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Auxiliary Lights in the Grill - High Power LED light upgrade without any cutting (now available on the Forum Store)

ZEN_OWT

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For the group, I wonder what any of you think about running Baja LP4's in the auxillaries. A concern might be the side of these lights (image below), would the wider edges shining on the bezel melt it? I don't think there is a direct beam on the side of these lights though.

Or maybe just push the light forward a little bit so it sits out of the bezel? Interested in thoughts. I'm a big fan of Baja, and have an absurd amount on my 4Runner.
 

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anand

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maybe just push the light forward a little bit so it sits out of the bezel?
The LP4 would need to protrude almost 1.5" from the grille for the side lights to be useful if I remember the drawings correctly
 

ozziepom

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I've attached a few more pics below showing:
- the various LED lights I experimented with (mostly PAR46 and a few pods)
- some install details
- the tight fit inside the grill light bucket
- the intensity of these new auxiliary lights compared to the headlights (hi beams)

I plan to install the next proto tomorrow then order a batch of brackets to send out. Thanks to everyone who volunteered to test them. I will DM people probably next week to figure out who is serious. I will ask you to source the lights yourself (~$80) and commit to installing the kit within a week of receipt. Your thoughtful feedback on the install process and any possible improvements is requested.

If anyone finds a good pod light candidate from a high-end light manufacturer, please message me. It would be great for people to have some choices.

@Stu_Barnes I wonder if you are following this. I think a bracket kit would be a great product for forum members, as it seems like there is a demand out there for a cost-effective upgrade path. Power(ful aux lights) to the people!
@BenTN I am super interested and been looking at options here and there. Happy to be part of the proto process and look at light options here in Australia, or finding a fabricator and producing a bracket here if you were looking at a volume option
 

Ovrland Bill

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As a desert dweller I am concerned about heat dissipation with any of the ‘pod light replacement’ ideas that have been presented (melted plastic ‘buckets’?).
 

BenTN

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As a desert dweller I am concerned about heat dissipation with any of the ‘pod light replacement’ ideas that have been presented (melted plastic ‘buckets’?).
Smart man. I share your concern.

Ineos has completed engineering and validation on this vehicle that the aftermarket will never match. Modifying our brand new Grenadiers by installing a prototype light setup is risky. If a person is not comfortable with that, I hope they wait for something much more proven than what I am showing here.

I'm testing a pair of 80W (each) lights installed in these plastic buckets on my Grenadier right now. Few pod lights of this size consume more than 80W, which means these are probably near the high end of the heat range as well. I have my latest metal bracket designs in hand now and I plan to complete some real-world usage tests this weekend. I think the crucial test is lights on in high ambient temps with minimal airflow (vehicle stationary) and a hot idling engine. I will have to create these temps artificially since summer is not happening here yet. My approach is not scientific and I will not instrument the test nor analyze any data. I will simply be able to report that the grill melts, or it doesn't melt. This is not an impressive engineering protocol LOL.

Ineos did much more sophisticated validation of every key component of your car than what I am describing. Think carefully before you mess with it.

Personally, I choose to mess with it. For me that's part of the fun of owning this amazing vehicle. I'm excited to help discover what works, and I accept that I might discover what doesn't.

I will report the results here. If I melt my grill I will share the pics!
 
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Cheshire cat

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Smart man. I share your concern.

Ineos has completed engineering and validation on this vehicle that that the aftermarket will never match. Modifying our brand new Grenadiers by installing a prototype light setup is risky. If a person is not comfortable with that, I hope they wait for something much more proven than what I am showing here.

I'm testing a pair of 80W lights installed in these plastic buckets on my Grenadier right now. Few pod lights of this size consume more than 80W, which means these are probably near the high end of the heat range as well. I have my latest metal bracket designs in hand now and I plan to complete some real-world usage tests this weekend. I think the crucial test is lights on in high ambient temps with minimal airflow (vehicle stationary) and a hot idling engine. I will have to create these temps artificially since summer is not happening here yet. My approach is not scientific and I will not instrument the test nor analyze any data. I will simply be able to report that the grill melts, or it doesn't melt. This is not an impressive engineering protocol LOL.

Ineos did much more sophisticated validation of every key component of your car than what I am describing. Think carefully before you mess with it.

Personally, I choose to mess with it. For me that's part of the fun of owning this amazing vehicle. I'm excited to help discover what works, and I accept that I might discover what doesn't.

