Grenadier almost killed me (or/and someone else)

[AWo]

I'm working on that baby today....

 

[Tazzieman]

I'm working on that baby today....
View attachment 7870778

Some chunky tyres there!

 

[AWo]

The worst I ever owned, a mistake...awful.
I was blinded by the view, but they are crap.

BTW: Security ML814 in 7.5x16

AWo

 

[DaveB]

There is no intrinsec "need" for modern vehicles to have critical electronics, and I really expected this from Ineos, given the "specialized" mantra of this vehicle.
That's not to say that I don't appreciate electronics. I am an engineer and software programmer myself, working in DevOps and Security. I like technology, if I can use it to my advantage. But I dislike it if it stands in my way. And tech stays in the way of productivity more than ever, recently. It kinda shifted the normal perspective of "the ends justify the means". In today's world, I feel that tech becomes the only purpose. I am sorry, but I don't understand this.
The only required critical tech from a vehicle is maybe an ECU, but that's also questionable given that Toyota still sells the 1HZ engine in their 70-series, which is a naturally aspirated pure mechanical engine.
And there is a plethora of non-critical tech, with non-intrusive failure paths, I don't mind having in my vehicle - ABS, TPMS, Airbags, infotainment, maybe climate control (if it's failure path is manual mode), TCM if it's and Auto. But that's it. This is where the list ends, at least from my perspective in regard to a vehicle that advertises itself to be dependable.

Not sure what is meant by Critical corner cases rendering lockers unusable:
1. Enabling offroad mode sometimes makes the vehicle throw a "front locker button malfunction". After this error, you are unable to activate offroad mode, and you cannot use lockers if not in offroad mode. You have to stop the car and wait 10 minutes for the system to enter sleep mode and clear the errors.
2. Any error whatsoever prevents using offroad mode (so you are unable to use lockers).
3. Climbing a slippery steep hill sometimes requires power, momentum and lockers engaged. Ineos is automatically disengaging lockers past 50km/h, which will put the driver in an unfortunate situation of loosing momentum and rolling down uncontrollably.
All lockers should be usable no matter if the car is in Hi/Low and irrespective of other systems malfunction, except for the lockers malfunction themselves. A locker should never disengage by itself. An audible alarm of exceeding speed would be enough.

In a nutshell, a dependable vehicle should not make decisions for the driver. That's my point. I want to be in control. And Ineos promised exactly this when they presented the Grenadier.

You do not need to be in off road mode to engage the lockers.

You'll never achieve the emission goals in the US and EU without an ECU. Even the UPS, Unit Pump System, engines need an ECU to control up to three injections and they were the first engines with pre- and post injections.. You'll not achieve this with mechanical stuff. Toyota considers itself as a global mobility provider. Thererfore they have to sense what particular markets needs and what the regulations allow. The engines of Toyota you speak of can't be sold everywhere in the world, but they are still produced for countries where they are needed, can be maintained and the regulations allow them.

If you want to have an "old" Land Cruiser HZJ imported into the EU it must come with a base technology that allows to upgrade them to EU regulations. Companys like Tom's Fahrzeugtechnik or Nestle (not the food company) import these cars and modify them (in Germany). However, even in the countries they are produced, like South Africa, the regulations get tight. It is possible, that these good old engines will disappear, as well.

I personaly like the engines from the 1990ty years most. They were matured, flawless and had no environmental technology which harm the engine, require sensor technology and ECU's.
The company which from my point of view managed it best, to keep engines easy while fulfilling regulations is Mazda. With their Skyactive engine (compression+ignition petrol engine) they managed to match regulations without an EGR. But as it gets more and more tight, they will also hit the limits.

Other electronic stuff is simply required by law. I always get mad when I enter the Hilux and first of all I have to shut down all things which get me crazy before I can enjoy the ride. That's why I love it so much to drive with my Land Rover Series 2a....Get in, press the starter knob and go. A steering wheel, brakes, a speedo, a clutch and a gearbox, light and wipers. That's it.

Yes
Some things are required by different countries laws.
Also the BMW engine comes with an ECU requirement

 

[alexandruast]

You do not need to be in off road mode to engage the lockers.

In order to engage any electronically actuated locker on the IG (rear and/or front), the lock conditions need to be met: offroad mode enabled and central diff lock engaged. Only the central lock can be engaged without "lock conditions", because it's a mechanical one.

 

[Logsplitter]

In order to engage any electronically actuated locker on the IG (rear and/or front), the lock conditions need to be met: offroad mode enabled and central diff lock engaged. Only the central lock can be engaged without "lock conditions", because it's a mechanical one.

