Highway drone and loud idle?

[Jean Mercier]

This drone continues to drive me a bit crazy, as I just feel like I'm driving around inside a drum in my new Grenadier. I've owned a good number of cars, but never one with this issue.

So, I've done a bunch of investigating for us. I have a background in acoustics and engineering, so bear with me, this will get a bit technical. TDLR: I have good news and I have bad news: The good news is that I think I know what the problem is (not what anyone thought!), the bad news is I don't have a good way to fix it yet. OK, let's get into it...

First, for the doubters, this is a spectrogram of my Grenadier driving down a road at 65 mph and showing a very strong drone. The Y axis is frequency in Hz and the X axis is time (time is not super important, we're usually looking at like 30 seconds of driving):
View attachment 7869122

Yes, that bright yellow line is a pronounced resonance at ~48Hz. A low bass drone.

Also, this is not only a 65mph thing (though it is worst there for reasons I will explain later). Here is a Grenadier driving down a road at ~25 mph:
View attachment 7869123

As you can see, the same fundamental resonance at ~48 Hz is there even at low speed.

Well, the roads don't have lots of 48Hz noise by themselves--so something in the Grenadier is amplifying this frequency. (I verified this by analyzing interior frequency spectrums produced by banging the frame and suspension in various places with a "impulse hammer", i.e. rubber mallet, and seeing the same effect -- yes this is how they do things in industry.)

So, I set out to figure out what could be causing this 48hz resonance. This is tricky business because sounds this low are basically impossible to localize by ear. My first order of business was testing air resonances.

View attachment 7869124

This shows me doing a bunch of clapping (generating an impulse) and seeing what the resonant frequencies of the cabin are. There might be a bit of a resonance at ~85Hz, but nothing pronounced. So, cabin acoustics are not the main culprit. Next up was investigating structural resonances. I won't bore you with the graphs for the dozens of tests I did, but I analyzed the spectrum of tapping every panel in the inside of the vehicle, searching for the resonance source. Roofs seemed suspicious, but were too high frequency, doors were fine, heat shields were a non-issue, etc. Most tests looked like this one (of the driver's left roof panel), or less interesting. (The vertical lines are individual taps, if you were wondering.)

View attachment 7869125

Looking at all the data I collected, I found only one culprit:
View attachment 7869127

This is the tailgate. It is large, flat, and vibrates strongly at ~45-50 hz. It's basically a giant speaker, and rings at the same exact frequency of the drone we see in the vehicle. The tailgate is causing the resonance. You can experience this yourself by locking yourself in the trunk area and banging the middle of the door. You will hear a pronounced drum effect ringing in your ears. You can also have someone else do it as you sit in the drivers seat--same thing.

Which leaves one last mystery: Why 65 mph? The explanation must involve something on the car that tends to generate 48Hz vibration at that speed (which then gets amplified). Again, long story short, I calculated all of the natural frequencies for the drivetrain at 65. Tires, engine rotation, exhaust, etc., none were even close to the right frequency. Except the driveshafts. Using the axle ratio and Bridgestone's data on KO2 revs/mile, the driveshafts (and associated gears) work out to generate a 48.6 Hz rotation frequency at 65 mph. Yup the same exact frequency.

And that's not the only piece of evidence... If you look closely you can see a "pulsating" effect every few seconds at 65mph that you don't see at lower speeds... (And, just for fun, yes, this graph was taken with the car in 7th gear at 65mph, showing that doesn't change much of anything.
View attachment 7869129

Without going into math, this pulsating is highly indicative of two vibration sources that are vibrating at very close to the same frequency. And to further implicate the already obviously guilty driveshafts, there are indeed two of them... Front and rear.

So, to sum up: The Ineos has a highly resonant rear tailgate that rings like a drum. It resonates all the time, but is most noticeable when going at ~65mph when the driveshaft vibrations stimulate the resonance.

So, the next step is figuring out how to reduce the problem. I worked on that a bit, but it seems like it will be tricky. Ideally, Ineos would have built a tuned mass damper into the tailgate to mitigate this. (Porsche did this with early Caymans which suffered a similar issue.) Anyway, at least we have reasonably high confidence about what is going on. So, no, bending your heat shields will not do anything about this, and no, sadly 7th gear at 65 won't either. Driving around with the tailgate open will (It's possible that applying a bunch of constrained layer damping material on the tailgate could help, but it's hard to say as it's a low frequency we're dealing with.)

