Americas Current state of US order window

[ADVer]

Hello All, New to the forum, but have spent a fair bit of time reading posts, both positive and worrisome, about the state of orders, potential delivery windows, and pricing for the US. Based on your collective knowledge and having lived on this forum far longer than me, I’d love to hear some comments/thoughts on:
- If one were to place a reservation today, what is the best and worst case timing for getting an IG? I’ve seen posts of day one reservationists expecting mid-2024 deliveries. Would the thousands of reservations ahead of me add six months to that, a year, more ??? And yes, I’m well aware I am very late to the party.
- What is the current best guesstimates for pricing for the Belstaff editions? I’ve seen as low as $65K and as high as $95K.
- Has anything leaked about the dealer network? I’ve got to believe if negotiations are in the works at automotive or other type dealerships word is going to get out.
- Similarly, whats the latest news on the vehicle actually having all the necessary certifications to drive on our roads? Having worked in the military/aerospace industry for almost 40 years I’m well aware of how much time and money certs can take.

Lastly, and to end on a positive note, as everyone on this forum is, I am very excited to see this vehicle come to life, and in a very cool way. Ramping up production and delivery globally is a huge undertaking, and one can only expect to see the kind of frustrations and disappointments that are taking place in the UK and elsewhere. Being an optimist, I think these will be worked out over time, and I think those of us that are patient and lucky enough to get one will be driving one of the coolest backcountry vehicles to hit these shores in a long time.

Cheers!

 

[IG_in_AZ]

Hello All, New to the forum, but have spent a fair bit of time reading posts, both positive and worrisome, about the state of orders, potential delivery windows, and pricing for the US. Based on your collective knowledge and having lived on this forum far longer than me, I’d love to hear some comments/thoughts on:
- If one were to place a reservation today, what is the best and worst case timing for getting an IG? I’ve seen posts of day one reservationists expecting mid-2024 deliveries. Would the thousands of reservations ahead of me add six months to that, a year, more ??? And yes, I’m well aware I am very late to the party.
- What is the current best guesstimates for pricing for the Belstaff editions? I’ve seen as low as $65K and as high as $95K.
- Has anything leaked about the dealer network? I’ve got to believe if negotiations are in the works at automotive or other type dealerships word is going to get out.
- Similarly, whats the latest news on the vehicle actually having all the necessary certifications to drive on our roads? Having worked in the military/aerospace industry for almost 40 years I’m well aware of how much time and money certs can take.

Lastly, and to end on a positive note, as everyone on this forum is, I am very excited to see this vehicle come to life, and in a very cool way. Ramping up production and delivery globally is a huge undertaking, and one can only expect to see the kind of frustrations and disappointments that are taking place in the UK and elsewhere. Being an optimist, I think these will be worked out over time, and I think those of us that are patient and lucky enough to get one will be driving one of the coolest backcountry vehicles to hit these shores in a long time.

Cheers!

From what we've been told most recently at the Prototype Drive Events (I did mine 2 weeks ago), folks at the Florida events were basically told the same info, so better likelihood, but nothing has come from Ineos in print, so take it with a large grain of salt. The day I did my drive, SJR's grandson and Lynn Calder were in SC at the Ineos North America office meeting with the folks here to discuss US pricing, among other things, but pricing was what we were told was the purpose of the trip.

To your points, and to the best of my knowledge:

Reservation holders will have priority over non-reservation holders, and should have a reasonable expectation of getting the Grenadier at MSRP. Those who go to dealers after the reservation holders get ours will be subject to whatever the dealer sets the price / market will bear, including the potential of added dealer markups. The intent is to get the early reservation holders' Grenadiers built in some semblance of order of precedence of the reservation. There are currently approximately 7000 US / CA early reservation holders. How long it will take to build those, they guessed about 3-4 months, with first deliveries in December 2023.

Pricing should be available on May 17, when the IA NA website goes live, and will open to ordering for reservation holders, with that early order window closing in June so that they can get the vehicles built for that anticipated December delivery (including transit, Customs clearance, delivery to the dealer for the handover). For now, best guesses are that the Trialmaster and Fieldmaster will be our available models, and guess around $80K for one well equipped (i.e., loaded). But, this is speculation on everyone's part because no one knows until the site goes live, and then we'll all know.

Dealers will be in the same areas as the prototype events were, because they were based on numbers of reservations holders. I'll add the map below, in case you haven't seen it. The dealer network has been in negotiation but none have been confirmed yet. They said that they were looking for regional dealers with existing multiple locations (6+) who could absorb losses for the first year or two, because being an Ineos dealer probably won't be profitable for the first couple of years. They also said that these regional dealers probably already had a dedicated used car stand alone dealership, for example, which could be easily painted blue, throw up some Ineos signs and BAM! you're a dealer.