Off road mode doesn’t need to be enabled to use the back and front lockers on my Grenadier. The only condition is that you are in low range and centre differential locked and of course no spinning wheels when attempting to engage the lockers. To use the front locker the rear has to be already engaged.

 

[alexandruast]

Off road mode doesn’t need to be enabled to use the back and front lockers on my Grenadier. The only condition is that you are in low range and centre differential locked and of course no spinning wheels when attempting to engage the lockers. To use the front locker the rear has to be already engaged.

From what I recall, mine won't engage lockers without offroad mode. I think there are a few software variants, based on markets. For example, I can use the offroad aux lights anytime with the high beam (without being in offroad mode), and also the winch has no other requirements other than enabling the 500A toggle switch (no offroad mode or neutral required).

 

[Logsplitter]

From what I recall, mine won't engage lockers without offroad mode. I think there are a few software variants, based on markets. For example, I can use the offroad aux lights anytime with the high beam (without being in offroad mode), and also the winch has no other requirements other than enabling the 500A toggle switch (no offroad mode or neutral required).

As far as I am aware ,when it comes to diff locks all markets are the same and certainly with a Romanian registered vehicle it will be the same as the the rest of Europe including the U.K. Agreed about the auxiliary lights in Europe that we can use them without being in off road mode. Not the same for the American market I understand.

 

[MRO]

I had a very scary moment with my IG a few days ago.
I decided to write about it, because I feel that Ineos doesn't care about Grenadier owners, whatsoever.
More on that, later. Now, the incident:
It was an early cold morning, driving on a very busy national road (Romania, DN1). I was just hitting the road, so I pressed the driver seat heating button to warm up a bit. After a few seconds and some dings and dangs, the telltale screen was lit like a Christmas tree, with errors on all major systems - steering, gearbox, abs, esc, brakes, hydraulics, engine. I continued to drive, because the car was driving normally and I was being used to the IG's bugs and quirks. While driving, I called the local dealership to investigate, because the last time I drove the IG was back from the dealership after the service interval (software update, fluids and filters) - I thought it has something to do with the software update. The guy there was always very helpful, he sincerely apologized and suggested that I should restart the car to see if it goes away. It didn't go away after the first restart, but something strange was happening - the car would not move when accelerated, and the ESC telltale was flashing like I was on some very slippery surface. I called the technician again, and he advised to take a break for the system to reset, which I just did. After 5-10 minutes, the car started normally, no errors whatsoever. It was very drivable. At least for a while... because now comes the near-death-experience moment... My route required to take a left on this busy national road. Keep in mind that this is a very busy road, with no central barrier, six lanes, and no traffic management in place, and the usual speeds are between 80 to 120 km/h. Turning left usually takes anywhere between one to even 10 minutes if you are unlucky or slow to take off. As I just said, I was waiting patiently at the intersection for a gap in the traffic, the gap came so I pressed the accelerator firmly. The car accelerated normally for a second, then it brake itself and stalled in the middle of the f#cking street. I heard the brakes of the other cars on the opposite lane, hurling towards me at 100km/h. All traffic got halted. I had to restart the car once again, this time it drove normally and I could clear the intersection. Luckily, nobody was hurt... But I've never been so embarrassed in my entire life. I drove the car back to the dealership. While driving, I contacted Ineos International Roadside Assistance, which was not so helpful, with no technicians immediately available on the phone, but at least someone from the tech called me later that day. I told him the story, the car was already at the Ineos dealership for investigations.

Apparently, a rock somehow managed to damage the wheel speed crown on the rear wheel , and the car would spiral into a meltdown.
This is the Ineos official ticket: AA1052865
The guys from the local dealership don't know how to handle this issue (warranty or not), so the car is grounded in the meantime.
Same communication issues from the BMW dealership to Ineos, it seems it's Ineos specific, which is a damn SHAME!
INEOS, get YOUR shit together, mate!