I'll let you know if I figure anything else out. - Dave

I am (was) an electronic engineer, so I can imagine the hours of analyzing and thinking: congratulations.

@Dave Rosenthal Brilliant work! Why not change the mass of the door? If it is like you elaborated, the drone should go away if you drive without spar wheel.

And yes, this is perhaps a good and easy next test!

By the way: I don't think I have that resonance problem at all, but I will listen carefully the next times I have to drive my car.

 

[zvakanaka]

I posted something about this previously, a good friend who worked for Honda 22 years is convinced it harmonic distortion as exhaust gas flows through the exhaust system. Other manufacturers have this issues also and is resolved by adding magnets along the exhaust until resonance disappears then welding a suitable steel plate in that area. I cannot verify but certainly plausible diagnosis and solution.

 

[Chadd7]

This drone continues to drive me a bit crazy, as I just feel like I'm driving around inside a drum in my new Grenadier. I've owned a good number of cars, but never one with this issue.

So, I've done a bunch of investigating for us. I have a background in acoustics and engineering, so bear with me, this will get a bit technical. TDLR: I have good news and I have bad news: The good news is that I think I know what the problem is (not what anyone thought!), the bad news is I don't have a good way to fix it yet. OK, let's get into it...

First, for the doubters, this is a spectrogram of my Grenadier driving down a road at 65 mph and showing a very strong drone. The Y axis is frequency in Hz and the X axis is time (time is not super important, we're usually looking at like 30 seconds of driving):
View attachment 7869122

Yes, that bright yellow line is a pronounced resonance at ~48Hz. A low bass drone.

Also, this is not only a 65mph thing (though it is worst there for reasons I will explain later). Here is a Grenadier driving down a road at ~25 mph:
View attachment 7869123

As you can see, the same fundamental resonance at ~48 Hz is there even at low speed.

Well, the roads don't have lots of 48Hz noise by themselves--so something in the Grenadier is amplifying this frequency. (I verified this by analyzing interior frequency spectrums produced by banging the frame and suspension in various places with a "impulse hammer", i.e. rubber mallet, and seeing the same effect -- yes this is how they do things in industry.)

So, I set out to figure out what could be causing this 48hz resonance. This is tricky business because sounds this low are basically impossible to localize by ear. My first order of business was testing air resonances.

View attachment 7869124

This shows me doing a bunch of clapping (generating an impulse) and seeing what the resonant frequencies of the cabin are. There might be a bit of a resonance at ~85Hz, but nothing pronounced. So, cabin acoustics are not the main culprit. Next up was investigating structural resonances. I won't bore you with the graphs for the dozens of tests I did, but I analyzed the spectrum of tapping every panel in the inside of the vehicle, searching for the resonance source. Roofs seemed suspicious, but were too high frequency, doors were fine, heat shields were a non-issue, etc. Most tests looked like this one (of the driver's left roof panel), or less interesting. (The vertical lines are individual taps, if you were wondering.)

View attachment 7869125

Looking at all the data I collected, I found only one culprit:
View attachment 7869127

This is the tailgate. It is large, flat, and vibrates strongly at ~45-50 hz. It's basically a giant speaker, and rings at the same exact frequency of the drone we see in the vehicle. The tailgate is causing the resonance. You can experience this yourself by locking yourself in the trunk area and banging the middle of the door. You will hear a pronounced drum effect ringing in your ears. You can also have someone else do it as you sit in the drivers seat--same thing.

Which leaves one last mystery: Why 65 mph? The explanation must involve something on the car that tends to generate 48Hz vibration at that speed (which then gets amplified). Again, long story short, I calculated all of the natural frequencies for the drivetrain at 65. Tires, engine rotation, exhaust, etc., none were even close to the right frequency. Except the driveshafts. Using the axle ratio and Bridgestone's data on KO2 revs/mile, the driveshafts (and associated gears) work out to generate a 48.6 Hz rotation frequency at 65 mph. Yup the same exact frequency.

And that's not the only piece of evidence... If you look closely you can see a "pulsating" effect every few seconds at 65mph that you don't see at lower speeds... (And, just for fun, yes, this graph was taken with the car in 7th gear at 65mph, showing that doesn't change much of anything.
View attachment 7869129

Without going into math, this pulsating is highly indicative of two vibration sources that are vibrating at very close to the same frequency. And to further implicate the already obviously guilty driveshafts, there are indeed two of them... Front and rear.

