Heater output

[ECrider]

So the fan in my Grenny, whether on level 4 fan or using the demist for the front windshield (essentially when the fans on full blast) in any mode, has a pretty loud buzzing sound. Levels 1-3 do not do it, so it just doesn’t get used on level 4 fan. Anyone else experiencing this?

yep. I haven't found a fix yet nor has it been to an agent.

on the list.

 

[Cheshire cat]

This is really interesting and in some way relatable to the information I was given by my dealer just before Christmas. They have performed the system bleed many times and re-vacuum filled etc and they said the best they could get was warm, not hot, air from the car when running stationary but as soon as they drive it it went back to cold.

Greta won’t like this suggestion but if you start your car, ask for max heat and leave it running for 20 minutes to get fully up to engine temp, does that hose get warm and more importantly; does it go cold again if you set off driving?

Sit rep on our situation, which has taken some positive turns today and I’m very aware that I don’t want to be another cross bloke on the internet complaining for the sake of it.

I get the impression that our dealer has been put under quite significant pressure by lack of coms from Ineos regarding our car as well as a couple of other trouble in patients and they have tried to do a fair job but the lid blew off in my direction this week.

What was out of order was the whole deal about the loan vehicle but I think that is on its way to being resolved as I've now got a direct line to a chap in management at customer services in Ineos UK. He has apologised (for what little that is worth) and committed that they will now either recover our car to their own facility or be directly involved with further diagnosis and repair to rectify the issues. I don’t think stopping, switching off and on, dancing three times round the maypole and feeling up the coolant hoses every time the car goes out is a satisfactory solution. I want this thing to perform right, it was after all “Built on Purpose”. (I knew marketing was bullshit!)

In the meantime he is organising another vehicle, thankfully a diesel with tow bar, to be provided directly from Ineos so my agent can have their demo back. Hopefully everyone will be happy then.

Over the last few weeks I've become so disillusioned with 'Grenadier' and if you'd asked me yesterday, there was no way I wanted it back and just wanted a refund and to move on, essentially throwing two years waiting and a whole load of enthusiasm for this project in the bin. We're going to give it a bit more time and hopefully Ineos UK will be able to restore faith. I was genuinely so gutted and pretty glum about how things had turned out and also worried about how much egg I would have on my face when all the people I told (bored to death) about the Grenadier asked me why I was back driving my old Range Rover!

Hi Job
Feeling your pain however, suggesting that the rest of us think “stopping, switching off and on, dancing three times round the maypole and feeling up the coolant hoses every time the car goes out is a satisfactory solution”, comes across as dismissive and patronising.
Between us, we are working to find a solution to these issues in a practical and constructive manner using our collective experience.
I have no intention of letting any heating issues or other problems rest however, with the help of forums like this I would be feeling more in control if I can tell them what’s wrong and work with the manufacturer to fix these things.

 

[Lord Ripon USA]

Hi Job
Feeling your pain however, suggesting that the rest of us think “stopping, switching off and on, dancing three times round the maypole and feeling up the coolant hoses every time the car goes out is a satisfactory solution”, comes across as dismissive and patronising.
Between us, we are working to find a solution to these issues in a practical and constructive manner using our collective experience.
I have no intention of letting any heating issues or other problems rest however, with the help of forums like this I would be feeling more in control if I can tell them what’s wrong and work with the manufacturer to fix these things.

Start with the temp coming out of the vents
Then look at air volume delivered

 

[JOB]

suggesting that the rest of us think “stopping, switching off and on, dancing three times round the maypole and feeling up the coolant hoses every time the car goes out is a satisfactory solution”, comes across as dismissive and patronising.

Not intended like that at all, apologies if that came across in such a way. I’m merely insinuating that any sort of work around / excuse will not be a satisfactory outcome for me in a brand new vehicle. It must function as intended and the problem can’t be dismissed as a quirk. Poor HVAC could lead to reduced visibility in bad weather, driver fatigue and increase the chance of something going wrong.

 

[Cheshire cat]

Not intended like that at all, apologies if that came across in such a way. I’m merely insinuating that any sort of work around / excuse will not be a satisfactory outcome for me in a brand new vehicle. It must function as intended and the problem can’t be dismissed as a quirk. Poor HVAC could lead to reduced visibility in bad weather, driver fatigue and increase the chance of something going wrong.

Totally agree

 

[MTNDOG]

This being an issue did not even cross my mind when I thought of all things that could go wrong with a new to market vehicle. I won't have the luxury to head back to the dealer every time an issue with the heater crops up. Could we just have one of these instead?

 

[Krabby]

This being an issue did not even cross my mind when I thought of all things that could go wrong with a new to market vehicle. I won't have the luxury to head back to the dealer every time an issue with the heater crops up. Could we just have one of these instead?

EXACTLY! I’ve made this point several times.

