Friday Musings: Will the Grenadier burst the Defender bubble?

[DesertGecko]

Good point... The "architcture" has changed and seems Toyota may be going the same way?... possibly explains industry 'rumours' of why the clouds are gathering over the future of Toyota's "70"series vehicles...

Exactly. Having a whole separate line and ecosystem to support a totally different architecture is not what they do.

That's why the toyota is such an old design. Also the G-wagon too. And indeed the original defender kept on keeping on.. probably longer than it should have.

Is there enough demand for the existing players to stay in the space? Maybe Ineos will end up with a bigger market than they were expecting.

I remain convinced that the Grenadier is and will be the last clean sheet design of it's type.

 

[grenadierboy]

Exactly. Having a whole separate line and ecosystem to support a totally different architecture is not what they do.

That's why the toyota is such an old design. Also the G-wagon too. And indeed the original defender kept on keeping on.. probably longer than it should have.

Is there enough demand for the existing players to stay in the space? Maybe Ineos will end up with a bigger market than they were expecting.

I remain convinced that the Grenadier is and will be the last clean sheet design of it's type.

So what you guys are saying is that auto manufacturers have production lines of essentially similar vehicle platforms

 

[DenisM]

If the Grenadier becomes the wildly successful venture we all hope for, I can imagine some "badge engineering" emerging where it becomes the subject of joint venture efforts e.g VW/Ford (Amarok/Ranger) to plug gaps in others' product lines.... especially when the e-Grenadier eventuates in some form or other.....

 

[Max]

Just imagine VW revamping the old Kombi, suspension, brakes and a WRX turbo engine...wow...sorry of the track or thread.

And indeed the original defender kept on keeping on.. probably longer than it should have.

Yes agreed...the original Defender should have been updated earlier in the piece if they had spoken to the then-current user's wants and needs for change...but they followed fads and fashion as do the modern automotive groups.
We wouldn't be here except for a couple of beers at the local, I do wonder just how much gut feeling and a chat with the lads was Jim's market research...I will be interested to see how the Grenadier has been researched in the military and Industry sectors...sleeping giants of the market...I hope it proves well in both areas but contracts [new and old] can be long winded but time will tell...could be a bubble buster.

As far as the Toyota old girls go...change would help...taking a leaf [pardon the pun] out of the Grenadier, suspension upgrades, auto gearbox and a touch of comfort wouldn't go astray...time will tell.

 

[Max]

If the Grenadier becomes the wildly successful venture we all hope for, I can imagine some "badge engineering" emerging where it becomes the subject of joint venture efforts e.g VW/Ford (Amarok/Ranger) to plug gaps in others' product lines.... especially when the e-Grenadier eventuates in some form or other.....

I agree...but one hitch is the body is not quite generic enough just to change a badge...not quite as easy as the likes of Merc borrowing Nissan Navara and the others that can get away with cosmetics...Grenadier is a standout but we will still be waving to the old Defender boys I hope.

 

[DenisM]

So what you guys are saying is that auto manufacturers have production lines of essentially similar vehicle platforms

Exactly right...GM used brag about their "world platform architecture" and invested billions accordingly.
One small example: Ford Mondeo was the same platform as the Jaguar ... more basic, as roads improved, was the industry wide move from body on chassis - live axle, to monocoq body/sub frames/ all independent suspension.
To meet modern safety requirements the R&D to accommodate the age old body on frame ladder chassis/live axle design is enormous... hence the IA theme of " built on purpose " ...essentially a niche market requiring specific capabilities best fulfilled by the seemingly "retro" (in concept...not practice) architecture of the Grenadier. The Grenadier IP alone is no doubt a sizeable chunk of money in the assets of the Ineos ledger judging by their published patent application activity over the past several years...
It's a niche deserted by the other big players but which the "market" continues to demand
FUN FACT: Some years ago I listened to an interview with an exec of a large mining company in Australia. They literally begged Toyota to supply 70 series vehicles with the legendary turbo straight 6 diesel still available in other markets. Toyota refused point blank. Such were the overwhelming "fit for purpose" criteria for their capital expenditure business case, the mining company even offered to import the vehicles in kits to comply with Customs regs, assemble them, restrict them to the mine site and crush them when the vehicles were no longer fit for purpose. Still they were refused. The substitute 70 series with the V8 turbo diesel and consequent F/R track width issues had not lived up to the miner's operational expectations....

Once the Grenadier is being produced in the numbers planned for, the "niche" market will expand accordingly.... I wait with great interest!

 

[AnD3rew]

why would Toyota or LR making 40,000 "grenadier type" cars be too costly for them but turn a profit for uncle Jim?

INEOS is a private company so Jim and his two other partners who own it can make up their own minds about what level of profitability they can live with, they can also decide how long they are prepared to wait until it is profitable, unlike public companies who have to justify to the stock market and investors.

 

[DDG]

The grenadier should end up being a success. There are numerous niche markets out there. The SUV trend that resulted in the unibody, independent suspension, road-going, luxury vehicles has been an evolution from the 90s to the 2020s. All during that time there has existed a not small group of customers who use their vehicles in a specific way. There’s plenty of space in the market for Ineos to elbow in. In my opinion, however; they would be wise not to get out of their lane too soon. Stay utilitarian until your reputation is sterling. Build a name and a following. Do that, and boom! Robert is your mother’s brother!