So, to sum up: The Ineos has a highly resonant rear tailgate that rings like a drum. It resonates all the time, but is most noticeable when going at ~65mph when the driveshaft vibrations stimulate the resonance.

So, the next step is figuring out how to reduce the problem. I worked on that a bit, but it seems like it will be tricky. Ideally, Ineos would have built a tuned mass damper into the tailgate to mitigate this. (Porsche did this with early Caymans which suffered a similar issue.) Anyway, at least we have reasonably high confidence about what is going on. So, no, bending your heat shields will not do anything about this, and no, sadly 7th gear at 65 won't either. Driving around with the tailgate open will (It's possible that applying a bunch of constrained layer damping material on the tailgate could help, but it's hard to say as it's a low frequency we're dealing with.)

I'll let you know if I figure anything else out. - Dave

You should send this analysis to Ineos. Btw, I listened carefully yesterday on my 50mile drive and my drone is definitely not as loud as it used to be after repairing my transfer case seal which was leaking a few months ago. Is it possible that the transfer case leak was contributing to the driveshaft noise and the rear doors, as you have found? My drone is subtle enough not to notice when not hearing for it. It used to sound like a base hum that would make it hard to hear my music. No longer the case.

 

[Zimm]

Take off the rear plastic panel and start sticking sound deadened in there, or maybe some sandbags.

 

[Zimm]

I posted something about this previously, a good friend who worked for Honda 22 years is convinced it harmonic distortion as exhaust gas flows through the exhaust system. Other manufacturers have this issues also and is resolved by adding magnets along the exhaust until resonance disappears then welding a suitable steel plate in that area. I cannot verify but certainly plausible diagnosis and solution.

My lx470 had weights on the frame and exhaust.

 

[Catpaw4x4]

This drone continues to drive me a bit crazy, as I just feel like I'm driving around inside a drum in my new Grenadier. I've owned a good number of cars, but never one with this issue.

So, I've done a bunch of investigating for us. I have a background in acoustics and engineering, so bear with me, this will get a bit technical. TDLR: I have good news and I have bad news: The good news is that I think I know what the problem is (not what anyone thought!), the bad news is I don't have a good way to fix it yet. OK, let's get into it...

First, for the doubters, this is a spectrogram of my Grenadier driving down a road at 65 mph and showing a very strong drone. The Y axis is frequency in Hz and the X axis is time (time is not super important, we're usually looking at like 30 seconds of driving):
View attachment 7869122

Yes, that bright yellow line is a pronounced resonance at ~48Hz. A low bass drone.

Also, this is not only a 65mph thing (though it is worst there for reasons I will explain later). Here is a Grenadier driving down a road at ~25 mph:
View attachment 7869123

As you can see, the same fundamental resonance at ~48 Hz is there even at low speed.

Well, the roads don't have lots of 48Hz noise by themselves--so something in the Grenadier is amplifying this frequency. (I verified this by analyzing interior frequency spectrums produced by banging the frame and suspension in various places with a "impulse hammer", i.e. rubber mallet, and seeing the same effect -- yes this is how they do things in industry.)

So, I set out to figure out what could be causing this 48hz resonance. This is tricky business because sounds this low are basically impossible to localize by ear. My first order of business was testing air resonances.

View attachment 7869124

This shows me doing a bunch of clapping (generating an impulse) and seeing what the resonant frequencies of the cabin are. There might be a bit of a resonance at ~85Hz, but nothing pronounced. So, cabin acoustics are not the main culprit. Next up was investigating structural resonances. I won't bore you with the graphs for the dozens of tests I did, but I analyzed the spectrum of tapping every panel in the inside of the vehicle, searching for the resonance source. Roofs seemed suspicious, but were too high frequency, doors were fine, heat shields were a non-issue, etc. Most tests looked like this one (of the driver's left roof panel), or less interesting. (The vertical lines are individual taps, if you were wondering.)

View attachment 7869125

Looking at all the data I collected, I found only one culprit:
View attachment 7869127

This is the tailgate. It is large, flat, and vibrates strongly at ~45-50 hz. It's basically a giant speaker, and rings at the same exact frequency of the drone we see in the vehicle. The tailgate is causing the resonance. You can experience this yourself by locking yourself in the trunk area and banging the middle of the door. You will hear a pronounced drum effect ringing in your ears. You can also have someone else do it as you sit in the drivers seat--same thing.