 

[Elijah]

Our dealer said it’s a European design of why heat doesn’t come out of face vents only super hot. If you want it super hot you need to go to feet and face vents due to heat rising? Face vents are more for AC.… temped it and was 140°F coming out of face and feet. Face only went down to 90-100°

 

[Jean Mercier]

What does one need to understand? It should be one of the easiest systems to use.

I just returned from Lappland two days ago, Defender Td4, Diesel and down to -40°C. The heating was fine up to that point. Then the windows iced from the inside and the heating couldn't keep up. And when the engine idles, warm air stops due to too low pressure/flow of the coolant. That's known and one can deal with it.

AWo

Of course I understand how car heating works, it is indeed quite simple, you rotate a button, the fan blows harder, and your car heats up faster.

What is less simple is the combination of:

• a rotating button for the fan speed
• a rotating button for the temperature setting
• for sure a temperature sensor somewhere in the car
• the heat of the motor
• the airco
• and ... the AUTO mode that switches on the airco

"Auto button to keep the vehicle at the same temperature automatically"

I would like to understand a little bit better how it works.

 

[AWo]

Then the question is, why turns someone something simple, cold, somewhat warm, warm, hot....into such a complex thing? What is the need for this? Especially if the car is/was claimed to be simple...

When I understand and read this right you need special equipment for the coolant exchange and bleeding the system (until a bush guy comes along with a bush mechanic solution)....hmm....

AWo

 

[Lord Ripon USA]

Then the question is, why turns someone something simple, cold, somewhat warm, warm, hot....into such a complex thing? What is the need for this? Especially if the car is/was claimed to be simple...

When I understand and read this right you need special equipment for the coolant exchange and bleeding the system (until a bush guy comes along with a bush mechanic solution)....hmm....

AWo

I don’t want to get too technical, but I’ve been reading about these things for a long time.
I have evolved toward certain preferences for certain.

Some of it is emissions related, some of it is drivability related, and some of it is market driven. Heated seat, mirrors, windscreen, and steering wheel for instance.
Close off heater circuit recirc, and let a battery do all that until the engine hits optimum operating temp.
Minimum emissions on winter blends, maximum driver comfort until the little squirrel starts to sweat.
When an engine is cold, it isn’t burning the fuel as efficiently as possible. So, the controls want the motor to heat up its fluids as quickly as possible. that is at odds with having the cabin heat up as fast as possible.

So some cars have electric supplemental heat for the cab, windscreen defrost, while they hold back all the coolant in the motor to raise its temperature as quickly as possible.

People want a car that heats up quickly in the cabin. governments, don’t want vehicles on high idle circuits, belching smoke (relative belching, not rollin’ coal, lol)while you warm up your car before you go to work.

Because the diesel relies on engine temperature to operate effectively, it gets even more complicated. They are cold blooded by nature. I’m sure you know some vehicles use supplental heaters that run off diesel.

as they say, it is tough to get all the raccoons (NA critter chased by houndsmen) up the same tree at the same time.

With the right electrics, when it is 54 below zero f (Montana right now) you can get in and go. People pay for that capability.
alternatively, you are sitting at the Petro station at five in the morning enveloped in an unburnt blue haze of diesel fuel.

 

[LeeroyJ]

In my case, the dealer have bled the system several times by the process posted earlier in this thread, they have also drained and re-filled the cooling system with the vacuum filling method advised by Ineos and this has not solved the lack of heat. In addition, Ineos instructed for some dash panels to be removed for physical examination of components and nothing was found. Personally, I think the issue with all of our cars is either related to the software or electronic control panel. It looks simple with the three dials there on the dash but in reality is far from. It is a digital system with fake analogue controls.

I recently sold my 1981 Mercedes W126 S Class, one of the first fitted with automatic climate control. It worked on a few temperature sensors, a basic push button control panel and lots of vacuum lines. It worked flawlessly 42 years later with not an ECU or 'software update' in sight. I think Ineos could have done a lot better if they had looked at the quality and simplicity of Mercedes cars from 30-40 years ago!

I think this part of your post is the key: “I think the issue with all of our cars is either related to the software or electronic control panel. It looks simple with the three dials there on the dash but in reality is far from. It is a digital system with fake analogue controls.”

I picked mine up on Wednesday and drove it 1700 miles (2735kms) through 2 blizzards and a rainstorm with temps ranging from 21f (-7C) to 70f (15.5c) (Seattle Washington to Phoenix Arizona). At first i was very happy with the heater because it was very toasty. But eventually it got too hot. Tried turning down the temp control and nothing happened. Tried every combinations of settings i could think of and cannot get the heat to stop. Tried every setting with windows open and closed. No change.

The only way to make the car not be a complete sauna (but still about 90f (32c)) is to put it on auto, all the way on cold, and then it goes full blast and blows luke-cold air out of the front vents while blowing super hot air out of the footwell and rear vents (which i close). Even turning the entire hvac system off doesn't stop the heat, just reduces the air speed.

