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Land Rover is no more

DenisM

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Another 3-letter acronym no less... 🤣
Confession: I initially misread the thread title and thought "that's a bit rough!" (to call them that) I thought it read "Land Rover Brain Dead":oops:
 
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Solmanic

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Historically the Land Rover name only related to a single model, then collection of variations on that single model (cab chassis, 89in, 109in). Then the Range Rover arrived during the bad old British Leyland days but the original Series 3 was still known just as the "Land Rover". It wasn't until series vehicles were updated (ignoring the Stage 1 V8) to the coil sprung platform that any model name appeared. The 110, County then ultimately Defender.

When Land Rover (or JLR or whatever they want to be known as) abandoned the classic Defender, they also walked away from the entire commercial & military fleet markets they were servicing. Once upon a time Defenders where the ubiquitous UN vehicle, and in plenty of the worlds' armed forces. Now Ineos has a shot at claiming that whole space for themselves with only Toyota as a competitor given Mercedes seem to also be a bit ambivalent about it with the G-Professional. They've already been promoting their partnership with various NGOs (HALO trust and one of the African wildlife protection mobs). Once they are over the hump of getting production vehicles on the road and can generate a track record of durability and maintain-ability, it wouldn't be surprising to see them move in to reclaim some of the commercial fleet customers abandoned by JLR.

JLR are now watching from the sidelines as Ineos Automotive looks like selling every vehicle they can possibly make for the foreseeable future, AND JLR are still smarting from their court case losses to Ineos confirming no copyright of the original Land Rover boxy, 4x4 shape. Add to this the fact that the new Defender is clearly a lifestyle SUV albeit with good off-road capability, but a lifestyle vehicle nonetheless. I wonder if JLR might be clearing the way for a future re-entry into the commercial sector with a new model ironically copying the Grenadier? And what do you suppose they might call this? ... "the" Land Rover?

It might just be the "back to their roots" move JLR need to reclaim their heritage especially since it's that very heritage they use to draw people to their tepid SUV offerings.
They have the industry presence and capability to do it, far more than Ineos did.
 

DaBull

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Don’t be hate’in.
Both Land Rover, Range Rover or JLR now going forward are iconic brands. I have had the fortunate pleasure of owning 3 Range Rover Sports and now own a First Edition 2020 110 Defender that I purchased new in 2020. I cannot say enough good things about my ownership and dealer experiences. My current Defender is the most exceptional vehicle I have ever owned in 52 years. The performance is nothing short of amazing with zero to 60 in 5.8 seconds and that’s with just their straight six. The Defender performs seamlessly on road and off road with the most advanced 4-wheel drive system in the world. IMO it is the single best 50/50 on-road / off-road vehicle in the world. Yes, the new styling has taken time to get used to, however it has now firmly established itself as a vehicle to be coveted. The new Grenadier is highly likely to be the best 65/35 off-road / on-road vehicle in the world. I have driven the Grenadier Prototype 2 at the Santa Clarita / LA Driving event and was incredibly impressed with it. Both the new Grenadier and the New Defender will peacefully co-exist along side each other for their own purposes and use. Just saying, you don’t have to trash one to justify purchasing the other. They are both incredible vehicles that we should all be thankful and grateful for someone willing to invest billions to bring us such iconic incredible vehicles. Am I getting a new Grenadier? Yes, I have a reservation in because it is time for a new adventure and one that I am sure I will enjoy every bit as much as my current Defender. Both Vehicles will bring forever smiles and driving experiences to you!
 

grenadierboy

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well said DaBull - no bull there.

My brother lives way out in the country, plenty of off road and dirt tracks right on his door step he thinks the Grenadier is tremendous but has ordered a new defender.

Why?

He does a lot of highway driving, some dirt road driving, (80/20), doesn't like camping, has bought a caravan & likes the Defenders' style and design.
 

DenisM

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Sad day. End of an era 75 years in the making.
Says us buying from the opposition 🤪
You're correct ..it's bitter sweet ....if it wasn't for Land Rover...we wouldn't have the Grenadier!
Despite its need for constant attention, which I was able (thankfully) to accommodate almost always, I have fond memories of my P38 Range Rover with the Bosch/Thor 4.6L V8.
I hope the "classic" Defender drivers at least will wave to me! (Relevance deprivation syndrome on my part!! ):cool:
 
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tnkatoy

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There are those iconic products that transcend the legality of ownership and are identified by the broader community as synonymous with their market, where the manufacturer is merely the custodian of a legacy, responsible for keeping the icon relevant.

The fact that G-Wagon is so popular is evident that there is a huge market for updating aesthetics while keeping the sole of an iconic vehicle, gees, imagine Porsche making the 911 front engine, it would only compete with the other cars in their range … doh!

Both Discovery and Defender are now unrecognisable in their traditional market, they are no longer relevant, and after losing the court cases, Land Rover seems to have hit a dead end.