Which leaves one last mystery: Why 65 mph? The explanation must involve something on the car that tends to generate 48Hz vibration at that speed (which then gets amplified). Again, long story short, I calculated all of the natural frequencies for the drivetrain at 65. Tires, engine rotation, exhaust, etc., none were even close to the right frequency. Except the driveshafts. Using the axle ratio and Bridgestone's data on KO2 revs/mile, the driveshafts (and associated gears) work out to generate a 48.6 Hz rotation frequency at 65 mph. Yup the same exact frequency.

And that's not the only piece of evidence... If you look closely you can see a "pulsating" effect every few seconds at 65mph that you don't see at lower speeds... (And, just for fun, yes, this graph was taken with the car in 7th gear at 65mph, showing that doesn't change much of anything.
View attachment 7869129

Without going into math, this pulsating is highly indicative of two vibration sources that are vibrating at very close to the same frequency. And to further implicate the already obviously guilty driveshafts, there are indeed two of them... Front and rear.

So, to sum up: The Ineos has a highly resonant rear tailgate that rings like a drum. It resonates all the time, but is most noticeable when going at ~65mph when the driveshaft vibrations stimulate the resonance.

So, the next step is figuring out how to reduce the problem. I worked on that a bit, but it seems like it will be tricky. Ideally, Ineos would have built a tuned mass damper into the tailgate to mitigate this. (Porsche did this with early Caymans which suffered a similar issue.) Anyway, at least we have reasonably high confidence about what is going on. So, no, bending your heat shields will not do anything about this, and no, sadly 7th gear at 65 won't either. Driving around with the tailgate open will (It's possible that applying a bunch of constrained layer damping material on the tailgate could help, but it's hard to say as it's a low frequency we're dealing with.)

I'll let you know if I figure anything else out. - Dave

Incredible detective work!! What is your profession?
Cheers!

 

[Tom109]

@Dave Rosenthal - fantastic work!

I’ve played with the rear tire cover, suspecting it was the root cause of drumming on occasional bumps (no luck). I also notice a reverb when hitting the spare tire with my impulse hammer (heel of my hand), both with and without the cover. I wonder if a damper could be required between the carrier and rear door?

 

[Stu_Barnes]

This drone continues to drive me a bit crazy, as I just feel like I'm driving around inside a drum in my new Grenadier. I've owned a good number of cars, but never one with this issue.

So, I've done a bunch of investigating for us. I have a background in acoustics and engineering, so bear with me, this will get a bit technical. TDLR: I have good news and I have bad news: The good news is that I think I know what the problem is (not what anyone thought!), the bad news is I don't have a good way to fix it yet. OK, let's get into it...

First, for the doubters, this is a spectrogram of my Grenadier driving down a road at 65 mph and showing a very strong drone. The Y axis is frequency in Hz and the X axis is time (time is not super important, we're usually looking at like 30 seconds of driving):
View attachment 7869122

Yes, that bright yellow line is a pronounced resonance at ~48Hz. A low bass drone.

Also, this is not only a 65mph thing (though it is worst there for reasons I will explain later). Here is a Grenadier driving down a road at ~25 mph:
View attachment 7869123

As you can see, the same fundamental resonance at ~48 Hz is there even at low speed.

Well, the roads don't have lots of 48Hz noise by themselves--so something in the Grenadier is amplifying this frequency. (I verified this by analyzing interior frequency spectrums produced by banging the frame and suspension in various places with a "impulse hammer", i.e. rubber mallet, and seeing the same effect -- yes this is how they do things in industry.)

So, I set out to figure out what could be causing this 48hz resonance. This is tricky business because sounds this low are basically impossible to localize by ear. My first order of business was testing air resonances.

View attachment 7869124

This shows me doing a bunch of clapping (generating an impulse) and seeing what the resonant frequencies of the cabin are. There might be a bit of a resonance at ~85Hz, but nothing pronounced. So, cabin acoustics are not the main culprit. Next up was investigating structural resonances. I won't bore you with the graphs for the dozens of tests I did, but I analyzed the spectrum of tapping every panel in the inside of the vehicle, searching for the resonance source. Roofs seemed suspicious, but were too high frequency, doors were fine, heat shields were a non-issue, etc. Most tests looked like this one (of the driver's left roof panel), or less interesting. (The vertical lines are individual taps, if you were wondering.)