The vehicles we test drove were PTO2 (production try-out, version 2) and were not legal for US roads. They didn't have airbags installed, for example, so couldn't be made road legal. The production vehicles will be. They said that all necessary crash testing and certifications had been done and would not impact the delivery schedule.

The test drive went awesome, as everyone here has basically said. My wife was especially won over, which was a huge win for me. Being patient will be hard, but I know that it'll be worth it in the end.

Welcome to the forum.

If anyone has any corrections, or if I've mis-remembered anything, it's not intentional. Please feel free to correct if things have changed or you were told differently.

 

[DenisM]

I think you'll discover the chap accompanying Lynn Calder is actually Sir Jim's son who has recently been promoted into the Commercial Director role after spending quite a few yrs post university working his way up in the family firm as a trader in the chemicals area....

 

[ADVer]

@IG_in_AZ , Great info, thanks very much for the reply. Question, if I make a reservation and put down the $450 tomorrow does that make me an “early reservation holder” and allow me to avoid the dealer shenanigans of ridiculous markups? Or am I too late? Thanks again!

 

[Krabby]

And IA USA is in North Carolina (not SC). Raleigh Durham area I believe.

 

[BD1]

@IG_in_AZ , Great info, thanks very much for the reply. Question, if I make a reservation and put down the $450 tomorrow does that make me an “early reservation holder” and allow me to avoid the dealer shenanigans of ridiculous markups? Or am I too late? Thanks again!

My 'guess' is yes, you will be 'protected' as an early reservation holder. The process will change once dealers are open and taking orders directly.

 

[BD1]

From what we've been told most recently at the Prototype Drive Events (I did mine 2 weeks ago), folks at the Florida events were basically told the same info, so better likelihood, but nothing has come from Ineos in print, so take it with a large grain of salt. The day I did my drive, SJR's grandson and Lynn Calder were in SC at the Ineos North America office meeting with the folks here to discuss US pricing, among other things, but pricing was what we were told was the purpose of the trip.

To your points, and to the best of my knowledge:

Reservation holders will have priority over non-reservation holders, and should have a reasonable expectation of getting the Grenadier at MSRP. Those who go to dealers after the reservation holders get ours will be subject to whatever the dealer sets the price / market will bear, including the potential of added dealer markups. The intent is to get the early reservation holders' Grenadiers built in some semblance of order of precedence of the reservation. There are currently approximately 7000 US / CA early reservation holders. How long it will take to build those, they guessed about 3-4 months, with first deliveries in December 2023.

Pricing should be available on May 17, when the IA NA website goes live, and will open to ordering for reservation holders, with that early order window closing in June so that they can get the vehicles built for that anticipated December delivery (including transit, Customs clearance, delivery to the dealer for the handover). For now, best guesses are that the Trialmaster and Fieldmaster will be our available models, and guess around $80K for one well equipped (i.e., loaded). But, this is speculation on everyone's part because no one knows until the site goes live, and then we'll all know.

Dealers will be in the same areas as the prototype events were, because they were based on numbers of reservations holders. I'll add the map below, in case you haven't seen it. The dealer network has been in negotiation but none have been confirmed yet. They said that they were looking for regional dealers with existing multiple locations (6+) who could absorb losses for the first year or two, because being an Ineos dealer probably won't be profitable for the first couple of years. They also said that these regional dealers probably already had a dedicated used car stand alone dealership, for example, which could be easily painted blue, throw up some Ineos signs and BAM! you're a dealer.

The vehicles we test drove were PTO2 (production try-out, version 2) and were not legal for US roads. They didn't have airbags installed, for example, so couldn't be made road legal. The production vehicles will be. They said that all necessary crash testing and certifications had been done and would not impact the delivery schedule.

The test drive went awesome, as everyone here has basically said. My wife was especially won over, which was a huge win for me. Being patient will be hard, but I know that it'll be worth it in the end.

Welcome to the forum.

If anyone has any corrections, or if I've mis-remembered anything, it's not intentional. Please feel free to correct if things have changed or you were told differently.


View attachment 7808141

Great summary!

As far as the 7000 US reservations, the question will be how many will convert to actual orders? Peoples plans change, we have higher interest rates, more layoffs, etc. Maybe they are factoring that in already when they say they can deliver all reservations in 3-4 months. This seems overly optimistic based on what we are seeing for Europe and Australia deliveries now and there will likely be unexpected delays.