It was an absolute miserable first experience with the Grenadier. The snow and rain was too heavy to have the windows cracked, so i sat in a tshirt sweating and angry for 16 hours. The fan on full blast, together with the windnoise clocked in at 77dbs. Too loud to be able to listen to music or audio books and loud enough to drive me nuts on an extended basis.

Will call my dealer when they open again on Tuesday, but my nearest dealer is a six hour drive one way.

Back to the problem, i think the flap that is supposed to close off heat and let cold and fresh air in is not being triggered. Does anyone know where i can look to try and manually open and close it instead of relying on the fake analogue dials?

 

[Cheshire cat]

I think this part of your post is the key: “I think the issue with all of our cars is either related to the software or electronic control panel. It looks simple with the three dials there on the dash but in reality is far from. It is a digital system with fake analogue controls.”

I picked mine up on Wednesday and drove it 1700 miles (2735kms) through 2 blizzards and a rainstorm with temps ranging from 21f (-7C) to 70f (15.5c) (Seattle Washington to Phoenix Arizona). At first i was very happy with the heater because it was very toasty. But eventually it got too hot. Tried turning down the temp control and nothing happened. Tried every combinations of settings i could think of and cannot get the heat to stop. Tried every setting with windows open and closed. No change.

The only way to make the car not be a complete sauna (but still about 90f (32c)) is to put it on auto, all the way on cold, and then it goes full blast and blows luke-cold air out of the front vents while blowing super hot air out of the footwell and rear vents (which i close). Even turning the entire hvac system off doesn't stop the heat, just reduces the air speed.

It was an absolute miserable first experience with the Grenadier. The snow and rain was too heavy to have the windows cracked, so i sat in a tshirt sweating and angry for 16 hours. The fan on full blast, together with the windnoise clocked in at 77dbs. Too loud to be able to listen to music or audio books and loud enough to drive me nuts on an extended basis.

Will call my dealer when they open again on Tuesday, but my nearest dealer is a six hour drive one way.

Back to the problem, i think the flap that is supposed to close off heat and let cold and fresh air in is not being triggered. Does anyone know where i can look to try and manually open and close it instead of relying on the fake analogue dials?

Hawg
I think you are on the right track with thinking it is actually an analogue overlay on a digital system. Now that weather is down to a couple of degrees C, even a drive of 35 miles does not warm up my vehicle. If it weren’t for the electric seats, it would be a real bind. I will be asking the dealer shortly.
In the meantime I was thinking of purchasing one of those cheap endoscopic tools that work with a smart phone, so I could take a look in the guts of the heating system.

 

[Jean Mercier]

...
In the meantime I was thinking of purchasing one of those cheap endoscopic tools that work with a smart phone, so I could take a look in the guts of the heating system.

Don't buy too cheap, I bought one on Ali Express for a couple of dollars, but the image is usually too blury.

 

[Cheshire cat]

Hawg
I think you are on the right track with thinking it is actually an analogue overlay on a digital system. Now that weather is down to a couple of degrees C, even a drive of 35 miles does not warm up my vehicle. If it weren’t for the electric seats, it would be a real bind. I will be asking the dealer shortly.
In the meantime I was thinking of purchasing one of those cheap endoscopic tools that work with a smart phone, so I could take a look in the guts of the heating system.

DCPU is still with us

 

[Boston Boy]

Don't buy too cheap, I bought one on Ali Express for a couple of dollars, but the image is usually too blury.

also beware malware in the app they ask you to load...

 

[beanohallett]

I have noticed my diesels heater really is not very warm, even after a long motorway drive with a trailer, the heater output on max is tepid to say the most. I’m in Scotland at the moment and it was -1 yesterday morning. On my drive to work about 3/4 miles, the heater remained cold the whole time, even though the temperature gauge was showing 90 degrees. Can anyone say if their heater vents are actually hot normally before I hit the dealer with this one please. I know new diesels take longer to get heat up but the output even when the engine is upto temperature is just not acceptable

exactly the same as you

ok with the ac but the heater is very hit and miss...

-5.5 here today in kent

 

[Cheshire cat]

My Ineos agent is arranging a mutually suitable time to have this looked at. The strangest heating I have experienced. My toes and knees, freezing and my shins warm!

 

[Krabby]

My Ineos agent is arranging a mutually suitable time to have this looked at. The strangest heating I have experienced. My toes and knees, freezing and my shins warm!

That sounds like Series LR heat - all you need is burnt shins.

 

[Skydance]

Can anyone confirm if you have the heater set to feet and turn up the temperature and fan speed, hot air blow out towards your feet (obviously). So if you turn it to windscreen demister and feet combo, I have hot air to blowing to the windscreen but cold air blowing out to the feet? Why? Is this normal?

I had a new fan replaced to today because on fan speed 4 (only), it makes a high frequency pitch. Well new fan did not change a thing so dealer had to feedback to Ineos technical.