View attachment 7869125

Looking at all the data I collected, I found only one culprit:
View attachment 7869127

This is the tailgate. It is large, flat, and vibrates strongly at ~45-50 hz. It's basically a giant speaker, and rings at the same exact frequency of the drone we see in the vehicle. The tailgate is causing the resonance. You can experience this yourself by locking yourself in the trunk area and banging the middle of the door. You will hear a pronounced drum effect ringing in your ears. You can also have someone else do it as you sit in the drivers seat--same thing.

Which leaves one last mystery: Why 65 mph? The explanation must involve something on the car that tends to generate 48Hz vibration at that speed (which then gets amplified). Again, long story short, I calculated all of the natural frequencies for the drivetrain at 65. Tires, engine rotation, exhaust, etc., none were even close to the right frequency. Except the driveshafts. Using the axle ratio and Bridgestone's data on KO2 revs/mile, the driveshafts (and associated gears) work out to generate a 48.6 Hz rotation frequency at 65 mph. Yup the same exact frequency.

And that's not the only piece of evidence... If you look closely you can see a "pulsating" effect every few seconds at 65mph that you don't see at lower speeds... (And, just for fun, yes, this graph was taken with the car in 7th gear at 65mph, showing that doesn't change much of anything.
View attachment 7869129

Without going into math, this pulsating is highly indicative of two vibration sources that are vibrating at very close to the same frequency. And to further implicate the already obviously guilty driveshafts, there are indeed two of them... Front and rear.

So, to sum up: The Ineos has a highly resonant rear tailgate that rings like a drum. It resonates all the time, but is most noticeable when going at ~65mph when the driveshaft vibrations stimulate the resonance.

So, the next step is figuring out how to reduce the problem. I worked on that a bit, but it seems like it will be tricky. Ideally, Ineos would have built a tuned mass damper into the tailgate to mitigate this. (Porsche did this with early Caymans which suffered a similar issue.) Anyway, at least we have reasonably high confidence about what is going on. So, no, bending your heat shields will not do anything about this, and no, sadly 7th gear at 65 won't either. Driving around with the tailgate open will (It's possible that applying a bunch of constrained layer damping material on the tailgate could help, but it's hard to say as it's a low frequency we're dealing with.)

I'll let you know if I figure anything else out. - Dave

And the mvp award goes to….. @Dave Rosenthal

 

[Jean Mercier]

And the mvp award goes to….. @Dave Rosenthal

Mvp? ;-)

 

[Eric]

Yep same "zone" here - just at the repair at RDS the other week. My independent mechanic spotted the issue at ~5500 miles. Thank you!

Mvp? ;-)

Most valuable player, it is a US acronym, not used in UK and EU I believe.

 

[Stu_Barnes]

Mvp? ;-)

I think for us it can be most valuable post.
One for the list @Jean Mercier

 

[IG Pop]

I think for us it can be most valuable post.
One for the list @Jean Mercier

Not to be confused with minimum viable product (MVP ;-)

 

[Mike Morrison]

Wow - this is what forums are all about!
If one piled a whole lot of gear against the back doors would the resonance be diminished?
If there is a vibration between the inner and outer skin of the doors leading to the resonance could one not just pump the gap between with something like a spray foam?

 

[Skydance]

Wow - this is what forums are all about!
If one piled a whole lot of gear against the back doors would the resonance be diminished?
If there is a vibration between the inner and outer skin of the doors leading to the resonance could one not just pump the gap between with something like a spray foam?

Maybe some sound deadening sheets would work.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Update: Thanks for the suggestions all . Several supplies have been ordered while the work on engineering a solution continues. The challenge is that there seems to be several resonances within the door around the frequency range in question, so it is tricky... Anyone want to lend me a scanning laser vibrometer? I took the spare off, and that might have helped (non controlled test), but the problem didn't go away. (Update: controlled testing shows essentially no difference with spare off.) I have identified at least one component that I believe is a contributor: The rear glass. It resonates in the range we are interested:



An interesting experiment is to go around your vehicle giving a quick thwack to each piece of glass with your fingertip. You will notice that the side windows go 'thud' whereas the rear windows go 'bong'. This is because they are mounted without any gasket.

