Battery SOC setpoint very low

[CHM]

Are you sure about that? I installed a cheap battery monitoring with Bluetooth. And the graph on my phone shows mostly parallel loading and unloading data for both batteries.

Hi Bemax, I think that is because "the generator is charging" 100% of the time. Even if only 3A, it is still charging.
Thanks for the graphs, very interesting.

 

[RYAustralia]

Hi all

I experience the following symptoms with my factory dual battery setup.
Note: I ride around with a ARB fridge pretty much permanently connected and on. So I am inadvertantly testing the system long term.

Symptoms:

The battery charge display reports my SOC as 63% with a charge current of 3A. Sometimes this setpoint moves, the highest I have seen it at is 83%.
Initially, the charge current is very large (>80A) but quickly drops to these trickle charge levels.

My Point of View to Ineos:

I am ignoring the fact that the dual battery setup architecture is not what we would typically prefer in the South African and Australian markets (probably elsewhere).
The selected architecture does not isolate the primary and secondary battery to create two 12 DC buses. It effectively combines the two batteries in a 200 aH battery by connecting the two batteries in parallel. This means that the secondary battery has to have the same chemistry as the primary battery. It also implies that the charge current and SOC we see on the screen is that of the combined 200 aH battery. Again, this post is not about this architecture choice.

The symptoms I experience whereby my charging system thinks it's job is done at 63% SOC is effectively limiting me to use 13% of my 200aH battery. This is because the effective deep-level discharge of the provided batteries is 50% (confirmed by the multiple alarms I have experienced). This renders the system inadequate for propper overlanding use where I would typically have lights etc. in addition to my fridge.

I believe what I bought was meant for overlanding and now Ineos seems to be implying this system objective is to help the vehicle start.

The solution/blame does not lie in fiddling with the provided battery combiner as it is not responsible for charging the battery. The battery is charged by the smart alternator which is controlled by the system software (which I think is provided by BMW).

The variable setpoint experience I have had indicates a bug.

The lower than 100% SOC setpoint indicates some attempt to protect the batteries.

My Experience with Ineos:

My vehicle has been in 4 of 5 times for this issue. Both batteries have been replaced. Generally, the local dealer has no idea how the electrics work, which I suspect is a training issue from Ineos.

This week an "expert" looked at my vehicle and took measurements on his way back to Europe.

Based on my local support people's response when picking up the car they are going to tell me it works as designed

My Request:

I have the dual battery setup in a diesel trialmaster. Mine sits around 95% - 100% most of the time. Lowest I’ve ever seen it is 85% when it sat with interior lights on getting wrapped in pof for a few days.

 

[Rok_Dr]

My car’s SOC varies between 70-90%, can run to almost 100% on long trips and often hangs around the low 70s when doing shorter trips around town. Ineos have advised me this is normal. That said I reckon not getting above 63% is not normal. The following post in another thread by @NQ94 has a bmw document attachment which explains how the BMW BMS and smart alternator work. Worth a read.

https://www.theineosforum.com/threads/battery-charge-limitation.12415425/post-1333276455

Cheers
Steve

 

[ipcrss]

My car’s SOC varies between 70-90%, can run to almost 100% on long trips and often hangs around the low 70s when doing shorter trips around town. Ineos have advised me this is normal. That said I reckon not getting above 63% is not normal. The following post in another thread by @NQ94 has a bmw document attachment which explains how the BMW BMS and smart alternator work. Worth a read.

https://www.theineosforum.com/threads/battery-charge-limitation.12415425/post-1333276455

Cheers
Steve

I see from the bmw doc, an AGM battery is expected...in a bmw

An IBS (intelligent battery sensor) is installed in
all cases.
A vehicle battery with AGM technology is
always used due to its higher cyclic stability.
The cyclic strength of the AGM battery is
three times higher.
The control process of the IGR or vehicles with
MSA (automatic engine start) makes such a
vehicle battery necessary.
3 The battery will age prematurely if a
"normal" battery is installed. 1
Deactivation of intelligent alternator
control
The intelligent alternator control is deactivated
under following conditions:
• Battery charge level too low
• Ambient temperature too low
• Deactivation in stages as soon as the AGM
battery has reached the maximum cyclic
stability
3 The intelligent alternator control must be
deactivated during an alternator test
conducted with the BMW diagnosis system.

 

[255/85]

It should be noted that Ineos has gone with a quite large EF battery rather than an AGM. Start/Stop requirements were one of the reasons given.

My takeaway from the article is: Always end your trip with a long coast down a hill.

 

[CloudVisual]

I'm having a real mixed bag of issues with my battery.

Constant SoC alerts and the battery just sits at around 60%. I've charged the battery fully up and the SoC still reads 60-70%.

One really really strange issue is that when checking the battery levels before charging, with the vehicle turned off, a multimeter reading from +ive post to a screw was 11.8v. But a reading from +ive post to radiator was 13.5v. I can't make sense of this at all.

