Ineos Chemicals in Debt (is IA safe?).

[mcdoogs]

I think the biggest business driver will be the direction of EVs. The EU and UK ban on petrol and diesel new cars will have so bearing on the future of IA.

Arent the UK sales in particular extremely low though? I thought I read that a month or two back, but maybe i'm misremembering

 

[Eric]

Arent the UK sales in particular extremely low though? I thought I read that a month or two back, but maybe i'm misremembering

Yes, UK sales of the Grenadier are currently low, but the sale of EVs is also falling. Most manufacturers are now making mild hybrids and is difficult to buy a sole petrol or diesel car with a big engine and grunt. Long live the V8. Even the Bentley Continental has gone mild hybrid. The whole car industry appears to be in a state of nondirectional flux.
PS, I stand corrected there is the BMW M series with raw power and no hybrid.

 

[Zimm]

We only know he's a nepo baby. The old school, traditional 'DEI hire' if you will

Discrimnatory, Exclusive, Imperious.

 

[Zimm]

I bet he's in better shape, both physically and mentally, than 90% of the people around here despite them being 15+ years younger...

Sounds personal. Is it the mental part or the physical part you're having issues with. Do you feel need to talk?

 

[Zimm]

Actually it's a tactical crochet collective.
View attachment 7887805

Speaking from experience, that shits gonna snag in the bush. She may want to tighten up that weave.

 

[Tazzieman]

Speaking from experience, that shits gonna snag in the bush. She may want to tighten up that weave.

She works in accounts. In Alaska.

 

[HereinDaRockies]

I bet he's in better shape, both physically and mentally, than 90% of the people around here despite them being 15+ years younger...

Because he is a knight right!?

 

[Zimm]

Because he is a knight right!?

View attachment 7888003

So is Elton.

 

[HereinDaRockies]

So is Elton.

So.. so they are swordsmiths ?

Sorry I know nothing about this European stuff

 

[mcdoogs]

Because he is a knight right!?

View attachment 7888003

Heh joking aside those like medieval combat cosplayers competitors must get absolutely fantastic workouts swinging their swords in all that gear

 

[Stu_Barnes]

That makes sense and I'm surprised it wasn't ended when they bought as share in Man United. Silly sponsorship of Tottenham when you own Manchester United

Same. I’m surprised the Spurs deal lasted as long as it did. Doubly surprised it happened at all being that good old Sir Jim is from a lot further North he didn’t pick a team closer to his roots.

Anyway go Red Devils.

 

[SkiBum1]

For those thinking the depreciation of Grenadiers means we got a bad deal, you can always comfort yourself with another twisted logic that is often used when talking about young car companies: According to this thread, so far Ineos has spent $3.4 Billion (I suspect this figure is low) and sold only 20K cars. That means each car cost $170K. I paid a lot less than that for my IG so I got a great deal.

Of course that's not a logical way to look at the investment. An analogy of why that is faulty logic would be a new pizza restaurant that cost $500k to build. After the first week of business they sold 1000 pizzas for $50 each. Therefore they lost $450 per pizza sold.

Why is that faulty logic? The fact that the investment in the pizza restaurant was not fully paid-off in the first week of sales, does not mean it is doomed to fail or that the owner lost $450 per pizza. It was a longer term investment that may never need to recover the initial investment, provided the operating income exceeds the operating costs and the cost of debt, then there is "profit" to be had.

The same is true for Ineos Automotive, provided the materials and labor that go into each unit, together with a proportional share of the cost of overhead and debt, are less than the price earned by Ineos when that unit is sold, then that unit is part of a profitable business model.

On the exceedingly rare occasion when I think about the depreciation that my IG has undoubtedly suffered since I bought it new; I comfort myself with the fact that I have no plans to sell it, and that the fun and memories it has given me over the past year plus and 15,000 miles was worth every cent of imaginary depreciation.

