Grenadier Weight

[Robbedoes]

Hi, I am new to this forum and am wondering if anyone knows why the Grenadier ( a  relatively no frills car) weighs so much? The  5 seater/diesel (my choice) weights 2700+ kg , almost as much as the Patrol Y62 which is a (much) bigger luxurious vehicle with a V8. The Petrol version is 80 kg lighter, but that is still a hefty weight. I could not find any discussion on this, but if there is my apologies.

 

[emax]

It's a rock solid build.

The axles and the ladder frame are massive.  And look (for example) at the roof: This is not just a simple tin cover, but a sophisticated construction. You find this all over the car, and it sums up.

But I agree, it's a really heavy beast.

 

[rovie]

The mass is not exceptional. Previously, this quality was in many vehicles. 

 

[Robbedoes]

Thanks, I am relatively new to 4wd but it seems to have all of these competing requirements. You want "Good clearance, bigger tires, lift" but also a "Low centre of gravity". You want a "Solid build (which adds weight)" but also "less weight for better performance, fuel consumption and range".  It's great to have a solidly build vehicle but just maybe they have over-engineered the construction a tad too much (for the intended use). Again, it's a difficult balance. 

 

[emax]

> a tad too much (for the intended use)

It depends on what one's intent is. ?

 

[Paachi]

I would argue that the over engineering in the Grenadier is in the right places I.e body..aluminum but double walled, stout frame, beefy axles, tremec xfer  case, strong doors which can carry 110 kilos each, a roof that can carry amazing amount of static and dynamic load. These are things you don’t want them skimping on. Things like leather, overt number of cpus, whiz bang feature laden electronics, 15 speakers, etc.  is where it should be decontented. Now these features don’t add crazy amount of weight but I would say still a ~100 lbs saved. Now the Grenadier being a modern car still has to accommodate for modern safety needs like air bags and crash protection. Those things add serious weight  
Let’s look at 3 examples for comparison

1. LC200: The 2021 model weighed ~5800 lbs. While it was a very high quality build I’d argue that there are some places where the Grenadier pips it for beefiness. No F&R lockers or metal bumpers. Plus the LC doesn’t have a heavy front axle. Plus I don’t know if this weight is wet or dry weight
2. Jeep Wrangler Rubicon 2021: The Jeep weighs 4450 lbs. Not as robustly built, the roof isn’t even a sealed affair, very low payload. By the time you beef up the Jeep to Grenadier levels you will be looking at 5000lbs weight and still poor payload and interior space. Similar to the LC I don’t know if this is a wet or dry weight. Jeep and most manufacturers are notorious in not being clear on how they specify weight and payload
3. G Wagon: I can give a bit more hands on experience with my 1997 diesel G. Arguably the most apples to apples comparison due to the Magna connection. Mine weighs 5440 lbs with 90% tank, all fluids, a half sleeping platform and no driver. That leaves me with a payload balance of 1500 lbs. It has metal bumpers, triple locked and solid axles F&R and arguably almost very similar dimensionally to the Grenadier. It doesn’t have remotely the same degree of active safety as the Grenadier. 
As you can see the Grenadier isn’t that heavy or out of the ballpark when compared to similar peers. I’d argue that through some smart material and componentry choices they have actually invested the weight in the right areas like frame, body and axles. 

 

[rovie]

I agree wholeheartedly, Paachi. That's why I think the moderate fuel consumption is appropriate. My Range Rover takes a bit more.

 

[DaveB]

I am surprised people keep complaining about the terrible fuel consumption figures. 
Anyone even slightly interested in fuel economy figures will option the diesel (sorry USA) forgetting the price per litre argument as we are talking economy not cost. 
11.7 litres/100kms combined city highway consumption is pretty good for a large off-road vehicle. 
I am guessing you should get 7-8L /100km on the highway and probably 15-18 l/100km around town. 
My current vehicle gets around 18 L/100km around town and under 5 l/100km on the highway.
This of course depends on how much unnecessary rubbish you load it up with.   

