*Ergonomics Issue*

[DaveB]

Off topic but any speculative thoughts on how the two might compare for towing ? I've never towed but if we blow the vehicle budget on a Gren then a 5,000lb 19-21' travel trailer might be in my future.

From what I've read the current 4Runner is/ would be borderline for that size trailer for cross continent travel. The Gren is superior in terms of specs and design (hitch for eg) but it might be preferable to go full size pick up as they are readily available with lots of configurations. And if I go fullsize I'd rather have a slide in camper.

I was wondering what the TT stood for and now I see it is for Travel Trailer.
Now I just have to find out what a travel trailer is

 

[Tazzieman]

I was wondering what the TT stood for and now I see it is for Travel Trailer.
Now I just have to find out what a travel trailer is

As the pickup is to our ute , so the travel trailer is to...

 

[AZGrenadier]

Caravan

 

[painter]

I was wondering what the TT stood for and now I see it is for Travel Trailer.
Now I just have to find out what a travel trailer is

What I'm thinking with the Gren. This is the bigger 21' travel trailer

What others would use but too cold/wet/buggy for us. Offroad trailer

What I'd really like. Smokin' hot frame mount pop up camper

Ideal would be buy a modest vacation home on the other side of the country (Newfoundland and Labrador). Spend a month or so each year driving the Gren the 6,500-7,000km to get therewhile towing a travel trailer and exploring the country a bit in between each trip. Eat tonnes of Atlantic seafood for a few weeks, then head back home.

I think the Gren would be comfortable, likewise the large TT but we'd be limited to where we could explore, the total fuel consumption would be horrendous and it might just be too much for the Gren (and drivers). But have no experience towing...

BTW all the above units are made in Canada (just to showcase a bit).

Sorry folks, wildly off topic. But it's a slow news day !

 

[stickshifter]

Off topic but any speculative thoughts on how the two might compare for towing ? I've never towed but if we blow the vehicle budget on a Gren then a 5,000lb 19-21' travel trailer might be in my future.

From what I've read the current 4Runner is/ would be borderline for that size trailer for cross continent travel. The Gren is superior in terms of specs and design (hitch for eg) but it might be preferable to go full size pick up as they are readily available with lots of configurations. And if I go fullsize I'd rather have a slide in camper.

Hey Painter,
Max towing for the 4Runner in Off Road trim is 5,000 pounds, so no - you definitely don't want to be pulling that size trailer with a 4Runner. I would never regularly tow at the max of any vehicle's tow rating. Living in Colorado, I wouldn't pull more than a small tear drop trailer (~2,500 pounds) with a 4Runner. If you are not at elevation, you could pull more, but you don't want to be regularly pulling the max; you will be miserable! The Grenadier would be a much better choice for a 5,000 pound trailer - max tow rating is somewhere around 7,500 pounds.

 

[painter]

Hey Painter,
Max towing for the 4Runner in Off Road trim is 5,000 pounds, so no - you definitely don't want to be pulling that size trailer with a 4Runner. I would never regularly tow at the max of any vehicle's tow rating. Living in Colorado, I wouldn't pull more than a small tear drop trailer (~2,500 pounds) with a 4Runner. If you are not at elevation, you could pull more, but you don't want to be regularly pulling the max; you will be miserable! The Grenadier would be a much better choice for a 5,000 pound trailer - max tow rating is somewhere around 7,500 pounds.

Yes, l forgot about the turbo. Our continental divide highway passes aren't as high as in the USA but I have 450 miles of mountains to get there so point taken.

The Gren is supposedly designed with towing in mind. Size will matter, we'll eventually see what the Aussie's report.

This towing is just an idea for me, one way of getting more use out of the Gren.

Things can change. It's not like we are in any danger of getting this car anytime soon.

 

[stickshifter]

Yes, l forgot about the turbo. Our continental divide highway passes aren't as high as in the USA but I have 450 miles of mountains to get there so point taken.