Depreciation is hypothetical and has no impact on whether you love the car and plan to keep it. No one is complaining the same about their stocks and homes, so why the fuss over a car? Hey man, life is a series of ups and downs, you can’t expect to buy something new and have its value stay static in the future. Life doesn’t work that way.
I think alot of people on this forum don’t have a big picture view of life as it relates to automobile issues.
If Ineos stops production of the Grenadier they will have to set up a system to still cover the warranties and after sale parts supply. No company in Europe is allowed to simply say, I have ongoing obligations so I want to walk away from them. That is impossible with EU regulations and bankruptcy laws. We have nothing to worry about other than we are all driving instant collectibles!

 

[Roach]

Depreciation is hypothetical and has no impact on whether you love the car and plan to keep it. No one is complaining the same about their stocks and homes, so why the fuss over a car? Hey man, life is a series of ups and downs, you can’t expect to buy something new and have its value stay static in the future. Life doesn’t work that way.
I think alot of people on this forum don’t have a big picture view of life as it relates to automobile issues.
If Ineos stops production of the Grenadier they will have to set up a system to still cover the warranties and after sale parts supply. No company in Europe is allowed to simply say, I have ongoing obligations so I want to walk away from them. That is impossible with EU regulations and bankruptcy laws. We have nothing to worry about other than we are all driving instant collectibles!

Generally agree but I guess there are always exceptions to the rule.

I don't think legally IA/US has to honor warranty "IF" they were to go bankrupt (thats a big IF). Bankruptcy court could mandate a set-aside but its not a given. Assuming INEOS still in business (not the auto div but the rest of the company) then it would be a good idea for them to cover warranty and avoid the -PR. Realistically though, I don't see IA as a bankruptcy risk...more of "growing tired" and a stop production...a soft landing vs a splat so your point is valid (but keep in mind Fisker who just stopped paying dealers for repair). Same goes for Europe, insolvent is insolvent and hard to get blood from a rock but again I don't think any of us believe that INEO (parent company) is in jeopardy. Would it take longer to get parts (IMO, yes), would they continue Engineering Changes to new parts (IMO, no)....

IF they did stop/close the issue for longevity wouldn't be warranty but replacing a part outside warranty, like a bumper, fender, seat or something that is not required to be replaced under warranty. Typically the car companies keep these parts in reserve for warranty claims then release them to a wholesaler after the cars have exited warranty.

I'm not certain these would be instant collectables in the sense that their value goes up. Maybe for a small sector of enthusiasts but these fall into the albatross category of car collecting or maybe "story cars"....like the Pontiac Aztec If you keep something long enough (think Gremlin) eventually it will rebound

 

[Zimm]

Depreciation is hypothetical and has no impact on whether you love the car and plan to keep it. No one is complaining the same about their stocks and homes, so why the fuss over a car? Hey man, life is a series of ups and downs, you can’t expect to buy something new and have its value stay static in the future. Life doesn’t work that way.
I think alot of people on this forum don’t have a big picture view of life as it relates to automobile issues.
If Ineos stops production of the Grenadier they will have to set up a system to still cover the warranties and after sale parts supply. No company in Europe is allowed to simply say, I have ongoing obligations so I want to walk away from them. That is impossible with EU regulations and bankruptcy laws. We have nothing to worry about other than we are all driving instant collectibles!

Duuuuuude.....

Depreciation is the reduction in value of an asset over time. It doesn't affect happiness, not because it doesnt exist, but because there is no relationship between the two and implying any causation is a non sequitur to begin with.

The S&P 500 has gone up historically at 8% but we've just had 2 20% years in a row. In the past 20 years average home values have gone from 140g to 420g, doubling the CPI. Of course no one that owns either is complaining. Well, someone that poured a couple million into real estate may be lamenting the Invida stock and bullshitcoin he dumped to do it, but being pissed over awesome outcomes that arn't more awesomer, is a bit of mental issue and a problem many would like to have.