 

[emax]

11.7 litres/100kms combined city highway consumption is pretty good for a large off-road vehicle. 
I am guessing you should get 7-8L /100km on the highway and probably 15-18 l/100km around town.

Absolutely agree. 15-18l/100km is however a lot, but three tons take their toll.

It is in general the braking which costs the fuel. If you accelerate, you do of course need fuel, but you get something back: velocity. So you exchange fuel for kinetic energy. However, if you brake, you simply destroy the energy, it's gone forever. And the more mass you have accelerated the more energy will be converted to heat. And that's of course a function of mass.

That's why I always try to avoid braking as much as possible, i.e.: I try to adopt my velocity to what's ahead. A sharp curve - let it roll in time. Same goes for red lights, street crossings and all the traffic around you. Within a city this is often impossible, and thus the frequent braking wastes everything you have invested before.

 

[grenadierboy]

Yes - agree emax but also in city driving to some degree.

I am always looking way ahead - traffic lights change to red - off the gas and coast/roll the 300 meters to the red light.

Annoys some drivers behind me - as they typically like to charge up to the red lights and brake hard at the last second!

 

[grenadierboy]

[QUOTE username=Paachi userid=8372535 postid=1332767577]I would argue that the over engineering in the Grenadier is in the right places I.e body..aluminum but double walled, stout frame, beefy axles, tremec xfer  case, strong doors which can carry 110 kilos each, a roof that can carry amazing amount of static and dynamic load. These are things you don’t want them skimping on. Things like leather, overt number of cpus, whiz bang feature laden electronics, 15 speakers, etc.  is where it should be decontented. Now these features don’t add crazy amount of weight but I would say still a ~100 lbs saved. Now the Grenadier being a modern car still has to accommodate for modern safety needs like air bags and crash protection. Those things add serious weight  
Let’s look at 3 examples for comparison

1. LC200: The 2021 model weighed ~5800 lbs. While it was a very high quality build I’d argue that there are some places where the Grenadier pips it for beefiness. No F&R lockers or metal bumpers. Plus the LC doesn’t have a heavy front axle. Plus I don’t know if this weight is wet or dry weight
2. Jeep Wrangler Rubicon 2021: The Jeep weighs 4450 lbs. Not as robustly built, the roof isn’t even a sealed affair, very low payload. By the time you beef up the Jeep to Grenadier levels you will be looking at 5000lbs weight and still poor payload and interior space. Similar to the LC I don’t know if this is a wet or dry weight. Jeep and most manufacturers are notorious in not being clear on how they specify weight and payload
3. G Wagon: I can give a bit more hands on experience with my 1997 diesel G. Arguably the most apples to apples comparison due to the Magna connection. Mine weighs 5440 lbs with 90% tank, all fluids, a half sleeping platform and no driver. That leaves me with a payload balance of 1500 lbs. It has metal bumpers, triple locked and solid axles F&R and arguably almost very similar dimensionally to the Grenadier. It doesn’t have remotely the same degree of active safety as the Grenadier. 
As you can see the Grenadier isn’t that heavy or out of the ballpark when compared to similar peers. I’d argue that through some smart material and componentry choices they have actually invested the weight in the right areas like frame, body and axles. [/QUOTE]

But even with very solid build and design - as Paachi says with modern cars weights have gone up.

My 1983 MB G wagon with solid ladder frame, solid axels, lockers etc. etc. - weights only 2000 kg.

The 1997 the MB G wagon weighs 2,450 kg.

 

[easycass]

Having owned two Toyota 200 Series Landcruisers, I find the weight is about what I might expect for something that is built to be tough and comfortable. However, one area that has been necessary in the Landcruiser in order to utilise this toughness and give the extra payload that long-distance remote travel requires, is a GVM upgrade. Conveniently, one can increase the standard 3350kg  to 4200Kg GVM post-rego just with a suspension upgrade. As I am aware, this is possible as the axle and running gear components are designed strong enough to carry the extra weight.