I will report the results here. If I melt my grill I will share the pics!
Hi Ben
If this is any help regarding material from which grill has been manufactured. Please see below:

Upcoming rugged Grenadier 4x4 features tough ASA polymer from INEOS Styrolution​


Frankfurt, Germany

  • Luran® S: Superior UV resistance and heat resistance
  • Material durability makes it ideal for the robust INEOS Grenadier 4X4

INEOS Styrolution, the global leader in styrenics, has today announced that its ASA[1] polymer Luran® S product has been selected by INEOS Automotive as the material of choice for the front grille of its upcoming Grenadier 4X4.
INEOS Automotive was established to meet demand for a rugged and uncompromising off-roader, designed to conquer the world’s harshest environments. The INEOS Grenadier, which is on track to begin series production in Autumn, is designed to be a capable, durable and reliable working tool, while also offering the comfort, refinement and reliability expected of a modern vehicle.
Luran S is up to the challenge, offering superior UV, heat and chemical resistance. In addition, Luran S provides appropriate impact strength and dimensional stability to make it the best material for the job.
Donna Falconer, Head of Product at INEOS Automotive says: “We have the highest expectations of the materials we use for the Grenadier. Luran S fulfills them all. Not only does it deliver superior performance in the harshest of environments, it also enables a high quality finish and appearance.”
Christophe Ginss, Sales Director Automotive Styrenic Specialties EMEA at INEOS Styrolution comments: “We are very excited to be part of the journey the INEOS Group has embarked on. Like our colleagues at INEOS Automotive, we focus on delivering products with an uncompromising quality.”
[1] ASA: acrylonitrile styrene acrylate
ABOUT INEOS STYROLUTION
INEOS Styrolution is the leading global styrenics supplier, with a focus on styrene monomer, polystyrene, ABS Standard and styrenic specialties. With world-class production facilities and more than 90 years of experience, INEOS Styrolution helps its customers succeed by offering solutions, designed to give them a competitive edge in their markets. At the same time, these innovative and sustainable best-in-class solutions help make the circular economy for styrenics a reality. The company provides styrenic applications for many everyday products across a broad range of industries, including automotive, electronics, household, construction, healthcare, packaging and toys/sports/leisure. In 2021, sales were at 6 billion euros. INEOS Styrolution employs approximately 3,600 people and operates 20 production sites in ten countries.
For futher information contact:

Name : Dr. Ralf Leinemann
Position : Global Manager PR & Marketing Communications
Phone Number : work +49 69 5095501366
Email : ralf.leinemann@ineos.com

Found this on google:​

Is ASA heat resistant?


Thanks to the high-temperature resistance up to 93 °C, ASA is a great choice for heat-stressed parts.
 

BoiseIdaho

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Smart man. I share your concern.

Ineos has completed engineering and validation on this vehicle that that the aftermarket will never match. Modifying our brand new Grenadiers by installing a prototype light setup is risky. If a person is not comfortable with that, I hope they wait for something much more proven than what I am showing here.

I'm testing a pair of 80W lights installed in these plastic buckets on my Grenadier right now. Few pod lights of this size consume more than 80W, which means these are probably near the high end of the heat range as well. I have my latest metal bracket designs in hand now and I plan to complete some real-world usage tests this weekend. I think the crucial test is lights on in high ambient temps with minimal airflow (vehicle stationary) and a hot idling engine. I will have to create these temps artificially since summer is not happening here yet. My approach is not scientific and I will not instrument the test nor analyze any data. I will simply be able to report that the grill melts, or it doesn't melt. This is not an impressive engineering protocol LOL.

Ineos did much more sophisticated validation of every key component of your car than what I am describing. Think carefully before you mess with it.

Personally, I choose to mess with it. For me that's part of the fun of owning this amazing vehicle. I'm excited to help discover what works, and I accept that I might discover what doesn't.

I will report the results here. If I melt my grill I will share the pics!
Thanks for all of your work on this! I’m totally in on the light upgrade.
 

Ovrland Bill

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Hi Ben
If this is any help regarding material from which grill has been manufactured. Please see below:

Upcoming rugged Grenadier 4x4 features tough ASA polymer from INEOS Styrolution​


Frankfurt, Germany

  • Luran® S: Superior UV resistance and heat resistance
  • Material durability makes it ideal for the robust INEOS Grenadier 4X4

