Hagerty & Daily Telegraph Reviews (UK)

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2023 Ineos Grenadier review: There’s still work to be done with this workhorse​

2023 Ineos Grenadier review: There's still work to be done with this workhorse | Hagerty UK

After driving the Ineos Grenadier on the road and off the beaten track, Andrew English finds there's still fine-tuning required.

www.hagerty.co.uk

The same reviewer also posts to the Daily Telegraph, reviews combined.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/fe...perfect-reproduction-old-land-rover-defender/

View attachment 7802740

 

[Earthwatcher]

“here goes: the passenger-side door mirror failed to defrost itself; the doors on these cars all required very different efforts to shut; there was an annoying whine from the front differential; the centre differential/transfer box didn’t always engage; the differential locks also didn’t always disengage and even if they did eventually disengage they failed to tell the vehicle electrics that they had done so which blocked off other functions; the transferable software for the Pathfinder sat nav failed to transfer; and the windscreen wipers which left the top half of the windscreen dirty and the washers didn’t squirt enough screen wash and the meagre amount of fluid they did squirt was aimed at the wrong place; oh and the non-existent aerodynamics meant the side screen quickly became opaque with road dirt so you couldn’t see the door mirrors.”

Shoot the messenger why don’t you, but don’t say he didn’t list the faults. This was a comprehensive and detailed review packed with figures. He’s a knowledgable hack. It’s a brand new-to-market car, bound to have faults and hopefully they’ll be fixed. In time for early orderers? We’ll see.

 

[PC01]

“here goes: the passenger-side door mirror failed to defrost itself; the doors on these cars all required very different efforts to shut; there was an annoying whine from the front differential; the centre differential/transfer box didn’t always engage; the differential locks also didn’t always disengage and even if they did eventually disengage they failed to tell the vehicle electrics that they had done so which blocked off other functions; the transferable software for the Pathfinder sat nav failed to transfer; and the windscreen wipers which left the top half of the windscreen dirty and the washers didn’t squirt enough screen wash and the meagre amount of fluid they did squirt was aimed at the wrong place; oh and the non-existent aerodynamics meant the side screen quickly became opaque with road dirt so you couldn’t see the door mirrors.”

Shoot the messenger why don’t you, but don’t say he didn’t list the faults. This was a comprehensive and detailed review packed with figures. He’s a knowledgable hack. It’s a brand new-to-market car, bound to have faults and hopefully they’ll be fixed. In time for early orderers? We’ll see.

Bit late for fixing any of those issues with the first cars already arriving.
I don't understand why these weren't picked up in the "extensive" pre testing, some of which sound obvious?

 

[emax]

The good thing is that Ineos is now warned to "work harder" - to put it in marketing language. If there really are deficiencies or glitches, they will certainly respond.

But the report sounds a bit biased. Normally, an auto journalist would be excited to drive such an unusual vehicle. Not that I expect him to be overly positive. But I miss any enthusiasm - which to me indicates a rather guarded attitude toward the Grenadier.

 

[ECrider]

“here goes: the passenger-side door mirror failed to defrost itself; the doors on these cars all required very different efforts to shut; there was an annoying whine from the front differential; the centre differential/transfer box didn’t always engage; the differential locks also didn’t always disengage and even if they did eventually disengage they failed to tell the vehicle electrics that they had done so which blocked off other functions; the transferable software for the Pathfinder sat nav failed to transfer; and the windscreen wipers which left the top half of the windscreen dirty and the washers didn’t squirt enough screen wash and the meagre amount of fluid they did squirt was aimed at the wrong place; oh and the non-existent aerodynamics meant the side screen quickly became opaque with road dirt so you couldn’t see the door mirrors.”

Shoot the messenger why don’t you, but don’t say he didn’t list the faults. This was a comprehensive and detailed review packed with figures. He’s a knowledgable hack. It’s a brand new-to-market car, bound to have faults and hopefully they’ll be fixed. In time for early orderers? We’ll see.