The Gren is supposedly designed with towing in mind. Size will matter, we'll eventually see what the Aussie's report.

This towing is just an idea for me, one way of getting more use out of the Gren.

Things can change. It's not like we are in any danger of getting this car anytime soon.

True, True. The payload and towing capability of the Grenadier are what make it really stand out from other vehicles in its class in North America. Given its size, we have to think of the Grenadier as a "Mid-Size" vehicle, but in terms of payload and towing it blows away the competition in the Mid-Size market (Wrangler, Bronco, 4Runner). This is a consequence - not just of a strong engine and good brakes - but of its beefy frame, stiffer suspension, and higher curb weight. When you look at payload and towing, the Grenadier is half way between Mid-Size and Full-Size. For example, the Ford F150 can have a max payload of over 3,000 pounds, and max towing of 14,000 pounds (though most people spec them with features that drop those numbers a bit). When you look at curb weight, the Grenadier (5,875 pounds with the gas engine, over 6,000 pounds with the diesel) is heavier than a Ford F150, and around the same weight as a minimally-optioned F250 with a gas engine! Though it lacks the wheelbase of a F150 or F250, I would guess that the Grenadier would provide a really stable towing platform if you stay under 6,500 pounds.

You are absolutely right - the turbo in the Grenadier will really help with two things: bringing in power at low RPMs, and maintaining most of the engine's power at elevation. This makes it much more driveable than a naturally aspirated V6 (like the 3.6 Pentastar or Toyota 4.0) - even if max-power numbers aren't that different. A forced induction 6 is basically on par with a naturally aspirated V8 (given appropriate size comparisons). A good comparison is the Ford 5.0 (naturally aspirated V8) and the Ford 3.5 Ecoboost (twin turbo V6) - both of which are options in the F150. They have similar capabilities, but the 3.5 delivers its power low down in the rev-range, while the 5.0 needs to be wound-up to make good power.

The B58 is a strong engine, and should hold up well to "truck use", but it has yet to be really tested by the public in this way. We know it does well in various BMW applications and in the Supra, but no one really tows or hauls with these vehicles (sure, someone might tow a little with an X5, but not the way truck-people tow in North America). As you say, time will tell.

 

[painter]

Thank you @stickshifter for your additional thoughts.

I had looked up the curb weight of the Gren, and figured it was probably not a bad thing for it to weigh more than my proposed trailer but I hadn't compared it to an F150 - interesting !

I'll throw out another thought - pure speculation on my part - that the large frontal area (width and height) of the Gren might reduce the effect of increased frontal drag from the trailer compared to a smaller, more aerodynamic tow vehicle. That might hep a bit with the fuel consumption hit when towing.

Good comment on the lack of towing application history for the B58. Got me thinking that while Ineos may rate the petrol and diesel the same, when it comes to performance, durability, longevity etc at max tow limit, they may well be thinking the B57. After all, for "heavy" towing why wouldn't you buy the diesel (if available). So far they have mostly been talking about markets where the diesel is an available option.

And the owner towing reviews may reflect that engine choice.

 

[DaveB]

Thank you @stickshifter for your additional thoughts.

I had looked up the curb weight of the Gren, and figured it was probably not a bad thing for it to weigh more than my proposed trailer but I hadn't compared it to an F150 - interesting !

I'll throw out another thought - pure speculation on my part - that the large frontal area (width and height) of the Gren might reduce the effect of increased frontal drag from the trailer compared to a smaller, more aerodynamic tow vehicle. That might hep a bit with the fuel consumption hit when towing.

Good comment on the lack of towing application history for the B58. Got me thinking that while Ineos may rate the petrol and diesel the same, when it comes to performance, durability, longevity etc at max tow limit, they may well be thinking the B57. After all, for "heavy" towing why wouldn't you buy the diesel (if available). So far they have mostly been talking about markets where the diesel is an available option.