 

[YellowLab]

@IG_in_AZ , Great info, thanks very much for the reply. Question, if I make a reservation and put down the $450 tomorrow does that make me an “early reservation holder” and allow me to avoid the dealer shenanigans of ridiculous markups? Or am I too late? Thanks again!

Knowing when and where you are in the cue is pure speculation. I was told by IG that my reservation was in the first 25 for the US (who knows) back in Sept '21. Ineos confirmed at the driving event I attended that there will be a max of 5500 per year made for the US as that production number exempts IG from certain requirements, which I get. There are some 6500 reservations in the US now, which IG thinks some 60-65% will turn to solid orders. If that is the case if you put in your reservation - they will make ~450 per month for the US. So if 65% sign up - you would make production in the first year - perhaps for delivery in 3-4Q.

Hope that helps - my opinion is worth about $0.31 these days...

 

[YellowLab]

Great summary!

As far as the 7000 US reservations, the question will be how many will convert to actual orders? Peoples plans change, we have higher interest rates, more layoffs, etc. Maybe they are factoring that in already when they say they can deliver all reservations in 3-4 months. This seems overly optimistic based on what we are seeing for Europe and Australia deliveries now and there will likely be unexpected delays.

Ineos thought 60-65% would convert to firm orders with the others flaking

 

[IG_in_AZ]

@IG_in_AZ , Great info, thanks very much for the reply. Question, if I make a reservation and put down the $450 tomorrow does that make me an “early reservation holder” and allow me to avoid the dealer shenanigans of ridiculous markups? Or am I too late? Thanks again!

@ADVer This exact question was just answered in another thread I just read:

https://www.theineosforum.com/threads/sick-of-waiting.12410392/post-1333166739

 

[sully677]

Im a reservation holder and my current 04 4Runner is heading to heaven soon. Not sure if I can hold out until early 2024. Tempted to go with a Disco 4.

 

[IG_in_AZ]

Im a reservation holder and my current 04 4Runner is heading to heaven soon. Not sure if I can hold out until early 2024. Tempted to go with a Disco 4.

Here you go:

 

[ADVer]

Knowing when and where you are in the cue is pure speculation. I was told by IG that my reservation was in the first 25 for the US (who knows) back in Sept '21. Ineos confirmed at the driving event I attended that there will be a max of 5500 per year made for the US as that production number exempts IG from certain requirements, which I get. There are some 6500 reservations in the US now, which IG thinks some 60-65% will turn to solid orders. If that is the case if you put in your reservation - they will make ~450 per month for the US. So if 65% sign up - you would make production in the first year - perhaps for delivery in 3-4Q.

Hope that helps - my opinion is worth about $0.31 these days...

@YellowLab (and/or others), I understand that this is all pure speculation, but what else is there to do while we in the U.S. wait for the next actionable steps. If 65% of 6,500 reservation holders convert, that's 4,225. In order to build that in 3-4 months that would be ~1,000/month for the U.S. alone. I wonder if this is realistic, or if it's closer to the 450/month that you guessed earlier. If it's 450/month and they start building U.S. units in June it would be March of 2024 before they satisfied all the reservations and a late reservation holder such as myself would get a delivery. If they can build 1,000/month, which IA implied, it would be closer to October of 2023. Any thoughts on what might be more realistic? I'm curious if they have a separate manufacturing line set up for U.S. bound units or if they are all similar enough to be built on the same line. Unrelated question regarding payments, based on what's taken place in the UK/AUS, etc. when is the first payment due and for how much?, i.e. is it upon order and 10% of the price, upon contract signing??? Thanks again!

 

[ADVAW8S]

@YellowLab (and/or others), I understand that this is all pure speculation, but what else is there to do while we in the U.S. wait for the next actionable steps. If 65% of 6,500 reservation holders convert, that's 4,225. In order to build that in 3-4 months that would be ~1,000/month for the U.S. alone. I wonder if this is realistic, or if it's closer to the 450/month that you guessed earlier. If it's 450/month and they start building U.S. units in June it would be March of 2024 before they satisfied all the reservations and a late reservation holder such as myself would get a delivery. If they can build 1,000/month, which IA implied, it would be closer to October of 2023. Any thoughts on what might be more realistic? I'm curious if they have a separate manufacturing line set up for U.S. bound units or if they are all similar enough to be built on the same line. Unrelated question regarding payments, based on what's taken place in the UK/AUS, etc. when is the first payment due and for how much?, i.e. is it upon order and 10% of the price, upon contract signing??? Thanks again!