Anyway, took it in for warranty work and they had the audacity to say that leaving the aux switch on is what's causing the 30-40% drain on the battery, but failed to acknowledge that I charged the battery to 100% (according to the good quality/reliable charger). Was backed up with a multimeter reading. The aux switch is connected to a magsafe car charger and the BATT switch is off.

It's undoubtedly the IBS giving a bad reading, but my service centre isn't accepting of this.

 

[Quartermaster]

I got a new battery under warranty. Dealer said, the old one did not take up enough current. The SoC is now always much higher, all good now.
But the drain is still there (not always but maybe every second time leaving the car). BUT: if i turn on the ignition on again for a split second after shutting down the engine, i have now drain at all, never. Tested it now for at least 50 times. That´s my temporary fix until next dealer visit in six month.

 

[landmannnn]

I'm having a real mixed bag of issues with my battery.

Constant SoC alerts and the battery just sits at around 60%. I've charged the battery fully up and the SoC still reads 60-70%.

One really really strange issue is that when checking the battery levels before charging, with the vehicle turned off, a multimeter reading from +ive post to a screw was 11.8v. But a reading from +ive post to radiator was 13.5v. I can't make sense of this at all.

Anyway, took it in for warranty work and they had the audacity to say that leaving the aux switch on is what's causing the 30-40% drain on the battery, but failed to acknowledge that I charged the battery to 100% (according to the good quality/reliable charger). Was backed up with a multimeter reading. The aux switch is connected to a magsafe car charger and the BATT switch is off.

It's undoubtedly the IBS giving a bad reading, but my service centre isn't accepting of this.

What might help..

Mine was reading the low 70s on the SoC since I got it. I put on a battery charger which took it to the high 80's when showing charged.

I then dug out a low current noco charger with a number of charging stages including a conditioning function.

After a couple of days it took the SOC to 99%, it hasn't dropped below 80% since.(I understand that 80% is the target for this system)

 

[nuclearmonkey]

FWIW, my starter was always between 95% and 100% (usually 100) driving around... even though most of my drives are 20 minutes or less. My car was in a shop getting work done, and over the course of the two weeks it was there, the battery drained to absolute zero. No lights, computer, nothing. We jumped the car and I let it charge all the way up. Also put on an external Victron charger. Now, driving around I am hovering between 88-93%. Charge drops to 1-2amps at around the 88% mark. Will swap with the other battery and see if the charge profile is the same, or different and report back

 

[CloudVisual]

What might help..

Mine was reading the low 70s on the SoC since I got it. I put on a battery charger which took it to the high 80's when showing charged.

I then dug out a low current noco charger with a number of charging stages including a conditioning function.

After a couple of days it took the SOC to 99%, it hasn't dropped below 80% since.(I understand that 80% is the target for this system)

This is what is infuriating me about this battery system. A lead acid battery is happy to be at 100% and wants to be fully charged for longevity, this isn't a lithium battery, which would benefit from an 80% SoC. So why is the IBS trying to keep this at 80% and ultimately leave someone at risk of running flat sooner than expected.

I've got the Noco 5A. I'll give it a go on the battery conditioning setting.

 

[landmannnn]

This is what is infuriating me about this battery system. A lead acid battery is happy to be at 100% and wants to be fully charged for longevity, this isn't a lithium battery, which would benefit from an 80% SoC. So why is the IBS trying to keep this at 80% and ultimately leave someone at risk of running flat sooner than expected.

I've got the Noco 5A. I'll give it a go on the battery conditioning setting.

I think it is those emissions targets again. Less battery charge means less power to the alternator so giving off a tiny bit less greenhouse gas.

 

[Clark Kent]

The <100% SOC has been discussed on the forum several times. Search for BMS and IBS.
It's a carryover with the BMW engines and electrical system. The Grenadier (and presumably the Quartermaster) has a Battery Management System (BMS) with an Intelligent Battery Sensor (IBS) mounted on the negative post of the main battery. The IBS monitors all current flows in and out of the battery. The BMS and IBS manages the smart alternator output during vehicle operation to maintain the battery SOC at around 80% with some variation. The goal of the smart alternator + BMS + IBS is to ensure there is always enough battery charge to meet the electrical demands of the vehicle including stop-start, without unnecessary charging of the battery to ~100% SOC which increases alternator load and fuel consumption, and decreases battery life. This strategy is primarily to increase fuel efficiency.
The other purpose of keeping some SOC in reserve is for regenerative charging during overrun (closed throttle, deceleration, braking).
To see this in operation observe the trip computer instant fuel reading and the off-road electrical screen charging rate. During overrun the fuel consumption drops to zero and the charging rate rises because the alternator output is temporarily increased to send 'free' current to the battery without using fuel. BMW has done this for years. It's not unique to Ineos vehicles.

When charging the battery it's essential that you don't connect the charger lead directly to the negative battery post. Positive is ok, negative is not. Connect the negative to a body earth to ensure the IBS is in-circuit and can sense the charging current. If the IBS is unaware that the battery has been charged the displayed SOC will be wrong. I assume this self-resolves over time but the BMS and SOC will be messed up in the interim.