 

[DesertGecko]

The grenadier should end up being a success. There are numerous niche markets out there. The SUV trend that resulted in the unibody, independent suspension, road-going, luxury vehicles has been an evolution from the 90s to the 2020s. All during that time there has existed a not small group of customers who use their vehicles in a specific way. There’s plenty of space in the market for Ineos to elbow in. In my opinion, however; they would be wise not to get out of their lane too soon. Stay utilitarian until your reputation is sterling. Build a name and a following. Do that, and boom! Robert is your mother’s brother!

Good point. Stay below the radar. Be a target too small to hit!

 

[Tazzieman]

Good point. Stay below the radar. Be a target too small to hit!

Too small for the Luxury Car Tax Man to spot

 

[DCPU]

Ineos have thoughtfully provided some untreated areas so that you can wean yourself carefully off the rust treatment processes and chemicals ~ don't want to go cold turkey from the get go:

View attachment 7806528
View attachment 7806529

So just to contrast these with what my own look like fresh off the transporter:

 

[CountyV8]

Don't the steel wheels get proper blind nuts to stop the crap getting down the threads?

 

[DCPU]

It seems all previous iterations did, including the PTO3 in the agent's showroom, but customer cars are currently being delivered like this.

OK there's six of them vs the 5 on my Defender but they do look like Ineos have bought them by the lb.

 

[Sam]

My local Ineos dealer (Magic, Perth) is now open. The only car they actually have for sale is…

… a +10y old 110

So I speculate that Ineos agents might also become the de facto local Old Defender dealership. An uncomfortable juxtaposition for LR…

 

[bemax]

My local Ineos dealer (Magic, Perth) is now open. The only car they actually have for sale is…

… a +10y old 110

So I speculate that Ineos agents might also become the de facto local Old Defender dealership. An uncomfortable juxtaposition for LR…

It will certainly fit as they have the same personalities as customers.
In Germany no dealer likes to sell used old Defenders as the warranty for used cars has to be offered to private customers.

 

[Miki]

If we are talking apples for apples here ie a D7X -v- a 22 Grenadier I am unable to offer any valid comment as i've never owned a "DX7".

If we are talking about a 200 or 300tdi Defender then they are chalk and cheese.
Landrover lost it's way with the later models (IMO) certainly with thier integration of the electronics.
The simplicity of a Defender is part of what makes it so good.
The lack of electronics.
The simplicity of the design (3 spanners and a hammer and your up and running again).

I appreciate that the Grenadier doesn't fall into the same category, times have moved forward, but hopefully it will offer the older-school owner a route into the newer car world without to much pain and still offer him a vehicle to tinker and play with.
First think i'd do with any new car is take bits off, grease and reassemble, all new vehicles are assembled dry and need a bit of grease and cavity wax here and there.

 

[MrMike]

My local Ineos dealer (Magic, Perth) is now open. The only car they actually have for sale is…

… a +10y old 110

So I speculate that Ineos agents might also become the de facto local Old Defender dealership. An uncomfortable juxtaposition for LR…

I did see that...........maybe they were using that as bait to lure potential LR owners over to the dark side?

 

[klarie]

The grenadier should end up being a success. There are numerous niche markets out there. The SUV trend that resulted in the unibody, independent suspension, road-going, luxury vehicles has been an evolution from the 90s to the 2020s. All during that time there has existed a not small group of customers who use their vehicles in a specific way. There’s plenty of space in the market for Ineos to elbow in. In my opinion, however; they would be wise not to get out of their lane too soon. Stay utilitarian until your reputation is sterling. Build a name and a following. Do that, and boom! Robert is your mother’s brother!

What nowadays is sold as SUV .. far away from a real off road capable vehicle. The SUV as it originated from the US and including cars like original Range Rover V8 were still quite capable off the road and got some utility qualities.. with a bit of added comfort to be pure utility vehicles.
looking now what is sold as SUV makes me laugh.
From a tiny car (Volkswagen did a cross polo) Ford, to BMW X6 (wtf is this?) copied by Mercedes Benz to MB GLS
in Germany there are political groups branding SUV as „street tanks„ but in fact the majority are just a bit higher street vehicles to accommodate elderly people to get in and out. nothing of utility left.
the Grenadier even in its more luxury.. (really?) fieldmaster edition is still more utilitarian than any competition.
Sir Jim has very well recognized the niche and the pickup and stretched version development reflects this.
of course a smaller electric or a more luxurious version perhaps created by a partner as a topping may occur.. if this supports profitability fine with me.. as long as the original intentions aren’t forgotten.

 

[Tazzieman]

Don't the steel wheels get proper blind nuts to stop the crap getting down the threads?

They've left that for the aftermarket. People will want all colours , glitter , the works.

 

[Krabby]

They've left that for the aftermarket. People will want all colours , glitter , the works.

Are you feelin’ lucky punk?