I'd be interested to hear more about this magic bankruptcy whereby a non existent company with no assets provides support for cars with money it does not have. Right now, I'm not taking your word on that. It all seems a tad more complicated with the supplier contracts. f**k. People cant get body panels as it is. Not that it matters to me. I'm not in Europe.

No one is collecting Grenadiers.

 

[Roach]

Duuuuuude.....

Depreciation is the reduction in value of an asset over time. It doesn't affect happiness, not because it doesnt exist, but because there is no relationship between the two and implying any causation is a non sequitur to begin with.

The S&P 500 has gone up historically at 8% but we've just had 2 20% years in a row. In the past 20 years average home values have gone from 140g to 420g, doubling the CPI. Of course no one that owns either is complaining. Well, someone that poured a couple million into real estate may be lamenting the Invida stock and bullshitcoin he dumped to do it, but being pissed over awesome outcomes that arn't more awesomer, is a bit of mental issue and a problem many would like to have.

I'd be interested to hear more about this magic bankruptcy whereby a non existent company with no assets provides support for cars with money it does not have. Right now, I'm not taking your word on that. It all seems a tad more complicated with the supplier contracts. f**k. People cant get body panels as it is. Not that it matters to me. I'm not in Europe.

No one is collecting Grenadiers.

TIC

Depreciation - something you use when filing taxes.
Appreciation - something you do when you drive something you love

 

[AWo]

Let them eat fruit: Manchester United close staff canteen in latest cost-cutting

Sir Jim Ratcliffe is to close the staff canteen at Old Trafford and replace the free lunches currently on offer with fruit

www.theguardian.com

AWo

 

[LeeroyJ]

Yes, UK sales of the Grenadier are currently low, but the sale of EVs is also falling. Most manufacturers are now making mild hybrids and is difficult to buy a sole petrol or diesel car with a big engine and grunt. Long live the V8. Even the Bentley Continental has gone mild hybrid. The whole car industry appears to be in a state of nondirectional flux.
PS, I stand corrected there is the BMW M series with raw power and no hybrid.

I've been reading different results about UK EV sales: "Battery electric vehicle sales in the UK reached a record 381,970 units in 2024, up 21.4% year over year and at a record 19.6% market share, according to data released Jan. 6 by the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders." https://www.spglobal.com/commodity-...les-reach-record-high-of-381970-units-in-2024

 

[Roach]

I think the drop that people are referring to is 01/24 compared to 01/25 (specifically Tesla drop 40%+). YoY was up, sales stronger in the first half. Since Tesla is a huge chunk its hard to tell if its the personality effect of Elon vs people have tired of EV (tired = real life user stories, not important anymore, maybe even NEM2 (US thing) has goofed up peoples spreadsheets.

Personally, having a nephew on the spectrum, I get Elon and like that he is mixing it up (unfiltered but mixing it up) I have grown tired of EV for now, love the promise but not on-board yet...then again I have a bumper sticker that says "I'm waisting the gas your saving" (JK, no comments...I don't have bumper stickers on my cars)

 

[Tom D]

EV Sales in the UK are screwed in the long term. I own a tesla, we’ve had it nearly 5 years. It is still a good car for us as we charge at home. But if we charge at a public charger it’s crazy expensive. When we bought it I was paying £0.09p a KW, so under £10 for 300 miles. Now with our crazy net zero electric prices it’s more like £25 for 300 miles. And if you charge at some stations it could be £60 for 300 miles. That’s more than an average diesel family saloon would cost.. Unless they fix the cost of electricity (and profiteering by the charging companies) in the UK then EV’s are screwed.

 

[Eric]

I've been reading different results about UK EV sales: "Battery electric vehicle sales in the UK reached a record 381,970 units in 2024, up 21.4% year over year and at a record 19.6% market share, according to data released Jan. 6 by the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders." https://www.spglobal.com/commodity-...les-reach-record-high-of-381970-units-in-2024

I stand well and truly corrected in respect of EV sales.