General Diesel or Petrol for traveling

[DesertGecko]

Sometimes a simple box trailer is a better solution. I had a galvanised 6x4 box trailer and got hubs made to match my tow vehicle wheels, put a heavy duty axle (steel bar really) on that matched the wheel spacing of my tow vehicle and heavier duty leaf springs and mounted them under the axle instead of on top to give more clearance put a spare wheel carrier on the drawbar. It’s relatively lightweight, not too huge to store at home tucked in a corner of the yard didn’t cost that much to put together (biggest cost was 3 matching wheels and tyres) and it gave me an extra spare, or in an emergency an extra 3 spares if you ditch the trailer. A grenadier wouldn’t even know it was pulling it and with matching wheel spacing it very little extra drag even offroad in samd and wheel ruts.

I do like that idea.

Unfortunately I do a lot of desert work and I'd rather not have a trailer for the dunes. The correct answer is just to not try and fit 5 people in a car. (facepalm). There is one famous (in his own lunchtime anyway) youtuber in particular.. hi fills the entire car when travelling alone or two up. Sheer luxury!

I reckon I could easily forgo the roof rack entirely with one or two people even for remote trips. Plus I wouldn't have to go over every single thing and critically asses if it can be reduced or left at home. I would miss my awning though.

We do need someone to come up with a bigger fuel tank though!

 

[trobex]

That's fascinating.

Can't wait to see how these cars go in the real world.

That is the best fuel eccon I have ever heard of considering a 110k/h with a trailer at that size. There isn't a vehicle in Australia getting that economy with 2.5T trailer in tow at 110km. The TT2.0D in the Ford Ranger won't get that with a trailer haha.

 

[trobex]

That would be nice. I was wondering if the gas-version in Europe and Australia was priced higher than it should be, in order to subsidize the price of the diesel. Otherwise, how do you sell them at the same price? But I don't know much about these BMW engines - maybe it costs about the same to produce the B58 as it does the B57?

I think it had something to do with them offering a commercial variant of the wagon... there are incentives and a more attractive market is Australia (and other parts of the world) for diesel utilities. BMW is also facing a European market where the EU is trying to phase out diesel passenger vehicles. So they would be offering incentives to keep these rolling off the production floor for as long add possible. Ineos in Australia is going to be sold out for a very long time. Every single person I met at the test drives had diesel on order. I probably spoke to 12 people over 2 days. The Ineos rep did say a couple of people he took on test drives changed their orders to petrol - mainly because of the diesel costs here in Australia is bogus high. If I were driving this in the city and an occasional family trip then petrol would be solid choice also.

 

[DesertGecko]

I think it had something to do with them offering a commercial variant of the wagon... there are incentives and a more attractive market is Australia (and other parts of the world) for diesel utilities. BMW is also facing a European market where the EU is trying to phase out diesel passenger vehicles. So they would be offering incentives to keep these rolling off the production floor for as long add possible. Ineos in Australia is going to be sold out for a very long time. Every single person I met at the test drives had diesel on order. I probably spoke to 12 people over 2 days. The Ineos rep did say a couple of people he took on test drives changed their orders to petrol - mainly because of the diesel costs here in Australia is bogus high. If I were driving this in the city and an occasional family trip then petrol would be solid choice also.

I think i read or heard somewhere 90% of orders in Aus are diesel. I'm on the fence!

I need to see what they do in real life.

 

[Nocrays]

I think i read or heard somewhere 90% of orders in Aus are diesel. I'm on the fence!

I need to see what they do in real life.

When getting out to the remote regions and getting petrol becomes an issue. Diesel is always available.

Also ill be towing significant weights from time to time around the state and know that the petrol economy goes to the toilet for other brands so Ill be sticking to diesel.

 

[OGrid]

I think i read or heard somewhere 90% of orders in Aus are diesel. I'm on the fence!

I need to see what they do in real life.

It was 80%.

 

[DenisM]

This is correct, under normal daily driving conditions and I think the Petrol is actually a fair proposition for many buyers. Towing will fall HEAVILY in favour of the diesel - I am yet to see ever, a similarly powered modern petrol engine that gets anywhere close to a modern diesel variant. In Gold Coast today 91R was $1.65 and Diesel $1.98. Who the heck a lower grade (cheaper) fuel is 30c a litre more is beyond me....