I stand corrected then, if these were indeed ALL of the faults to which he was referring to then fair enough. Windscreen jet alteration with a safety pin I guess I can handle!

 

[Tazzieman]

Windscreen jet alteration with a safety pin I guess I can handle!

That shouldn't void the warranty, as long as you use the Ineos pin.

 

[ECrider]

That shouldn't void the warranty, as long as you use the Ineos pin.

This is exactly why this forum exists, I was close to losing my 5 year warranty.

1 of 20 down....

 

[Eric]

Bit late for fixing any of those issues with the first cars already arriving.
I don't understand why these weren't picked up in the "extensive" pre testing, some of which sound obvious?

With the first cars arriving I wonder how many "recalls" there may be for upgrades, as opposed to a full safety recall status. Or will there be an opportunity for upgrades if the car receives its service at an Ineos Agent

 

[DaveB]

“here goes: the passenger-side door mirror failed to defrost itself; the doors on these cars all required very different efforts to shut; there was an annoying whine from the front differential; the centre differential/transfer box didn’t always engage; the differential locks also didn’t always disengage and even if they did eventually disengage they failed to tell the vehicle electrics that they had done so which blocked off other functions; the transferable software for the Pathfinder sat nav failed to transfer; and the windscreen wipers which left the top half of the windscreen dirty and the washers didn’t squirt enough screen wash and the meagre amount of fluid they did squirt was aimed at the wrong place; oh and the non-existent aerodynamics meant the side screen quickly became opaque with road dirt so you couldn’t see the door mirrors.”

Shoot the messenger why don’t you, but don’t say he didn’t list the faults. This was a comprehensive and detailed review packed with figures. He’s a knowledgable hack. It’s a brand new-to-market car, bound to have faults and hopefully they’ll be fixed. In time for early orderers? We’ll see.

Why didn't the other reviewers have the same issues?
He really must have been given a Monday or Friday car.

 

[bemax]

Why didn't the other reviewers have the same issues?
He really must have been given a Monday or Friday car.

Because maybe he summed up all faults of all cars.

 

[MrMike]

I think a few of them hit the nail on the head.
It isn't a car
It isn't an SUV
Don't expect it to handle like either
It is a truck.
Expect it to handle like one and you may be pleasantly surprised.

My thoughts exactly, its built differently so expect a different experience. It's (thankfully) not like a new Defender. Never was designed to be.

 

[jamaca22]

Review needs to be taken seriously though. Maybe not a fan but English seems quite reluctant to admit that the new Defender beats the Grenadier all ways up except not looking like the old Defender - all the figures are there as proof, yet he says “on paper” as if it doesn’t reflect reality. No wonder all the Grenadier PR and marketing/test drives have avoided on road driving. Everything has been somewhat rose tinted up to now and this brings us down to earth with a bump. The Grenadier looks good and no doubt will be good, but it’s not a car made in heaven.

My view is that was never designed to compete against the new Defender, the Grenadair is not a life style SUV. It's designed for purpose, unless you review against that purpose then you miss the point.

 

[Jeremy996]

One has to admire Mr English's business acumen if not his prose; that is the same review as the one for Hagety, save for the rivals at the bottom.

 

[stickshifter]

Hagerty's observation regarding the vagueness of the steering in the straight ahead position on the highway is reminiscent of my RRP38. It also had the power assisted recirculating ball arrangement. (I was able to improve this somewhat by slightly increasing the castor which strengthened the self-centering). His comment that it's a deliberate feature to meet German autobahn requirements seems somewhat "esoteric"... Might it be to prevent drivers from over-correcting at speed? I'm wondering if any of our German colleagues on this forum might be able to comment. (Otherwise I'm thinking it's a BS answer from an Ineos engineer ...would they do that in the spirit of transparency?

Yeah, that is BS. The vagueness of the steering is a consequence of recirculating ball steering (RBS). Typically, the vagueness disappears when the steering is weighted (i.e. when you are in the act of making a turn). RBS is robust, and designed to absorb shocks to the steering that you get when bouncing around off road. You still need to drive thumbs up, but RBS is by far smoother in rough terrain than rack-and-pinion or other steering set-ups. How much play you get in the steering wheel, is the key question.