The demise of the muddy oval will be added to many MBA courses in the not-too-distant future, another example of complete strategic failure.
 

rovie

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The development at Land Rover was foreseeable. I had very good contacts in management. Both with those responsible for the development of the real Land/Range Rover and with the main person in charge at the time. I remember an event at which Victoria was also present as a brand ambassador. When she was standing next to the white Evoque, I said to the gentlemen: The development must continue, the market is changing, the vehicles must appeal to a different target group, but don't forget your roots. Land Rover needs a vehicle like Defender. We talked about it over and over again in Gaydon in 2008 at the LR birthday. When I was back in Gaydon for the next milestone birthday in 2018, my statement was, "You guys unfortunately didn't get it.“ And last year I told the JLR boss Germany that I had bought a Grenadier after over 20 years of only LR vehicles, he regretted my decision. But we still have contact. I remain loyal to my real Original Land/Range Rovers.
 

Tazzieman

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emax

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Absolutely. (y)

And I think maybe that's a kind of Indian trauma (it's Tata, finally): in a class society as extreme as India's, nobody wants to be a pariah. Everybody wants to be a Brahmin and have nothing to do with the pariahs.

And Robert Pepper has described this phenomenon exactly:

"Because the name “Land Rover” conjures up images of Defenders, Series vehicles, farmers, Camel Trophy, rough 4×4, working class, winching through mud."

The British would be proud of that as part of their tradition. But now it is no longer the British who decide.
 

alvan

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100% agree, and Jaguar was synonymous with sporting cars not run of the mill family cars - their future destiny
I fully agree that this is a stupid choice, typical of marketing 'geniuses', without a deep and historic automotive culture. Pure marketing gimmicks. BTW, don't forget that paradoxically the Jaguar trademark was the transformation of a model name into a brand name, and that it extended over time to all models of the brand (born as SS - Swallow Sydecars but embarrassing after World War II)
 

alvan

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Don’t be hate’in.
Both Land Rover, Range Rover or JLR now going forward are iconic brands. I have had the fortunate pleasure of owning 3 Range Rover Sports and now own a First Edition 2020 110 Defender that I purchased new in 2020. I cannot say enough good things about my ownership and dealer experiences. My current Defender is the most exceptional vehicle I have ever owned in 52 years. The performance is nothing short of amazing with zero to 60 in 5.8 seconds and that’s with just their straight six. The Defender performs seamlessly on road and off road with the most advanced 4-wheel drive system in the world. IMO it is the single best 50/50 on-road / off-road vehicle in the world. Yes, the new styling has taken time to get used to, however it has now firmly established itself as a vehicle to be coveted. The new Grenadier is highly likely to be the best 65/35 off-road / on-road vehicle in the world. I have driven the Grenadier Prototype 2 at the Santa Clarita / LA Driving event and was incredibly impressed with it. Both the new Grenadier and the New Defender will peacefully co-exist along side each other for their own purposes and use. Just saying, you don’t have to trash one to justify purchasing the other. They are both incredible vehicles that we should all be thankful and grateful for someone willing to invest billions to bring us such iconic incredible vehicles. Am I getting a new Grenadier? Yes, I have a reservation in because it is time for a new adventure and one that I am sure I will enjoy every bit as much as my current Defender. Both Vehicles will bring forever smiles and driving experiences to you!
You're essentially right, except that JLR has claimed to baptize that excellent vehicle which is the 'new' Defender, just Defender. It's a semantic problem. Behind an 'important' name, which for decades has represented wars, African adventures, geological prospecting, humanitarian interventions, etc., there must continue to be potentially the same meanings. Nothing detracts from the practical and technical value of this vehicle, but it is just an excellent object, certainly subject to being replaced in a certain number of years, as happens with all objects that have failed to constitute an icon, a legend, to have content that goes beyond efficiency. Wasting a name that was built over decades of special meanings is a real shame. It would be like calling a 911 an SUV or a sedan, which Porsche has been careful not to do...
 

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While I 100% agree with @DaBull (and am very pleased you have had this experience), I have to say I'm sad to read this news and I think it's an error on Land Ro-- er, JLR's part.

There's a human-centric heritage in Land Rovers that is special. For huge swaths of the world, the Land Rover was the first automobile that people saw. Grandparents tell stories of them to their children, and there becomes a recognition and heritage that goes along with that. The reality is that most people who buy a modern 4x4 are absolutely NOT using it for it's purpose - most Jeeps never leave the pavement -- but there is something undeniably attractive about the idea I'm talking about; a lot of people drive a Land Rover or a Jeep because they are in love with the idea of what those things are.

JLR, with this move, has basically said "We no longer want to be associated with that idea". It might as well be totally different car company, in my opinion. Their products are great - and as DaBull said, the Defender is a phenomenally good car for a whole host of reasons -- but the "JLR Defender", with this move, is renouncing it's claim to the mantle or heritage of being the successor of the original Land Rover that popped out of the jungle into the village, often to the excitement and amazement of the locals. That Land Rover would be quite a splash, as would the sharing of candy, medicine, and mosquito nets that often came with them; that special day was the stuff of intergenerational stories, and every Land Rover had a bit of that soul with it.

