I would not build a case of misrepresentation on that. There are use cases where that is both true and demonstrable.
There is more than one route to the HMRC definition of commercial, increasing the payload to in excess of 1 tonne would do it, but then the vehicle would not be a "DVLA" PLG and would fall into a higher weight class, 3.5-7.5 tonnes, governed by Maximum Authorised Mass, (MAM).
) hasn't been updated since 2015 and they are currently trying to decide whether to have a list of every CDV or whether they have a set list of specifications that every CDV has to adhere to.
What is your alternative vehicle out of curiosity and what have the Ineos dealers/agents to say on this matter...I haven't heard from any of them lately on any matters...interesting...I hope it all goes well for you.Basically the issue is here - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/car-derived-vans-and-dual-purpose-vehicles
I've spoken to the CIOT (chartered institute of taxation) who are in charge of keeping the HMRC on their toes (i've put the whole email at the bottom). They've said that the list of car-derived vans (CDVs from now on
Although he did end the email strangely - "In the meantime, unfortunately, taxpayers and their advisers are left with having to decide for themselves how the legislative definitions apply to a vehicle." - which to me says I can say that a Grenadier is a commercial vehicle but if the HMRC turn around and say no then I'll have a tonne of fines plus £19k BIK! Not a risk I want to take!!
So for now, I've cancelled by Grenadier. Which is a HUGE shame because it's built and was waiting in the factory for checks then was on it's way to me
Hope this helps someone.
"Thank you for your email.
We welcome comments and queries that bring to light anomalies in or problems with tax law or administration.
We can advise that we are in ongoing discussions with HMRC about keeping their guidance up to date. While we are unable to advise why the list of car derived vans and combi vans hasn’t been updated by HMRC since it was first published in 2015, we can advise that there have been discussions with HMRC about clarifying how to distinguish between a ‘van’ and a ‘car’ for VAT and benefit-in-kind purposes. These discussions include whether a definitive list can be provided given the vast number of variations possible to base models (let alone modifications to those vehicles) and, if one can, who decides (manufacturer or HMRC) the categorisation. These discussions continue and we expect will lead to better and updated guidance. In the meantime, unfortunately, taxpayers and their advisers are left with having to decide for themselves how the legislative definitions apply to a vehicle.
Please note that the Institute does not currently have the resources to provide a technical advisory service. In addition, providing advice would place us in unfair competition with members whose business is to provide such advice.
If you wish to discuss this matter with a member with specialist expertise, you can search via our online directory which is available on our website https://www.tax.org.uk/ (click on ‘Find a CTA: Online Directory’). You will no doubt wish to discuss fees with the member you select during your first contact.
In providing any response that is intended for general guidance only, no responsibility can be accepted by the Chartered Institute of Taxation for loss occasioned to you or any other person acting or refraining from action as a result of any material in our response. Our full policy on providing replies to queries is set out at https://www.tax.org.uk/contact-the-technical-team.
We hope that helps and we are sorry that we are unable to be of more assistance."
interesting...and i share your feeling 100% horrible feeling...Basically the issue is here - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/car-derived-vans-and-dual-purpose-vehicles
I've spoken to the CIOT (chartered institute of taxation) who are in charge of keeping the HMRC on their toes (i've put the whole email at the bottom). They've said that the list of car-derived vans (CDVs from now on
Although he did end the email strangely - "In the meantime, unfortunately, taxpayers and their advisers are left with having to decide for themselves how the legislative definitions apply to a vehicle." - which to me says I can say that a Grenadier is a commercial vehicle but if the HMRC turn around and say no then I'll have a tonne of fines plus £19k BIK! Not a risk I want to take!!
So for now, I've cancelled by Grenadier. Which is a HUGE shame because it's built and was waiting in the factory for checks then was on it's way to me
Hope this helps someone.
"Thank you for your email.
We welcome comments and queries that bring to light anomalies in or problems with tax law or administration.
We can advise that we are in ongoing discussions with HMRC about keeping their guidance up to date. While we are unable to advise why the list of car derived vans and combi vans hasn’t been updated by HMRC since it was first published in 2015, we can advise that there have been discussions with HMRC about clarifying how to distinguish between a ‘van’ and a ‘car’ for VAT and benefit-in-kind purposes. These discussions include whether a definitive list can be provided given the vast number of variations possible to base models (let alone modifications to those vehicles) and, if one can, who decides (manufacturer or HMRC) the categorisation. These discussions continue and we expect will lead to better and updated guidance. In the meantime, unfortunately, taxpayers and their advisers are left with having to decide for themselves how the legislative definitions apply to a vehicle.
Please note that the Institute does not currently have the resources to provide a technical advisory service. In addition, providing advice would place us in unfair competition with members whose business is to provide such advice.
If you wish to discuss this matter with a member with specialist expertise, you can search via our online directory which is available on our website https://www.tax.org.uk/ (click on ‘Find a CTA: Online Directory’). You will no doubt wish to discuss fees with the member you select during your first contact.
In providing any response that is intended for general guidance only, no responsibility can be accepted by the Chartered Institute of Taxation for loss occasioned to you or any other person acting or refraining from action as a result of any material in our response. Our full policy on providing replies to queries is set out at https://www.tax.org.uk/contact-the-technical-team.
We hope that helps and we are sorry that we are unable to be of more assistance."
I'm getting a new Hilux Invincible X
If you look at the Discovery Commercial and the 2-seat Grenadier they are very similar in layout. The only difference seems to be the black film on the rear door windows of the Discovery. Not sure if the window mechanisms have been disabled as well. So surely if the Discovery Commercial is ok to be treated as a van for Bik then why not the 2-seat Grenadier?
I think you get away with until you don't. Then it becomes very unfunny.
The only strange thing in my view is that nobody at Ineos thought to make sure the 2 seater at least satisfied the test of being a van. 20 odd years ago I had a commercial Isuzu Trooper, the type with the self destructing 3.0 engine, and they had the rear seats and windows removed and replaced with solid panels at the docks before passing through customs.
I'm not sure I understand the difference between a 2-seat Defender 110 & a 2-seat Grenadier?, is there a difference according to all of the HM Governements' various departments in the UK?
Yes. The defender is light enough to qualify as a commercial.
The old Defenders, pre-2016, qualified as "Dual Use" vehicles, as they were under 2000kg.
The windows in the rear doors are the difference, petty as it seems. I believe that the 2 seat Grenadier would qualify as van if the manufacturer presented it for homologation with the windows in the rear doors blanked out.