So, I am working on solutions to damping the glass (or shift its resonant frequency) as well as setting up a controlled-test driving loop so I can quantify the progress on the overall problem (if any) that I make.

 

[Karearea]

I don’t know if this will be of interest or is even relevant but for the sake of inclusion here goes….
I definitely had the vibration
Some heat shield adjustments seemed to significantly reduce the sound
It then seemed to return (always under load and starting around 1800 rpm)
Now here is the completely anecdotal point….
Early morning drive with only myself and no other entertainment sounds, just basically enjoying a beautiful winter’s day. It seemed to not be present at ALL at lower outside temps of around -1degC to 2degC
Obviously more dense air at these temps so maybe sufficient ambient change to make a difference ?????

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

@Quartermaster Thanks for the suggestion on removing the spare. I really thought that would make a big difference, but oddly the spare doesn't seem very involved at all... Alas the vibration seems to be is something far more complex than just the door moving in and out.
@zvakanaka It's totally possible for exhaust harmonics to stimulate a resonance. But, at ~1800 rpm where the drone is stimulated, the engine would be turning at 30Hz, and the 1st harmonic would be 60hz (neither 47 Hz) so I think it's unlikely that what's happening here. (Also changing gear/engine speed doesn't change it.) Driveshafts are why 65 mph is particularly noticeable.
@Chadd7 Yes, totally possible the process of repairing the transfer case somehow put the driveshafts and gears in better balance and reduced your drone at 65.
@Catpaw4x4 Profession: software, with a side of robotics. Acoustics is a hobby.
@Mike Morrison If spray foam was reversible I would have already tried it It might come to that...
@Skydance I have sound deadening sheets on order. But I'm not optimistic... The frequency is fairly low, and access to the inside of the tailgate is very limited due to the welded-shut construction.
@Karearea Cold temps tends to make compliant materials stiffer, which could help dampen things. Interesting observation...

Also, just so that everyone can hear what we are talking about, attached is an audio clip of my grenadier going down a road at only 25mph, and another at 65mph. Frequency analysis shows a strong peak at 46Hz in both situations, and you can hear that very low resonance (like a subwoofer) constantly. You will have to put on headphones to hear it; your phone or desktop speakers will not reproduce that low.

I did a fair bit of work tonight on trying to tame the resonance, but with limited success (best result so far was impractically wedging something between the spare tire and outside rear glass to dampen the glass, which was a measurable, but not massive improvement) So, nothing I can recommend yet. Oh, and I further strengthened the case for the role of the tailgate by running my controlled test loop and confirming the resonance was gone with the tailgates open.

 

[Jean Mercier]

Most valuable player, it is a US acronym, not used in UK and EU I believe.

There are 0 countries in the European Union where English is the official language, therefore it is indeed not used

 

[Earthwatcher]

Funny enough I think the Grenadier is the same or a little quieter on the highway than my new Defender was (with the expedition roof rack and KO2 tires). I’ve found that I gauge my speed more by sound than the speedometer and have noticed that I’m on average 5-8ish faster in the Grenadier so I’ve been making a conscious effort to watch my speed around town. Have around 800 miles on our Grenadier now.

Running a Grenadier alongside a new Defender, both bought about six months apart (Defender first while the Gren was on order waiting for launch - I got impatient!), I'm amazed that anyone could describe the Defender as the noisier of the two. The new Defender is a fantastic car - smooth to drive and great for the kind of offroading I do, mainly gravelly rutted tracks on fishing beats. The interior arrangement for gear and dogs works so well. I like the Grenadier, it feels as solid as a rock, and the on road drive noise is kind of what I'd expect, but for sure it's noticeably whiny. I didn't buy the Grenadier for sophistication but I didn't bargain for all the software issues and generally poor interior - plastics a bit naff, not great storage in front for sunglasses, phone etc, folding rear seat "ledge". LR sorted all that in the Defender. Yes, the ND is a million miles from the original and a completely different look, unlike the generic Grenadier, moulded in the traditionally rugged values of the Defender. We can argue all day about "better" but for most needs, the Defender is my "go to" vehicle. I've had 22,000 trouble free miles, while I've clocked just over 4,000 in the Gren which has been back to the dealers for software fixes a couple of times plus an eye-wateringly expensive first service.

 

[landmannnn]

There are 0 countries in the European Union where English is the official language, therefore it is indeed not used

Not really true. Ireland has Gaelic and English as official languages.