Gets back to the refinery yield from a barrel of crude. About 45% is petrol, 26-28% is distillate (diesel), 10-12% jet fuel and the rest is the numerous other products for lube oils, plastics, bitumen for roads etc etc. They can tweak the refinery a few % either way to change the diesel/jet fuel ratio. With the huge increase in air traffic now close to exceeding pre-Covid levels, the 'demand' competition is driving the price of both diesel and jet fuel... I did at one stage seriously consider changing my order to a petrol engine... However, diesel prices don't seem to be a sensitive to the so-called market "price cycle swing" as petrol prices..that for me means less stress... Early this morning between the Brisbane CBD and the airport, the price of diesel was $2.03 +/- 2 cents per litre. (4 different servos). The corresponding price of 91 Octane petrol varied between $1.73 -$2.03 per litre. For 98 Octane the additional cost was $0.23-27 per litre!
The increased price for 98 octane I was advised is due to the fact that it is a "narrower cut" out of the distillation process...therefore its hydrocarbon composition is more uniform ... downstream, it is stored separately etc etc ...it all adds to the cost ...plus no doubt there's a 'premium' margin added "because they can"!

One more "fun fact"..I heard a radio interview the other day with a finance guru commenting on the cost of financing and operating a service station. He said the average servo has at least A$5 million in financing debt and that up to 8 cents per litre may need to be allocated just for interest repayments! During the regular price cycle, when the margin between wholesale and retail prices drops below the interest repayment they lose money with every litre until the price cycle recovers. They have to stay price competitive to maintain their fuel turnover with the oil companies!

 

[globalgregors]

I think it had something to do with them offering a commercial variant of the wagon... there are incentives and a more attractive market is Australia (and other parts of the world) for diesel utilities. BMW is also facing a European market where the EU is trying to phase out diesel passenger vehicles. So they would be offering incentives to keep these rolling off the production floor for as long add possible. Ineos in Australia is going to be sold out for a very long time. Every single person I met at the test drives had diesel on order. I probably spoke to 12 people over 2 days. The Ineos rep did say a couple of people he took on test drives changed their orders to petrol - mainly because of the diesel costs here in Australia is bogus high. If I were driving this in the city and an occasional family trip then petrol would be solid choice also.

Not to mention that it's very likely Resources industry fleets will transition to FCEV technology, which would see future product convergence (rugged H2 fuel cell EV) for which Ineos/Hyundai might even have the drop on Toyota, distracted as they are trying to be all things to all people.

 

[trobex]

I think i read or heard somewhere 90% of orders in Aus are diesel. I'm on the fence!

I need to see what they do in real life.

I'm yet to see a vehicle in Australia towing anything at 2T and over that gets less than 14L/100. I could give mum's Peugeot 401XT a go but I think it would melt 50km in to the trip!

Gets back to the refinery yield from a barrel of crude. About 45% is petrol, 26-28% is distillate (diesel), 10-12% jet fuel and the rest is the numerous other products for lube oils, plastics, bitumen for roads etc etc. They can tweak the refinery a few % either way to change the diesel/jet fuel ratio. With the huge increase in air traffic now close to exceeding pre-Covid levels, the 'demand' competition is driving the price of both diesel and jet fuel... I did at one stage seriously consider changing my order to a petrol engine... However, diesel prices don't seem to be a sensitive to the so-called market "price cycle swing" as petrol prices..that for me means less stress... Early this morning between the Brisbane CBD and the airport, the price of diesel was $2.03 +/- 2 cents per litre. (4 different servos). The corresponding price of 91 Octane petrol varied between $1.73 -$2.03 per litre. For 98 Octane the additional cost was $0.23-27 per litre!
The increased price for 98 octane I was advised is due to the fact that it is a "narrower cut" out of the distillation process...therefore its hydrocarbon composition is more uniform ... downstream, it is stored separately etc etc ...it all adds to the cost ...plus no doubt there's a 'premium' margin added "because they can"!

One more "fun fact"..I heard a radio interview the other day with a finance guru commenting on the cost of financing and operating a service station. He said the average servo has at least A$5 million in financing debt and that up to 8 cents per litre may need to be allocated just for interest repayments! During the regular price cycle, when the margin between wholesale and retail prices drops below the interest repayment they lose money with every litre until the price cycle recovers. They have to stay price competitive to maintain their fuel turnover with the oil companies!

Haha the old "fuel cycle" biggest con of the 20th and 21st centuries. The barrel of oil, wages, and what ever else or takes to make fuel doesn't change on Tuesday morning... and then gets cheaper Friday morning! : but fuel prices gets the bowser do!!! Fuel cycle was created by the retail fuel industry to do nothing more than make more profit. The refiners don't charge more for distributable fuels on Tuesday morning - they slide with the barrel of oil and overall demand for the differing variants and that's about it. But I see 40c price swings for petrol here in SE QLD. Diesel had swung between 1.89 and about 2.03 for the last 6 weeks which is ok. Petrol 1.56 to 1.97 for 91R. What the hell haha.