Its hard to quantify an acceptable amount of vagueness, and everyone will also have their own personal standard for what is - and is not - acceptable. This makes it hard to have conversations on the topic! Its even harder when you are talking to Jeep owners. Because of poor quality control, some Wranglers have more play, and some have less play in the steering wheel (sometimes the suspension is not properly torqued from the factory, and everything just needs to be torqued to spec). Combine that with new Jeep buyers who have never owned a true 4x4, and you get all kinds of confusion.

But here is where things get more complicated: you can eliminate most of the vagueness in RBS with the right components.

I bent the front axle housing in my Wrangler, and replaced it with a Dynatrac ProRock 44, with RCV axle shafts, Dynatrac ball joints, and aftermarket steering components from Synergy (drag link, tie rod, track bar), and all new bushings. After that, the Jeep handled like a sports car - close to zero play in the steering wheel. I also upgraded the steering stabilizer, which seemed to absorb 95% of the shocks to the steering wheel you get when off-road. So the steering was tightened up, and I didn't seem to lose the benefit of RBS off road. EDIT: okay, maybe not a "sports car" but like a Jeep-version of a sports car.

So this leaves me wondering - just how much vagueness in the Grenadier steering are we talking about? We won't know until we drive it for ourselves. Secondly, can the vagueness be eliminated while retaining the benefits of RBS? And third, if the answer to the second question is "yes", I'd like to talk to an Ineos engineer and listen to what they have to say.

 

[stickshifter]

To be honest, I think all comparisons to the new Defender are a waste of time. The new Defender is really an LR5 (Discovery 5), that has been upgraded in its 5th edition to be more off-road capable than the LR4. Of course this LR5 will handle heaps better than the Grenadier on road, because it has sold out off-road durability for on road comfort and performance. That's okay, its an LR5. Furthermore, what the LR5 can do off road - when it is fully functional - is actually irrelevant, because you don't know how often it is going to be fully functional. You buy a Grenadier to perform well off road - not just today, and not just tomorrow - but when you are days from a paved road, and the shit has been hitting the fan. You buy a Grenadier because it will start every morning, no matter being ridden hard and put away wet the day before, and the day before that, and the day before that. You buy a Grenadier because it will grind through a difficult track in ten years, and in 20 years. Anyone want to trust this new LR5 under those circumstances?

 

[stickshifter]

Put another way - when you compare a new Defender to the Grenadier you are essentially comparing something you can evaluate (the crisp handling and on road refinement of the Defender's independent front suspension and - probably - its air suspension - if so equipped) to something you cannot evaluate (the long term durability and reliability that comes with the Grenadier's heavy-duty chassis, solid axles, and minimal electronics). When buying a Grenadier, you are trading one for the other. At least - it is our expectation that we are getting long term reliability and durability. If you don't go into that choice eyes wide open, that's on you.

 

[JOB]

You buy a Grenadier because it will start every morning, no matter being ridden hard and put away wet the day before, and the day before that, and the day before that. You buy a Grenadier because it will grind through a difficult track in ten years, and in 20 years.

We live in hope.

 

[Earthwatcher]

To be honest, I think all comparisons to the new Defender are a waste of time. The new Defender is really an LR5 (Discovery 5), that has been upgraded in its 5th edition to be more off-road capable than the LR4. Of course this LR5 will handle heaps better than the Grenadier on road, because it has sold out off-road durability for on road comfort and performance. That's okay, its an LR5. Furthermore, what the LR5 can do off road - when it is fully functional - is actually irrelevant, because you don't know how often it is going to be fully functional. You buy a Grenadier to perform well off road - not just today, and not just tomorrow - but when you are days from a paved road, and the shit has been hitting the fan. You buy a Grenadier because it will start every morning, no matter being ridden hard and put away wet the day before, and the day before that, and the day before that. You buy a Grenadier because it will grind through a difficult track in ten years, and in 20 years. Anyone want to trust this new LR5 under those circumstances?