More on the IBS in @DCPU's post here and battery charging in @Xrford's post here (and many other threads).
You can read more about BMW's intelligent alternator control in @NQ94's post here.

 

[NQ94]

The <100% SOC has been discussed on the forum several times. Search for BMS and IBS.
It's a carryover with the BMW engines and electrical system. The Grenadier (and presumably the Quartermaster) has a Battery Management System (BMS) with an Intelligent Battery Sensor (IBS) mounted on the negative post of the main battery. The IBS monitors all current flows in and out of the battery. The BMS and IBS manages the smart alternator output during vehicle operation to maintain the battery SOC at around 80% with some variation. The goal of the smart alternator + BMS + IBS is to ensure there is always enough battery charge to meet the electrical demands of the vehicle including stop-start, without unnecessary charging of the battery to ~100% SOC which increases alternator load and fuel consumption, and decreases battery life. This strategy is primarily to increase fuel efficiency.
The other purpose of keeping some SOC in reserve is for regenerative charging during overrun (closed throttle, deceleration, braking).
To see this in operation observe the trip computer instant fuel reading and the off-road electrical screen charging rate. During overrun the fuel consumption drops to zero and the charging rate rises because the alternator output is temporarily increased to send 'free' current to the battery without using fuel. BMW has done this for years. It's not unique to Ineos vehicles.

When charging the battery it's essential that you don't connect the charger lead directly to the negative battery post. Positive is ok, negative is not. Connect the negative to a body earth to ensure the IBS is in-circuit and can sense the charging current. If the IBS is unaware that the battery has been charged the displayed SOC will be wrong. I assume this self-resolves over time but the BMS and SOC will be messed up in the interim.

More on the IBS in @DCPU's post here and battery charging in @Xrford's post here (and many other threads).
You can read more about BMW's intelligent alternator control in @NQ94's post here.

It would be interesting to find information about changes, if any, to the BMW police and emergency service vehicles charging profile and factory guidelines for dual battery set ups as this may be a better profile for an Ineos. Emergency vehicles would have a lot of short runs and high electrical demand at idle or ignition off once at an incident.
The info I posted a while ago is about 10 years old there will likely be some changes for current systems. It is difficult to find current information from BMW without paying for a technical portal access.

 

[Rok_Dr]

That is an excellent summary @Clark Kent. Well done.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Clark Kent]

It would be interesting to find information about changes, if any, to the BMW police and emergency service vehicles charging profile and factory guidelines for dual battery set ups as this may be a better profile for an Ineos. Emergency vehicles would have a lot of short runs and high electrical demand at idle or ignition off once at an incident.
The info I posted a while ago is about 10 years old there will likely be some changes for current systems. It is difficult to find current information from BMW without paying for a technical portal access.

My agent is also a BMW dealer and advises they can adjust the SOC target via iDrive in BMW vehicles which suggests there is scope to move the set point. Whether Ineos can access that in the BMW DDE/DME from their side of the gateway might be a constraint.

Yes it's an old doc but still useful for understanding the power management process .

 

[CloudVisual]

The BMS and IBS manages the smart alternator output during vehicle operation to maintain the battery SOC at around 80% with some variation. The goal of the smart alternator + BMS + IBS is to ensure there is always enough battery charge to meet the electrical demands of the vehicle including stop-start, without unnecessary charging of the battery to ~100% SOC which increases alternator load and fuel consumption, and decreases battery life. This strategy is primarily to increase fuel efficiency.

If this is the case, it's a disgrace. A utility off road vehicle should have the option to be able to be fully charged. The battery should be at 100% to meet the needs of the user, not some fuel efficiency trick (which must be minuscule).

I used to laugh about the new Defender running flat and bricking because it couldn't handle a week camping with the doors opening and closing, but I'm pretty embarrassed that my Grenadier won't ever see a fully charged battery.

After my latest service and software update, the maximum SoC has dropped from 82% to 70%. The recharge now drops off to 0A as soon as it hits 70%.

 

[Skydance]

If this is the case, it's a disgrace. A utility off road vehicle should have the option to be able to be fully charged. The battery should be at 100% to meet the needs of the user, not some fuel efficiency trick (which must be minuscule).

I used to laugh about the new Defender running flat and bricking because it couldn't handle a week camping with the doors opening and closing, but I'm pretty embarrassed that my Grenadier won't ever see a fully charged battery.

After my latest service and software update, the maximum SoC has dropped from 82% to 70%. The recharge now drops off to 0A as soon as it hits 70%.

That’s not normal. My 2023 diesel model charges strong right upto 80% then drops down to 1 or 2 amps. So it charges fine but discharges quite quickly when you keep opening and closing doors as it reboots the dashboard and interior lighting. That’s modern day dashboard screens for you. I bet if the Ineos didn’t have this screen showing the SOC, none of us would never of known.

 

[CloudVisual]

I bet if the Ineos didn’t have this screen showing the SOC, none of us would never of known.

This is exactly why my smart meter lives in the cupboard, well out of sight.