INEOS Styrolution, the global leader in styrenics, has today announced that its ASA[1] polymer Luran® S product has been selected by INEOS Automotive as the material of choice for the front grille of its upcoming Grenadier 4X4.
INEOS Automotive was established to meet demand for a rugged and uncompromising off-roader, designed to conquer the world’s harshest environments. The INEOS Grenadier, which is on track to begin series production in Autumn, is designed to be a capable, durable and reliable working tool, while also offering the comfort, refinement and reliability expected of a modern vehicle.
Luran S is up to the challenge, offering superior UV, heat and chemical resistance. In addition, Luran S provides appropriate impact strength and dimensional stability to make it the best material for the job.
Donna Falconer, Head of Product at INEOS Automotive says: “We have the highest expectations of the materials we use for the Grenadier. Luran S fulfills them all. Not only does it deliver superior performance in the harshest of environments, it also enables a high quality finish and appearance.”
Christophe Ginss, Sales Director Automotive Styrenic Specialties EMEA at INEOS Styrolution comments: “We are very excited to be part of the journey the INEOS Group has embarked on. Like our colleagues at INEOS Automotive, we focus on delivering products with an uncompromising quality.”
[1] ASA: acrylonitrile styrene acrylate
ABOUT INEOS STYROLUTION
INEOS Styrolution is the leading global styrenics supplier, with a focus on styrene monomer, polystyrene, ABS Standard and styrenic specialties. With world-class production facilities and more than 90 years of experience, INEOS Styrolution helps its customers succeed by offering solutions, designed to give them a competitive edge in their markets. At the same time, these innovative and sustainable best-in-class solutions help make the circular economy for styrenics a reality. The company provides styrenic applications for many everyday products across a broad range of industries, including automotive, electronics, household, construction, healthcare, packaging and toys/sports/leisure. In 2021, sales were at 6 billion euros. INEOS Styrolution employs approximately 3,600 people and operates 20 production sites in ten countries.
For futher information contact:

Name : Dr. Ralf Leinemann
Position : Global Manager PR & Marketing Communications
Phone Number : work +49 69 5095501366
Email : ralf.leinemann@ineos.com

Found this on google:​

Is ASA heat resistant?


Thanks to the high-temperature resistance up to 93 °C, ASA is a great choice for heat-stressed parts.
Thanks you for this research, it is good to known how heat tolerant the grill material is. With regard to placing LED lights in the existing Aux Lights ‘pods’, an adequate flow of ambient air to their cooling fins may be a limiting factor for the lights themselves.
 

parb

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This sounds legit. If there is room for more participants (i can wait to a second run) count me in. I haven't yet taken delivery, but this was something i would change on my car when it arrives.

Great work!
Use an IR thermometer and measure the plastic bezel temperature. I small indoors garage is a great spot to test these things in, it will quickly heat up there.
80W each means that at typical LED efficiency rates that it outputs 66W of heat. A decent amount of heat so worthwhile to measure the housing to see how how it actually gets after lets say half an hour or so.
 

Stu_Barnes

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Smart man. I share your concern.

Ineos has completed engineering and validation on this vehicle that the aftermarket will never match. Modifying our brand new Grenadiers by installing a prototype light setup is risky. If a person is not comfortable with that, I hope they wait for something much more proven than what I am showing here.

I'm testing a pair of 80W (each) lights installed in these plastic buckets on my Grenadier right now. Few pod lights of this size consume more than 80W, which means these are probably near the high end of the heat range as well. I have my latest metal bracket designs in hand now and I plan to complete some real-world usage tests this weekend. I think the crucial test is lights on in high ambient temps with minimal airflow (vehicle stationary) and a hot idling engine. I will have to create these temps artificially since summer is not happening here yet. My approach is not scientific and I will not instrument the test nor analyze any data. I will simply be able to report that the grill melts, or it doesn't melt. This is not an impressive engineering protocol LOL.

Ineos did much more sophisticated validation of every key component of your car than what I am describing. Think carefully before you mess with it.

Personally, I choose to mess with it. For me that's part of the fun of owning this amazing vehicle. I'm excited to help discover what works, and I accept that I might discover what doesn't.

I will report the results here. If I melt my grill I will share the pics!
If you melt your grill I’ll buy you a new one…..
 
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Smart man. I share your concern.

Ineos has completed engineering and validation on this vehicle that the aftermarket will never match. Modifying our brand new Grenadiers by installing a prototype light setup is risky. If a person is not comfortable with that, I hope they wait for something much more proven than what I am showing here.

I'm testing a pair of 80W (each) lights installed in these plastic buckets on my Grenadier right now. Few pod lights of this size consume more than 80W, which means these are probably near the high end of the heat range as well. I have my latest metal bracket designs in hand now and I plan to complete some real-world usage tests this weekend. I think the crucial test is lights on in high ambient temps with minimal airflow (vehicle stationary) and a hot idling engine. I will have to create these temps artificially since summer is not happening here yet. My approach is not scientific and I will not instrument the test nor analyze any data. I will simply be able to report that the grill melts, or it doesn't melt. This is not an impressive engineering protocol LOL.

Ineos did much more sophisticated validation of every key component of your car than what I am describing. Think carefully before you mess with it.

Personally, I choose to mess with it. For me that's part of the fun of owning this amazing vehicle. I'm excited to help discover what works, and I accept that I might discover what doesn't.

I will report the results here. If I melt my grill I will share the pics!
EVERY key component?
lol
 

BenTN

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If you melt your grill I’ll buy you a new one…..

I think you are safe.