Later edit:
I apologize for not clearly specify why I think that Ineos doesn't care. It's because of repeated issues with communication and support, with dealerships, engineering and Ineos International Roadside Assistance. When people aped in to buy this vehicle (myself included), I think most of us did it because of the promises - modular vehicle, dependable, minimal non-interfering electronics, no bulls#it mechanics, no lock-ins and worldwide professional roadside assistance, including spare parts and access to highly trained professionals in case something goes south in the bush. In this particular case, the local dealership was unable to resolve the issue, and the car was grounded for indefinite time, with no clear direction on whether the repairs would be covered under warranty. At the dealership, there is a single person allowed to use the Ineos ordering software. This person is on vacation, so nobody knows anything, they are kind and apologetic, but not helpful. In a friendly chat, I was suggested to get a Toyota instead. The guys there all feel like Ineos pushed this vehicle down their throat without any vendor support whatsoever, they have no contact for spare parts, just a ordering software. NO CONTACT WHATSOEVER FROM INEOS. This kind of experience is frustrating for both dealerships and owners who expected the Grenadier to be a highly dependable, no-frills vehicle capable of handling tough conditions, and it creates the perception that Ineos is not responsive and responsible enough.
This problem reflects a deeper issue with the reliability of electronics in a vehicle that is supposed to be robust and capable of surviving tough, remote conditions, where such failures could be life-threatening. The lack of quick solutions or proactive communication has led to a feeling that Ineos is not prioritizing customers, as they should. In fact, I have no idea what they prioritize, and I even question if they actually exist and for how long. There are a lot of issues that were raised last year, that Ineos is aware about (at least the issues were communicated, nobody actually knows if or who they reached, and I sincerely question it's awareness):
- retrofit of critical components not available, even if they were paid when ordered the vehicle (vehicle came without): tow package, diesel water separator.
- No software updates to address critical corner cases that render the lockers unusable without resetting the vehicle.
- Not addressing the batteries burping acid on brake pipes.
- Not addressing the climate control erratic function.
- Not addressing airbag error on battery disconnect (only reset-able at dealership).
- Not addressing erratic headlight control and other random dings and dongs.
- Not addressing pointy hose clamps that pinch holes into other hoses they are in touch with.
- Not addressing bowden cables falling on the shaft.
- Not addressing the battery getting flat in camping when frequently opening doors.
- Not addressing exposed undercarriage components which have already been damaged (and have no place hanging low in an offroad vehicle) - radiators, lambdas, harnesses, abs rings, brake lines.
- Not addressing poor software development and bugs on systems like abs, offroad mode. Damn, even the fuel gauge was coded with a linear progression for an intricate designed fuel tank, which is the wrong way.

I know that some other cars might experience similar failure paths, but Ineos Grenadier was not advertised as a normal, off-the-shelf, car. It was designed (or, at least, advertised) as a specialized vehicle that won't stand in the way.
My trusty Land Cruiser 80 doesn't stand in my way. I don't get it, what's so freakin hard to get things right the way they were 30 years ago? Nobody forced Ineos to overcomplicate things to the point of not being able to figure out their own vehicles. Land Rover did it. Ford did it. Toyota did it with the 300 series, but I did not expect Ineos to do it. I really feel like Idiocracy is closer to a documentary than ever. The only mandatory facts were emissions. Surprisingly, they did an excellent job where they were constrained the most, because the powertrain is faultless.

Has your dealer replaced the speed sensor ring yet? Mine was also damaged by a stone and the hub apparently requires an unavailable special tool to replace the part. My dealer has been truly excellent in trying to find a solution (Ocean Plymouth) but no help from Ineos and car has been almost unusable for 7 weeks. Multiple error codes, no ABS, no diff locks, no cruise control and once went into limp mode. Deeply frustrating. I dont appreciate having to use a 110 TD5 for long journeys. Does anyone from Ineos read this forum?

 

[DaveB]

In order to engage any electronically actuated locker on the IG (rear and/or front), the lock conditions need to be met: offroad mode enabled and central diff lock engaged. Only the central lock can be engaged without "lock conditions", because it's a mechanical one.

That isn't correct on mine.
This is from the manual showing what is impacted by off road mode
Note also that it deactivates at 70kmh not 50

 

[DaveB]

I had a very scary moment with my IG a few days ago.
I decided to write about it, because I feel that Ineos doesn't care about Grenadier owners, whatsoever.
More on that, later. Now, the incident:
It was an early cold morning, driving on a very busy national road (Romania, DN1). I was just hitting the road, so I pressed the driver seat heating button to warm up a bit. After a few seconds and some dings and dangs, the telltale screen was lit like a Christmas tree, with errors on all major systems - steering, gearbox, abs, esc, brakes, hydraulics, engine. I continued to drive, because the car was driving normally and I was being used to the IG's bugs and quirks. While driving, I called the local dealership to investigate, because the last time I drove the IG was back from the dealership after the service interval (software update, fluids and filters) - I thought it has something to do with the software update. The guy there was always very helpful, he sincerely apologized and suggested that I should restart the car to see if it goes away. It didn't go away after the first restart, but something strange was happening - the car would not move when accelerated, and the ESC telltale was flashing like I was on some very slippery surface. I called the technician again, and he advised to take a break for the system to reset, which I just did. After 5-10 minutes, the car started normally, no errors whatsoever. It was very drivable. At least for a while... because now comes the near-death-experience moment... My route required to take a left on this busy national road. Keep in mind that this is a very busy road, with no central barrier, six lanes, and no traffic management in place, and the usual speeds are between 80 to 120 km/h. Turning left usually takes anywhere between one to even 10 minutes if you are unlucky or slow to take off. As I just said, I was waiting patiently at the intersection for a gap in the traffic, the gap came so I pressed the accelerator firmly. The car accelerated normally for a second, then it brake itself and stalled in the middle of the f#cking street. I heard the brakes of the other cars on the opposite lane, hurling towards me at 100km/h. All traffic got halted. I had to restart the car once again, this time it drove normally and I could clear the intersection. Luckily, nobody was hurt... But I've never been so embarrassed in my entire life. I drove the car back to the dealership. While driving, I contacted Ineos International Roadside Assistance, which was not so helpful, with no technicians immediately available on the phone, but at least someone from the tech called me later that day. I told him the story, the car was already at the Ineos dealership for investigations.