And the owner towing reviews may reflect that engine choice.

Christmas holidays here in Australia and the roads are full of 4WD’s, AWD’s and SUV towing camper vans, caravans, boats and trailers.
Pretty much every second vehicle and in between are the same vehicles but with roof top tents and canopies.
By the sounds and queues at the fuel pumps most of them are diesels.

 

[frankkk]

I wish I had a pound for every time I'd heard this...

and..is it wrong..? maybe people of a very slim built find a comfortable position, for an "active" driver it'll be rather difficult, simply due to that stupid steering wheel not being centred in front of you..and a few minor bits when we look at ergonomics only. I guess a real enthusiast or patriot has no problem adapting....

 

[frankkk]

Thank you @stickshifter for your additional thoughts.

I had looked up the curb weight of the Gren, and figured it was probably not a bad thing for it to weigh more than my proposed trailer but I hadn't compared it to an F150 - interesting !

I'll throw out another thought - pure speculation on my part - that the large frontal area (width and height) of the Gren might reduce the effect of increased frontal drag from the trailer compared to a smaller, more aerodynamic tow vehicle. That might hep a bit with the fuel consumption hit when towing.

Good comment on the lack of towing application history for the B58. Got me thinking that while Ineos may rate the petrol and diesel the same, when it comes to performance, durability, longevity etc at max tow limit, they may well be thinking the B57. After all, for "heavy" towing why wouldn't you buy the diesel (if available). So far they have mostly been talking about markets where the diesel is an available option.

And the owner towing reviews may reflect that engine choice.

For heavy towing, diesel is the ONLY choice. That's a utilitarian application, all utility vehicles across the globe have a diesel engine, bar EV´s - and they have yet to prove themselves. The end of petrol engines in utility vehicles came in Europe somewhere in the 50´s, by the 70´s all were gone (except some ambulances and small fire engines - but even there petrol was ousted about 20 years later)

For occasional heavy towing, petrol vehicles are still in use today - by "petrolheads". Well, if you fancy the sound of a revving engine and don't need to worry much about economics and durability, why not..

 

[DCPU]

I guess a real enthusiast or patriot has no problem adapting....

Maybe that's the issue, for those that complain of such things. I've driven a few vehicles where ergonomics might be said to be compromised but the benefits in other areas outweighed any of these negatives.

However the Defender elbow/shoulder issue, as also the Grenadier left foot rest, seem to differ in that the issue is not universally recognised but rather effects a certain few.

 

[bigleonski]

and..is it wrong..? maybe people of a very slim built find a comfortable position, for an "active" driver it'll be rather difficult, simply due to that stupid steering wheel not being centred in front of you..and a few minor bits when we look at ergonomics only. I guess a real enthusiast or patriot has no problem adapting....

Yeah, see from the brief drive I had I didn’t see/feel any issues with the steering wheel at all. The footrest felt strange when I got in but with 30 seconds of driving I’d forgotten about it. I tend to kink my left leg over long hauls anyway so hope I settle into it. The only issues I had were bumping my arm when closing the door, but once closed it was OK. Not as spacious as a cruiser, but ok.

Oh, and noone has called me slim in 35 years.

 

[frankkk]

Yeah, see from the brief drive I had I didn’t see/feel any issues with the steering wheel at all. The footrest felt strange when I got in but with 30 seconds of driving I’d forgotten about it. I tend to kink my left leg over long hauls anyway so hope I settle into it. The only issues I had were bumping my arm when closing the door, but once closed it was OK. Not as spacious as a cruiser, but ok.

Oh, and noone has called me slim in 35 years.

It's the Defender with the ergonomic issues, not the Grenadier. Couldn't say, never drove one.

Dunno if the Defender ergonomics affect just a few. Outside the Defender World it seems to affect everyone. Tell you why. I've been out in the sticks for about ten years, looking after peoplez with the entire range of serious 4x4´s out there, in the most demanding terrain. Defender drivers are usually entirely happy with their vehicle, be it out of compassion, admiration, what they are used to or they way they were brought up.