Here in the US, we will be following the dealer model. Meaning we will order from an established dealer and at that time put down a good-faith deposit. Normally that is 5 grand.

 

[YellowLab]

Here in the US, we will be following the dealer model. Meaning we will order from an established dealer and at that time put down a good-faith deposit. Normally that is 5 grand.

Yes - unless you have a reservation. The Ineos rep mentioned that they still do not have dealers ready in the US - so deposits ($4500) would go to Ineos and depending on where the dealers are you would pick up the car from a dealer or the MFR somewhere in the region you live. It's getting ready to showtime for the car - they still have a long way to go in the US from a dealer and servicing perspective.

 

[Norb-TX]

What kind of cars are you guys ordering that requires a $4500 deposit? High end cars here are at $1000, and regular cars more like $500?

 

[YellowLab]

What kind of cars are you guys ordering that requires a $4500 deposit? High end cars here are at $1000, and regular cars more like $500?

If you want a Grenadier - that is what the deposit to secure your order spot will cost. Otherwise go to a dealer - pay potentially double the sticker price if you can even find one.

 

[painter]

Knowing when and where you are in the cue is pure speculation. I was told by IG that my reservation was in the first 25 for the US (who knows) back in Sept '21. Ineos confirmed at the driving event I attended that there will be a max of 5500 per year made for the US as that production number exempts IG from certain requirements, which I get. There are some 6500 reservations in the US now, which IG thinks some 60-65% will turn to solid orders. If that is the case if you put in your reservation - they will make ~450 per month for the US. So if 65% sign up - you would make production in the first year - perhaps for delivery in 3-4Q.

Hope that helps - my opinion is worth about $0.31 these days...

@YellowLab (and/or others), I understand that this is all pure speculation, but what else is there to do while we in the U.S. wait for the next actionable steps. If 65% of 6,500 reservation holders convert, that's 4,225. In order to build that in 3-4 months that would be ~1,000/month for the U.S. alone. I wonder if this is realistic, or if it's closer to the 450/month that you guessed earlier. If it's 450/month and they start building U.S. units in June it would be March of 2024 before they satisfied all the reservations and a late reservation holder such as myself would get a delivery. If they can build 1,000/month, which IA implied, it would be closer to October of 2023. Any thoughts on what might be more realistic? I'm curious if they have a separate manufacturing line set up for U.S. bound units or if they are all similar enough to be built on the same line. Unrelated question regarding payments, based on what's taken place in the UK/AUS, etc. when is the first payment due and for how much?, i.e. is it upon order and 10% of the price, upon contract signing??? Thanks again!

I wonder what that early reservation does for you ?

Probably got an invitation to a drive event, yes.

When the order banks are open to reservation holders and say 500 place an order first day does that new sequence - of ordering - take precedence ? Or might the original reservation sequence still have some bearing, and if so for how long ?

I wouldn't be surprised if I was among the first reservation holders in my country. Was hoping to test drive before the order banks open per narrative at that time.

Those test drives were supposed to be last last year but as I understand, shortages and supply chain issues made if difficult to test drive those PT02s that were on display here earlier that year. . Now there are to be in June.

So I'm thinking that I, along with a whole bunch of other folks, might want to place an order right out of the gate to best the chances of an early delivery.

That could mean a whole bunch of orders (overwhelming ?) for IA followed by drop outs after a cooling off period of reconsideration and reflection on the part of potential buyers.

What might that do to the sequence. Who knows...

 

[YellowLab]

I wonder what that early reservation does for you ?

Probably got an invitation to a drive event, yes.

When the order banks are open to reservation holders and say 500 place an order first day does that new sequence - of ordering - take precedence ? Or might the original reservation sequence still have some bearing, and if so for how long ?

I wouldn't be surprised if I was among the first reservation holders in my country. Was hoping to test drive before the order banks open per narrative at that time.

Those test drives were supposed to be last last year but as I understand, shortages and supply chain issues made if difficult to test drive those PT02s that were on display here earlier that year. . Now there are to be in June.

So I'm thinking that I, along with a whole bunch of other folks, might want to place an order right out of the gate to best the chances of an early delivery.

That could mean a whole bunch of orders (overwhelming ?) for IA followed by drop outs after a cooling off period of reconsideration and reflection on the part of potential buyers.

What might that do to the sequence. Who knows...

Reservation lets you be the first to order

 

[painter]

Reservation lets you be the first to order

Each of the 6,500 will individually get their turn to order.

Or all of them at once ?