I spent most of the past weekend in the woods using the Grenadier the way God intended: Driving forest service roads, exploring rocky trails, crossing creeks, and camping in the back of the car. I left the 80W (each) Aux. lights on most of the time to see if I could accumulate any heat in the grill/buckets. Unfortunately (for this purpose) the ambient temps are mild (70F / 21C max) in the US Southeast this week, so this was not much of a worst-case test. However I was never able to even get the heat sinks warm to the touch. So far the LEDs just don't seem to generate much heat. They were also very solid mounted there in the plastic grill, and the metal mounting brackets performed as expected. No noticeable vibration of the light, even on some very rough surfaces.

I intend to perform some more rigorous heat testing, but that will have to wait until next week for various reasons. Thank you to @Cheshire cat for looking up the material that the grill is molded from. That is useful, and a bit more digging into the ASA used for molding the grill (Luran S) indicates that the Heat Deflection Temp is about 205F / 96C. For perspective, consider that you can't touch something that is 140F for more than a few seconds without being burned. I'm confident that light pod manufacturers are sizing/designing the heat sink for their lights so that the surface won't get anywhere close to skin-burning temp when the light is cooling itself via natural convection (no forced air). There is ~60F delta between these temps (skin burning vs plastic deflection). I realize that stuffing the lights in a bezel/bucket is significantly reducing the free flow of air around the lights, but it is not a sealed enclosure either. I think further testing is needed, and as @parb suggested, an IR camera will easily reveal hot spots. I have access to one and plan to try that. I feel that a 1hr indoor test at elevated ambient (100F / 38C) will be good enough to satisfy me.

I've attached some relevant pics. I will post an update on further development plans for alternative Aux mount brackets within a day or so.
 

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YellowLab

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Like many others I was disappointed in the stock aux. lights in the grill of my Grenadier. I'm sure there were various regulations that limited what could legally be mounted there from the factory, but the light output is just pointless. I don't think I would ever use them, especially with the hassle of putting the car in offroad mode first (I'm in North America).

I decided to find a way to mount a modern high-power pair of LEDs in the stock location, without the need to do any cutting of the grill. I've seen a few kits out there but they all have hefty price tags and require cutting. I don't want to hack up the front end of my car if I don't have to.

Turns out the aux. lights installed at the factory are a PAR46 style lamp, which is a standard 5.75in diameter light housing size. The Grenadier lights are a 7.4Watt lamp, which is literally 10% the power of many modern LED pod lights. No wonder they are useless. There are a million aftermarket headlights available in this PAR46 size, and plenty of them are LED. However the Grenadier aux lights feature a unique triple mount boss in the rear that snaps into some grommets in the grill buckets (plastic dish behind the lamps). There does not seem to be any other light available that will mount in this same way.

I considered fashioning a bracket that would secure a modern PAR46 lamp in there, but ultimately decided that I didn't really want a redundant set of headlights on the car. I wanted something more powerful like a off-road pod light. The problem is that 5in (127mm) is a slightly unusual size for round pod lights.

After way too much time searching I found a good candidate in a 5in round pod light rated 80W per lamp with a combo (spot + flood) lens. These rugged lights include wiring, nice sealed connectors, and relay as part of the package, all for an unbelievable $80 on Amazon. Note that this pair of lights draws >13 amps, so the standard ceiling-mounted 10 amp upfitter switches will not work directly, requiring a relay in the circuit to switch the high current.

After some measuring and CAD work, I created the sheetmetal bracket design shown in the pics attached here. This bracket secures the light pods at their designed attachment/aiming points, and bolts directly into the holes that mounted the original aux lights in the Grenadier grill bucket. No cutting required. Best of all the original bezel fits around these lights and attaches right back into place. The final result looks like it could have come from the factory, in my opinion.

View attachment 7848899

In use these lights are bright AF. They provide the overwhelming light intensity I was looking for and switching them on from the ceiling-mounted 25 amp switch makes me feel like a helicopter pilot every time. They don't seem to generate a worrisome amount of heat.

The lights I used: Exzeit "LML-5064B"

I want to make a few more tweaks to the bracket design, then I will probably have a batch made. I plan to send a few sets out for people to try.

These lights are an amazing value, but honestly I was hoping to find a good light pod from a well-known quality brand like KC HiLites or Baja Designs or Diode Dynamics. Maybe someone can do some research and find one that fits the criteria:
- 5 inch (127mm) outside diameter or a little less
- 3 in (76mm) total depth or less would be nice
- mount bosses near rear of light (not protruding from bottom)
- 120 Watts or more power rating is ideal

I hope to find another light model (or two) to design brackets for. If people don't mind losing the round bezel around the lights then there are lots of options that will work. There are some downsides to that, though.

If there is sufficient interest we might talk Stu into running a batch of these mounts and offering kits to forum members through the forum store.
That is beyond impressive! You get the merit badge for figuring this one out!
 
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