 

[DenisM]

Sometimes a simple box trailer is a better solution. I had a galvanised 6x4 box trailer and got hubs made to match my tow vehicle wheels, put a heavy duty axle (steel bar really) on that matched the wheel spacing of my tow vehicle and heavier duty leaf springs and mounted them under the axle instead of on top to give more clearance put a spare wheel carrier on the drawbar. It’s relatively lightweight, not too huge to store at home tucked in a corner of the yard didn’t cost that much to put together (biggest cost was 3 matching wheels and tyres) and it gave me an extra spare, or in an emergency an extra 3 spares if you ditch the trailer. A grenadier wouldn’t even know it was pulling it and with matching wheel spacing it very little extra drag even offroad in samd and wheel ruts.

That's been my experience also as regards reduced fuel consumption.. .
I bought a Carlex folding 6x4 trailer which, when folded, can be wheeled on castors through a standard door opening into a store room... but, I digress.
It's a flat bed in current configuration 12"wheels and 20"tyres, a 19mm ply floor with "L-track" for tie down points. Tare weight is a shade less than 130kg. I've towed it for several thousand Km ...it's rated for 500kg load. With a 2019 Santa Fe diesel and a roof top tent on roof rails, no trailer, cruising at 95-100km/hr the consumption was between 9 and 10.5 L/100km over a 500km return trip, depending on the prevailing wind. When I transferred the RTT to the trailer and repeated the same trip the fuel consumption dropped to between 7.1 and 7.5 L/100km.... These numbers were "at the pump" not the vehicle onboard fuel flow numbers. I was quite surprised at the difference.

 

[DenisM]

I'm yet to see a vehicle in Australia towing anything at 2T and over that gets less than 14L/100. I could give mum's Peugeot 401XT a go but I think it would melt 50km in to the trip!

Haha the old "fuel cycle" biggest con of the 20th and 21st centuries. The barrel of oil, wages, and what ever else or takes to make fuel doesn't change on Tuesday morning... and then gets cheaper Friday morning! : but fuel prices gets the bowser do!!! Fuel cycle was created by the retail fuel industry to do nothing more than make more profit. The refiners don't charge more for distributable fuels on Tuesday morning - they slide with the barrel of oil and overall demand for the differing variants and that's about it. But I see 40c price swings for petrol here in SE QLD. Diesel had swung between 1.89 and about 2.03 for the last 6 weeks which is ok. Petrol 1.56 to 1.97 for 91R. What the hell haha.

Actually, the "fuel cycle" is the marketplace competition behaviour in action! Competition for market-share. Service station competition is regularly used as an everyday example for case studies in business schools. You're spot on regarding the "con" aspect: The opportunity for cartel behaviour is why the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) has an active interest in their day to day pricing. Mind you the ACCC seems to be as perplexed as the average punter!

The servos have to maintain a certain turnover of fuel for all sorts of reasons, technical and commercial. They're all "watching" each other to determine the max. price the 'market will bear'. Petrol is very price sensitive. A drop of 1-2 c/L compared with the opposition might yield an extra, for argument sake, 10,000L a day. So, a loss of $100-200 per day on increased petrol sales, might yield an additional $500 -$1,000 of in-store purchases. So the closest servos see the 1-2c/L price drop and have to match it and so on until the lowest price become unsustainable and so the price begins to climb again, usually with a thump...like the 40c/L you witnessed . Depending on traffic flows, identical brands on opposite sides of a divided road can have significant differences in price for same standard of fuel ...always trying to eke out a bit more!
True independents have almost disappeared in greater Brisbane... it's the majors who lease the large retail sites so there's a lot less 'freedom' between individual sellers of a particular brand to compete off their own bat. The majors watch the real time pricing over the whole of SE Queensland aka their specialised "fuel track" apps and make their price decisions...It's not unlike the resellers bidding on the wholesale electricity energy market... !

 

[DesertGecko]

Having floped to petrol.. somewhat on price. Unleaded is currently more expensive than diesel.. and the higher octane stuff a lot more.

 

[OGrid]

Having floped to petrol.. somewhat on price. Unleaded is currently more expensive than diesel.. and the higher octane stuff a lot more.

Yes, I noticed this yesterday.

 

[grenadierboy]

Actually, the "fuel cycle" is the marketplace competition behaviour in action! Competition for market-share. Service station competition is regularly used as an everyday example for case studies in business schools. You're spot on regarding the "con" aspect: The opportunity for cartel behaviour is why the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) has an active interest in their day to day pricing. Mind you the ACCC seems to be as perplexed as the average punter!

The servos have to maintain a certain turnover of fuel for all sorts of reasons, technical and commercial. They're all "watching" each other to determine the max. price the 'market will bear'. Petrol is very price sensitive. A drop of 1-2 c/L compared with the opposition might yield an extra, for argument sake, 10,000L a day. So, a loss of $100-200 per day on increased petrol sales, might yield an additional $500 -$1,000 of in-store purchases. So the closest servos see the 1-2c/L price drop and have to match it and so on until the lowest price become unsustainable and so the price begins to climb again, usually with a thump...like the 40c/L you witnessed . Depending on traffic flows, identical brands on opposite sides of a divided road can have significant differences in price for same standard of fuel ...always trying to eke out a bit more!
True independents have almost disappeared in greater Brisbane... it's the majors who lease the large retail sites so there's a lot less 'freedom' between individual sellers of a particular brand to compete off their own bat. The majors watch the real time pricing over the whole of SE Queensland aka their specialised "fuel track" apps and make their price decisions...It's not unlike the resellers bidding on the wholesale electricity energy market... !