Over time, the brand then becomes a symbol -- when you see those white Land Rovers with the dust clouds behind them, you know they were going to do something important in our world; people were going to be helped. Like Superman's "S" or the Syrian 'White Helmets' or the Red Cross -- the symbol means something to people. And folks like me are, at least in part, attracted to the brand because of that symbolism. Lots of cars can do what a Land Rover can do, but not many cars bring that symbolism with them while they do it.

At the same time, symbols mean different things to different people, and I won't get political but I am aware that there are likely some ill feelings towards the Land Rover that are directly contrary to the "fantasy" version I've presented above -- the arrival of the Land Rover from the jungle might also mean colonialism, cultural erasure, or resource exploitation, or other negative things for some people. Maybe JLR has more data on that then I do, which fully supports this divorce from the symbol. Again I don't want to get into a debate on the merits of this perspective other than to acknowledge some folks have it, so maybe it's not all bad that this change is happening for some folks.

But the way I think of it is this: if I pretend that every vehicle in the current JLR lineup had an Acura badge on the front, or a Volvo badge on it -- the vehicle is in every way the exact same, but offered from a different manufacturer -- it changes the way I feel about it and, for totally emotional reasons, it does change the desirability of the rig for me. I like the idea that I could be in my Defender and not get automatically shot at by an angry local, because that local knows that folks who arrive in Defenders are usually the helpers. Folks who arrive in an Acura or a Volvo - well, it's just different. They aren't automatically the helpers, and losing that is a shame.

On the other hand, with Ineos aiming at that market and supporting groups like the Halo trust, combined with the practical silhouette that definitely is heavily inspired by the Land Rover, perhaps a new truck will soon be seen as being driven by helpers. That's a good thing -- because helpers bring hope, and I think the world always needs a bit of that.
 
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"Because the name “Land Rover” conjures up images of Defenders, Series vehicles, farmers, Camel Trophy, rough 4×4, working class, winching through mud."

This isn't true for the US market, and if I had to guess: probably not for the Chinese market either. The US sees Land Rover as a lifestyle brand - kind of cool and sporty but upper-middle class and suburban.

I think this has more to do with differentiating the different models (Defender/Discovery/Range Rover) and keeping the branding as simple as possible. (I still think it's a mistake and will dilute the brand.)
 

DCPU

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I think Ineos is just waking up to the fact that they are inheriting JLR's problem owners:

"True offroad owners are annoying; they know lots about the vehicle to irritate salespeople, they modify it, they complain about minor things that aren’t important to the company, they ask silly questions about how the 4×4 systems work, they use specialist mechanics, aftermarket companies start modifying the vehicles and people still expect warranty, the owners form clubs and ask for help, and enthusiasts start waving logos around at Places We Would Rather They Not, and generally behaving Off Brand."
 

Jean Mercier

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I have always known what a Land Rover was, I never understood why people called it a Defender.
I always loved the concept, better than the "Land Cruiser", I repeat: the concept!
But I disliked the failure reputation of Land Rover.
Therefore I always dreamt of having a Land Cruiser, "failure free". Japanese!

10 years ago I hesitated to buy the Land Cruiser, I could, but I still had financial concerns.
I bought my third 4X4 Suzuki. 0 (zero) problems at delivery! Zero problems the next years!

Now, financially, no concerns anymore, therefore I take the risk to buy a "dream" 4X4, with some early build problems.

And yes, I am an annoying guy, I like to ask questions, and to dismount, remount, discover, modify, mainly the electrical part.
20230514_114745.jpg
 

bakepl

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I think Ineos is just waking up to the fact that they are inheriting JLR's problem owners:

"True offroad owners are annoying; they know lots about the vehicle to irritate salespeople, they modify it, they complain about minor things that aren’t important to the company, they ask silly questions about how the 4×4 systems work, they use specialist mechanics, aftermarket companies start modifying the vehicles and people still expect warranty, the owners form clubs and ask for help, and enthusiasts start waving logos around at Places We Would Rather They Not, and generally behaving Off Brand."
True enough and good article by Robert, but I'd gamble that Sir Jim knew this... but perhaps the senior execs who were employed to run the show and who are no doubt very talented, didn't really have a good grasp of it. Something akin to not only being able to talk the talk but also have experience in walking the........ perhaps they could reach out to people like RobertP for some ideas. 😄
 

AnD3rew

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I have always known what a Land Rover was, I never understood why people called it a Defender.
I always loved the concept, better than the "Land Cruiser", I repeat: the concept!
But I disliked the failure reputation of Land Rover.
Therefore I always dreamt of having a Land Cruiser, "failure free". Japanese!

10 years ago I hesitated to buy the Land Cruiser, I could, but I still had financial concerns.
I bought my third 4X4 Suzuki. 0 (zero) problems at delivery! Zero problems the next years!

Now, financially, no concerns anymore, therefore I take the risk to buy a "dream" 4X4, with some early build problems.

And yes, I am an annoying guy, I like to ask questions, and to dismount, remount, discover, modify, mainly the electrical part.View attachment 7812154
What is that you have taken a picture of there?
 
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