the snow and we had a lot of fun meeting the folks from INEOS and Grenadier friends!

 

[MrMike]

Hi guys in this discussion.

There’s a lot on this thread about leasing rates, and that’s really just personal finance, but cut Ineos Auto some slack, they;re in no position to offer really hot rates, having spent a motza over years to get the car to exist. Their ‘partner’ is never going to be the best rate. Ford and GM or whoever are old companies with sunk costs and different abilities - rewarding early peple with a rate is an expectation Ineos cant meet. Get the best rate you can from whoever, its not on the manufacturer, its on banks. The residuals? no-one really knows. They are set low, high, in various markets, we will find out in a few years.

On the car, it seems many of you have a lot of love, and then a few things you really suggest are dealbreakers compared to other things or options on the market. But then you say it would be a no-brainer and love forever if it were a little cheaper. As someone who’s been driving one for many months now, and using it in and out of the city centre every day (not what I expected to do, and we have a city car) can I suggest that if this car speaks to you, then you’re going to find it amazing, and very very engaging and rewarding to drive. If you can afford the ‘extra’ 10 or whatever k you think is the issue, then just do it. If you can’t, then the car isnt for you. (NB, your pricing is in line with all the other markets, but yours is the only one that has a dealer margin, everywhere else ‘agents’ take a small slice. The car is not high margin for Ineos, especially in your market).
And keep in mind that this car is specifically intended NOT to be suitable for most people who buy most of the other 4wd cars. It is not trying to compete with all the things that are normal, expected, even seen as essential by most customers. So it might be that you like lots of things about it, but when it comes down to it your need is actually for a more daily drive biased car. That’s OK. In fact it’s great - you have more choice at much better value.
…..but if you do take the leap, trust me, you’ll have a grin, and a car you’ll likely keep for a long time. Stop sweating features, the thing is spectacular.

Nicely worded @James

 

[Krabby]

Love lost? Nooooo!!!!

We had a Grenadier Community Get-Together this past weekend in southern Germany with some 70 Grenadiers. INEOS provided us with driving with instructors and decent burgers. It was a great day in the snow and we had a lot of fun meeting the folks from INEOS and Grenadier friends!

Potential photo contest winning image!

 

[Saschi]

Potential photo contest winning image!

It was not me, however, who took that picture! @Schattenparker was there, too. He posted the picture first!

 

[zvakanaka]

Another consideration: my local dealer tells me that Ineos has a financing partner, and they are quoting 10% for 60 months. After taxes, etc. you're looking at a payment of $1800/month...for five years. At that payment, it's a daily driver (if not a house payment), so the driver amenities become even more critical. @Joefly78, I thought about just taking delivery and seeing if someone wanted it more than I do. Looking at overseas markets, the pricing isn't going crazy - "flippers" in the UK are selling their <100km Grenny's for what they paid. This surprises me given the limited production, which means there must be limited buyers. My guess is that there's just not meat left on the bone north of $85K, especially since interest rates are hurting buying power. I may eat those words, though. I just worry that this may be too niche of a vehicle for people who need a daily driver as well as true grit offroad.

Two comments
Nobody has any idea what the resale value will be in three years, could be a lot higher could be lower but I suspect it’ll be higher. They have no history on this vehicle, so they are they’re guessing based on 4 x 4 SUVs and things like Broncos, so guessing and they’re gonna take very little risk on leases.
Second: I know for a fact that some dealers who are lucky enough to get some canceled orders, are offering them for sale at $20,000 over MSRP. At this stage I wouldn’t be shocked if somebody got $50,000 over MSRP especially in the first six months and with limited deliveries.

 

[Cheshire cat]

Second test drive for me. Did the offroad course a couple months ago, which was loads of fun. Amazing. Did the road and highway test today, and it was...fine. No major complaints, but I didn't leave the dealership giddy. I'm very conflicted. It's an amazing offroad tool, arguably the best 'off the shelf' offroader built today. But it's expensive. All of the money is below the floorboard with best-in-class axles, suspension, lockers, etc. etc. etc. Incredibly well thought out and designed.

Above the floorboard, it's just OK. Quieter than my Jeep, but louder than my Land Cruiser and LR3. Driving experience was good. Power is good. It's tighter inside than I'd like but seats are comfortably snug in a good way. Rear seating area is entirely too tight - limited knee room and three adults across isn't practical. Rear seating position is too upright and not adjustable. I'd be miserable on a road trip back there. Premium radio is far from premium. I didn't hear the regular radio, but if this is the upgrade...yikes. Cargo area is smaller than I'd like with or without seats folded. I wish they'd been able to get the rear seats to fold flat to cargo bed, which would give you at least the impression of a bigger cargo area. Having to remove the headrest to lay rear seat flat is disappointing and doesn't feel like you're really adding much space. In fact, you have to tilt the seat forward first, then remove the headrest. Only then can you lay it flat. Before that, the middle rear seatbelt buckle has to be manhandled and aligned to get the seat to flip up. Just skip that whole process and push the seatback onto the seat. It's not quite flat, but close enough and avoids the gymnastics. Seems like an odd design decision. Yeah, I know all about the fuse box and wading thing. Still, seem like there had to be an option that wouldn't take away key cargo space.

New safety measures are being added for the 2024's, like emergency braking and a camera system that detects speed and driver drowsiness. That's great! Would it be a big leap to add adaptive cruise since 90% of the hardware is now there? I know simplicity is king here, but there is a lot of tech that is battle proven, would add to the experience and not going to leave you stranded. I think we'll see some of those added next go 'round.

The Grenny is a unique head-turner that would serve you well for decades. There's just a few misses that might be enough to make me pass on my reserved Fieldmaster until owner feedback is incorporated into improvements. A million miles tested isn't the same as a million miles of daily owner use. If the Grenny was $10-20,000 less, I wouldn't blink. With a few more conveniences and design improvements, I wouldn't blink. But as-is, as-priced, I think it's so-very-close but probably a miss for me, which I HATE as I've been anticipating this day for years. YEARS! I so badly wanted to love it. It's a lot of dough for a badass offroader with few driver conveniences in what needs to be a daily driver for a lot of folks. We all want to offroad, but the truth is that most of us will drive it to work, too. Just make that part a little better. I'm not asking for Lexus, just beat Jeep.

Fun fact: my dealership will lease them to you. In order for a lease to be priced, a residual must be established. The three year residual is currently set at 51-58%, with the Trialmaster being the quickest depreciating model (51%), and the regular stationwagon being the slowest (58%). That means that your 2024 Trialmaster will be worth about $40,000 in 2027. This surprises me greatly. With such a small annual production run, I would expect just the opposite. With such a small run (6000-7000/year Stateside), high margins are necessary for it to make sense for the dealers to build facilities, hire staff, training, etc. so I get the premium pricing. I just hope the value holds.

Anyone that spends this amount of money on a vehicle without being able to embrace the vision and deal with the areas of design that they don’t like, should really walk away.
This vehicle is about passion and purpose. If that’s not you, absolutely nothing wrong with that. I say this having come from an old Defender. Absolutely very little good about that vehicle outside its iconic design and simplicity of build, but no car has made me feel like the Defender made me feel. Until recently, that is.