No one, not a single Defender driver, has ever mentioned poor ergonomics as a limiting factor or any factor for that matter. Instead, they smile at you with the arm out the window. The vehicle seems to be doing something´, to deter the pilot from a clear judgement. However, as soon as a Toyota or a Mercedes driver gets behind the wheel of a Defender, the ergonomics (or lack of) become apparent. No way, Rosé, every one would say, including myself. Nissan, Mitsii, Isuzu, Jeep, Lada and Suzuki were never any real contenders out there. Limiting factors in this part of the world (North Africa) are mainly spare parts and the (lack) of garages looking after these vehicles..

Just like tires, Defender Yes or No is an endless discussion amongst 4x4 folk, enriching countless talks around the fire...and in forums nowadays.

 

[bigleonski]

It's the Defender with the ergonomic issues, not the Grenadier. Couldn't say, never drove one.

Dunno if the Defender ergonomics affect just a few. Tell you why. I've been out in the sticks for about ten years, looking after peoplez with the entire range of serious 4x4´s out there in the most demanding terrain. Defender drivers are usually entirely happy with their vehicle, be it out of compassion, what they are used to or they way they were brought up.

No one, not a single Defender driver, has ever mentioned poor ergonomics as a limiting factor or any factor for that matter. However, as soon as a Toyota or a Mercedes driver gets behind the wheel of a Defender, it becomes apparent where the differences are. Nissan, Mitsii, Isuzu, Jeep, Lada and Suzuki were never any real contenders out there. Limiting factors in this part of the world (North Africa) are mainly spare parts and the (lack) of garages looking after these vehicles..

Just like tires, Defender Yes or No is an endless discussion amongst 4x4 folk, enriching countless talks around the fire...and in forums nowadays.

Nah I think defender drivers know exactly the ergonomics problems of their vehicles. They just choose to ignore them or live with them.

 

[Logsplitter]

Nah I think defender drivers know exactly the ergonomics problems of their vehicles. They just choose to ignore them or live with them.

I think that’s what frankkk is saying. Maybe I got it wrong ?
frankkk quote :- “No one, not a single Defender driver, has ever mentioned poor ergonomics as a limiting factor or any factor for that matter. Instead, they smile at you with the arm out the window.”

 

[Krabby]

Ergonomics was not an applied science when my Series II LR was designed, and given that little had really changed until the end of the Defender, I can see where people used to other vehicles get in a Defender and are taken aback. I never took my 88” on a long voyage so I cannot speak to that. However, I once hit my elbow so hard against the inside of the door/window frame I honestly thought I’d broken in. Literally saw stars.

 

[Logsplitter]

Personally we’ve never had any problems with the defender 2.2tdci , although neither of us are large, so that probably helps. We found it fairly comfortable also, but really looking forward to the comfort, comparative roominess and ease of the automatic gearbox on the Grenadier. I used to find the defenders manual gearbox a bit tiresome in heavy slow traffic and and on steep switch back hill climbs. I think the Grenadier will be a breeze to drive compared to the defender.

 

[DCPU]

Yes ~ a sweet auto box is also something I'm greatly looking forward to. The Ford MT82 gearbox and the value engineering done by JLR to make it all work in a Defender were never one of it's best features.

 

[stickshifter]

Personally we’ve never had any problems with the defender 2.2tdci , although neither of us are large, so that probably helps. We found it fairly comfortable also, but really looking forward to the comfort, comparative roominess and ease of the automatic gearbox on the Grenadier. I used to find the defenders manual gearbox a bit tiresome in heavy slow traffic and and on steep switch back hill climbs. I think the Grenadier will be a breeze to drive compared to the defender.

The problem is the traffic, not the manual gearbox

I rarely drive in traffic, but when I do, I wish I had an 8-speed ZF.