So, as it appears the Grenadier is designed with this same toughness, it is a little bit of a shame that the payload (i.e. GVM) was not set higher as standard to match this great engineering. If everything is so well engineered, why didn't they add in some higher rated suspension components as an option? You know what I mean, 'built for purpose' rather than 'modified later for purpose' would have been nice ?

What's makes this somewhat inconvenient is that, while a Landcruiser can get a GVM upgrade right  now off the shelf, it will undoubtedly take some time before one is available for the Grenadier, especially one that has top of the line springs and remote-res shockies, etc. Add in that long range tank upgrade we hope to get at some point, and payload becomes even more an issue...

So yep, while this may not effect all users of course, for those needing a long-distance expedition oriented vehicle, 'heavy' by itself is not the issue in my mind. It is that the advantage of this extra strength and therefore extra weight leads to a disadvantage in payload, which would have been nice to have been fixed at source.

 

[Robbedoes]

That is a very good point easycass. The solid build should easily allow for a better GVM, ideally of course, as you say, as a factory option with upgraded suspension components. For a dedicated 4wd car that would have been an awesome upgrade, no idea how easy or difficult that would be to do on a production line.

 

[Robbedoes]

[QUOTE username=emax userid=8900646 postid=1332769282]

Absolutely agree. 15-18l/100km is however a lot, but three tons take their toll.

It is in general the braking which costs the fuel. If you accelerate, you do of course need fuel, but you get something back: velocity. So you exchange fuel for kinetic energy. However, if you brake, you simply destroy the energy, it's gone forever. And the more mass you have accelerated the more energy will be converted to heat. And that's of course a function of mass.

That's why I always try to avoid braking as much as possible, i.e.: I try to adopt my velocity to what's ahead. A sharp curve - let it roll in time. Same goes for red lights, street crossings and all the traffic around you. Within a city this is often impossible, and thus the frequent braking wastes everything you have invested before.

[/QUOTE]So the fuel saving is in not having to accelerate as often by maintaining as much speed as possible...

 

[emax]

About as.

But I am a bit more fundamental: The fuel saving is in braking as little as possible.

This doesn't reduce the savings to as much speed as possible as the concept is true for any velocity.

 

[LRTime]

INEOS reserves the right to adjust the prices and fuel consumtion values as well as CO2 emission values. This is a clear statement in the terms and condition documents of the 2500 Euro reservation contract here in Germany.   
I do hope that the values are not over optimistic. The given numbers for the Diesel (I got no experience with petrol vehicles) are decent for such a big and heavy vehicle. I agree with previous statements.  
Christian

 

[Tom D]

I suspect the GVM on the Grenadier is down to UK regulations. Which is interesting as its built in the EU. Here in the UK the standard driving licence covers you up to 3.5 tons, (used to be 7.5) plus 3.5 ton trailer. Vehicles over 3.5 also have to have an operators licence and more regular road worthiness testing. It’s the same with the towing weight, here you can tow up to 3.5 tons on a standard licence, after that your into a different licence and another driving test. In the EU I believe that 4.5 tons is a significant weight. Many light goods vehicles sold in the UK have a 4.5 ton version which is more popular on the continent, they are still sold here but you need the operators licence and driving licence to use them. 

 

[das mo]

INEOS reserves the right to adjust the prices and fuel consumtion values as well as CO2 emission values. This is a clear statement in the terms and condition documents of the 2500 Euro reservation contract here in Germany.
I do hope that the values are not over optimistic. The given numbers for the Diesel (I got no experience with petrol vehicles) are decent for such a big and heavy vehicle. I agree with previous statements.
Christian

I checked back on that with the driving instructor at the test drive, who has been one of the folks moving cars between locations.

He said the Diesel takes 12L on the Autobahn, but confessed he is not the 100km/h type of person.

 

[Krabby]

We use MPG here so I had to use a converter I found online. It said 12L/100km is 28.23 MPG (US gallon). Does that sound correct?

 

[das mo]

We use MPG here so I had to use a converter I found online. It said 12L/100km is 28.23 MPG (US gallon). Does that sound correct?

I cannot tell, but assuming he was going faster than US highways allow.