My niece worked for JLR when they were busting a gut on the new Defender. A lot of sweat and expertise went in to it. That it was late arriving and that it didn't look like the old Defender put an awful lot of noses out of joint, though not so much that they couldn't look down them at the final product. I think they've got the new Defender right and that it's time to cut JLR some slack. The amount of prejudice I see - stuff about yummy mummies and Chelsea tractors. One could be just as disparaging about the greenlaning weekend warriors with their giant wheels and CB radios but each to their own. I appreciate that there's a cult around the old Defender, a club to which new Defenders are not invited. It's different in Oz and Africa, but the vast majority of UK Grenadier owners will not be too unlike owners of the new Defender - shooters, fishers, outdoorsy types and, yes, probably some North London city types with weekend cottages in the Cotswolds. I don't plan to cross the Sahara in a Defender or a Grenadier. But I will be undertaking several roundtrips north each year of 1,500 to 2,000 miles each with some off-roading but nothing too silly. The question of off-road durability is a valid one for those who are driving constantly off road. But who are these people in the UK? And what is off-road? A muddy rutted farm track? I do that every day, no big deal. Most of us do not live at the extremes. Then there's the pick-up truck market. Can the Grenadier make inroads there? Possibly, but I believe that most prospective Grenadier owners are Defender and Discovery refuseniks, so comparisons with these vehicles are valid in my view.

 

[stickshifter]

My niece worked for JLR when they were busting a gut on the new Defender. A lot of sweat and expertise went in to it. That it was late arriving and that it didn't look like the old Defender put an awful lot of noses out of joint, though not so much that they couldn't look down them at the final product. I think they've got the new Defender right and that it's time to cut JLR some slack. The amount of prejudice I see - stuff about yummy mummies and Chelsea tractors. One could be just as disparaging about the greenlaning weekend warriors with their giant wheels and CB radios but each to their own. I appreciate that there's a cult around the old Defender, a club to which new Defenders are not invited. It's different in Oz and Africa, but the vast majority of UK Grenadier owners will not be too unlike owners of the new Defender - shooters, fishers, outdoorsy types and, yes, probably some North London city types with weekend cottages in the Cotswolds. I don't plan to cross the Sahara in a Defender or a Grenadier. But I will be undertaking several roundtrips north each year of 1,500 to 2,000 miles each with some off-roading but nothing too silly. The question of off-road durability is a valid one for those who are driving constantly off road. But who are these people in the UK? And what is off-road? A muddy rutted farm track? I do that every day, no big deal. Most of us do not live at the extremes. Then there's the pick-up truck market. Can the Grenadier make inroads there? Possibly, but I believe that most prospective Grenadier owners are Defender and Discovery refuseniks, so comparisons with these vehicles are valid in my view.

I actually agree with everything you have written - and sorry if I sounded disparaging about the new Defender. It is obviously excellent off road, and will drive circles around the Grenadier on road. The thing is - we are both correct. JLR did what they did with the new Defender for all the reasons you present. And that makes a ton of market sense. But what I said is also true - it is really dependent on electronics and air suspension, and how that will hold up under prolonged rough use is unknowable, but almost certainly not as well as a more analogue vehicle. But the reality is, more people will be happy with the new Defender than with a Grenadier for the type of driving that they do. But - in theory - the analogue Grenadier should rarely leave you stranded, while I remain deeply skeptical about the reliability of computer-controlled off-road systems, and air suspension.

 

[bemax]

It’s in those discourses like the one above where you can see the big advantage of a forum like this. People from all over the world sharing (parts) of the same idea. The discussion stays friendly and there is the will at least to try to understand what someone might mean.
For me it is really an enrichment of my (digital) live.
Thanks Stu for making this up!

 

[tartan shepherd]

I would personally be pretty selective with some of the mainstream media motoring reviews. Just consider their lives, never owning many vehicles, driving lots for very short periods of time and always having to try to sound cool and relevant as they split hairs over...in all honesty very little. Made worst those who are just article syndication factories!