My father worked in the fuel industry for 10/12 years and he told me exactly the same thing regards price changes and gaining slivers of market share; although in his time service stations relied much less on in-store purchases for profits

 

[bemax]

My father worked in the fuel industry for 10/12 years and he told me exactly the same thing regards price changes and gaining slivers of market share; although in his time service stations relied much less on in-store purchases for profits

It’s not the fuel station that earns the big money! At least since 30 years the shops are more vital for them then the fuel is.

 

[trobex]

Actually, the "fuel cycle" is the marketplace competition behaviour in action! Competition for market-share. Service station competition is regularly used as an everyday example for case studies in business schools. You're spot on regarding the "con" aspect: The opportunity for cartel behaviour is why the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) has an active interest in their day to day pricing. Mind you the ACCC seems to be as perplexed as the average punter!

The servos have to maintain a certain turnover of fuel for all sorts of reasons, technical and commercial. They're all "watching" each other to determine the max. price the 'market will bear'. Petrol is very price sensitive. A drop of 1-2 c/L compared with the opposition might yield an extra, for argument sake, 10,000L a day. So, a loss of $100-200 per day on increased petrol sales, might yield an additional $500 -$1,000 of in-store purchases. So the closest servos see the 1-2c/L price drop and have to match it and so on until the lowest price become unsustainable and so the price begins to climb again, usually with a thump...like the 40c/L you witnessed . Depending on traffic flows, identical brands on opposite sides of a divided road can have significant differences in price for same standard of fuel ...always trying to eke out a bit more!
True independents have almost disappeared in greater Brisbane... it's the majors who lease the large retail sites so there's a lot less 'freedom' between individual sellers of a particular brand to compete off their own bat. The majors watch the real time pricing over the whole of SE Queensland aka their specialised "fuel track" apps and make their price decisions...It's not unlike the resellers bidding on the wholesale electricity energy market... !

E10 was 8c/L more than Diesel today - so I laughed a little! 98R was 21c over Diesel!!!

There is a group here called HOPE FUEL - always cheapest by 5c.. at least 5c. Even beating United/7-11/Freedom.

 

[DesertGecko]

E10 was 8c/L more than Diesel today - so I laughed a little! 98R was 21c over Diesel!!!

There is a group here called HOPE FUEL - always cheapest by 5c.. at least 5c. Even beating United/7-11/Freedom.

There is none of those up here. I guess there is no Hope.

 

[trobex]

There is none of those up here. I guess there is no Hope.

Where you at Gecko? The HOPE Fuel stations are a new phenomenon and seem to be GOLD COAST based only? They are similar to PEARL ENERGY stations.
Hope only have about 7 service stations.
Pearl about 3 or 4.
Which jointly are spaced well enough here to get cheap fuel nearly all the time.

Whilst 91R is about 2.03 today at most places... HOPE was 1.87 on the same street.

Diesel just went to 1.97 here first time this low this year.

 

[Alprider]

Petrol for me, demand for diesel is growing exponentially due to the shipping/haulage of food and other essentials rising in line with the global population increase.

Methanol blends are on the rise outside of the US these days (not that I agree with taking food off the table to put petrol in my tank) so petrol prices will in my opinion rise more slowly than diesel.

The reduction in torque is not a problem for me, towing my boat or caravan with 450nm won’t be a problem!

I understand that Petrol can be in short supply in remote areas so diesel is the only option for some, but here in Europe that is not a consideration.

On another note I saw a Red field master outside Jim’s hotel here in Courchevel the other night!

 

[trobex]

Petrol for me, demand for diesel is growing exponentially due to the shipping/haulage of food and other essentials rising in line with the global population increase.

Methanol blends are on the rise outside of the US these days (not that I agree with taking food off the table to put petrol in my tank) so petrol prices will in my opinion rise more slowly than diesel.

The reduction in torque is not a problem for me, towing my boat or caravan with 450nm won’t be a problem!

I understand that Petrol can be in short supply in remote areas so diesel is the only option for some, but here in Europe that is not a consideration.

On another note I saw a Red field master outside Jim’s hotel here in Courchevel the other night!

EU is good like that - Petrol makes sense. Australia - I drive to see the folks and its 600km round trip, go see brother 2800km round trip, sister 1200km round trip etc etc haha. Diesel is good for me!