Apparently, a rock somehow managed to damage the wheel speed crown on the rear wheel , and the car would spiral into a meltdown.
This is the Ineos official ticket: AA1052865
The guys from the local dealership don't know how to handle this issue (warranty or not), so the car is grounded in the meantime.
Same communication issues from the BMW dealership to Ineos, it seems it's Ineos specific, which is a damn SHAME!
INEOS, get YOUR shit together, mate!

Later edit:
I apologize for not clearly specify why I think that Ineos doesn't care. It's because of repeated issues with communication and support, with dealerships, engineering and Ineos International Roadside Assistance. When people aped in to buy this vehicle (myself included), I think most of us did it because of the promises - modular vehicle, dependable, minimal non-interfering electronics, no bulls#it mechanics, no lock-ins and worldwide professional roadside assistance, including spare parts and access to highly trained professionals in case something goes south in the bush. In this particular case, the local dealership was unable to resolve the issue, and the car was grounded for indefinite time, with no clear direction on whether the repairs would be covered under warranty. At the dealership, there is a single person allowed to use the Ineos ordering software. This person is on vacation, so nobody knows anything, they are kind and apologetic, but not helpful. In a friendly chat, I was suggested to get a Toyota instead. The guys there all feel like Ineos pushed this vehicle down their throat without any vendor support whatsoever, they have no contact for spare parts, just a ordering software. NO CONTACT WHATSOEVER FROM INEOS. This kind of experience is frustrating for both dealerships and owners who expected the Grenadier to be a highly dependable, no-frills vehicle capable of handling tough conditions, and it creates the perception that Ineos is not responsive and responsible enough.
This problem reflects a deeper issue with the reliability of electronics in a vehicle that is supposed to be robust and capable of surviving tough, remote conditions, where such failures could be life-threatening. The lack of quick solutions or proactive communication has led to a feeling that Ineos is not prioritizing customers, as they should. In fact, I have no idea what they prioritize, and I even question if they actually exist and for how long. There are a lot of issues that were raised last year, that Ineos is aware about (at least the issues were communicated, nobody actually knows if or who they reached, and I sincerely question it's awareness):
- retrofit of critical components not available, even if they were paid when ordered the vehicle (vehicle came without): tow package, diesel water separator.
- No software updates to address critical corner cases that render the lockers unusable without resetting the vehicle.
- Not addressing the batteries burping acid on brake pipes.
- Not addressing the climate control erratic function.
- Not addressing airbag error on battery disconnect (only reset-able at dealership).
- Not addressing erratic headlight control and other random dings and dongs.
- Not addressing pointy hose clamps that pinch holes into other hoses they are in touch with.
- Not addressing bowden cables falling on the shaft.
- Not addressing the battery getting flat in camping when frequently opening doors.
- Not addressing exposed undercarriage components which have already been damaged (and have no place hanging low in an offroad vehicle) - radiators, lambdas, harnesses, abs rings, brake lines.
- Not addressing poor software development and bugs on systems like abs, offroad mode. Damn, even the fuel gauge was coded with a linear progression for an intricate designed fuel tank, which is the wrong way.

I know that some other cars might experience similar failure paths, but Ineos Grenadier was not advertised as a normal, off-the-shelf, car. It was designed (or, at least, advertised) as a specialized vehicle that won't stand in the way.
My trusty Land Cruiser 80 doesn't stand in my way. I don't get it, what's so freakin hard to get things right the way they were 30 years ago? Nobody forced Ineos to overcomplicate things to the point of not being able to figure out their own vehicles. Land Rover did it. Ford did it. Toyota did it with the 300 series, but I did not expect Ineos to do it. I really feel like Idiocracy is closer to a documentary than ever. The only mandatory facts were emissions. Surprisingly, they did an excellent job where they were constrained the most, because the powertrain is faultless.

I would like to find out more about these problems.
Have you had all of these on your actual vehicle?