Autocar article on INEOS Auto future

[klarie]

Understand, but every car ist tested in hot and cold climates and in all aspects. Nevertheless they still have problems, here and there. Testing doesn't mean solved. It can lead to a complete solution, a partial soution (to set the limits closer) or to even to none solution (if it is acceptable for most situations). And if you keep in mind, that the Grenadier is pushed out with a lot of force which even led to cars getting repaired at the dealer, I doubt that each and every problem was addressed. And a gearbox is nothing, where problems always get fixed quick and easy. The cooler will help, that's for sure. But I'm not after these fine videos with Grenadiers driving in a chain over tracks at a good speed through Morocoo, I'm referring to slow drives through sand dune fields for an extended period of times. We saw 4x4s with diesel particle filters where the engine went into the emergency mode, because a filter cleaning wasn't possible while a lot of exhaust gas was produced at the same time (engines needs to run for a certain amount of time at a certain speed to start the filter cleanin program. In some countries you can do that while the car is stationary, but not everywhere). Different thing, I know, but these cars have also been tested in hot climate but that issue was either accepted or not known. The three guys from Grand Tour tested the new Discovery with Limited Slip Clutches in the rear axle. If you drive often enough in small circles you get the clutches that they heat up and close 100% (to have no friction and cool down). While that is fine for loose ground, the next step ist to open them 100% if they do not cool down enough. That is not what you want in bad terrain. Also another example of something which was tested, build but still has drawbacks. BTW, in the German part of this forum a guy reports that his transfer box was tested at a French dealer by Ineos technicians and found OK. So it seems that at least a few problem boxes might pop up...tested or not.

The funny thing is....if we talk about LED light fo example, fear is expressed over and over again that one light could fail in the deep of Africa, at night, in hazardous environment and that is an absolute no-go to use these LED-lights! But when you talk about another scenario which might even be worse than that (a broken gearbox or a stuck car) it is claimed that these are only extreme situations, which one will never will be exposed to....

AWo

Hm, there are always certain situations where things can go wrong. .. And as you mention the topic of Diesel Filters.. these pieces are like computers.. introduce problems we never had without it. - That is why older and simpler built vehicles survive in Africa and stay reliable. Because of simplicity. The LED topic is another. of course is a failing LED shit in the middle of nowhere. However if a LED fails at all. In the meantime there exist LED in form of a classic lightbulb. And once again - the very same problem regulatory.
Back to tremec transfer case. - Yes indeed there might be the topic of overheating in a few rare operational conditions. Okay I understand your position I am myself in most cases the Devil's Advocate.. and Murphys Law.. but also - the more optimistic part.. this was developed by Magna.. they should know what they re doing. What brings me to a question.. How is this problem resolved in a Mercedes G transfer case ? - This is not the first project of its kind.

 

[AWo]

In the meantime there exist LED in form of a classic lightbulb.

Yes and they are even mor prone to fail as they use active cooling done by a fan...

No, Magna Steyr (in Graz), who builds the G-Class, has not developed the Grenadier. Their part was to transfer the prototype to series production (develop the processes that the prototype can be build in mass production, that is more to see how this car can be build on an industrial level). In the very beginning they also contributed some testing of competetive cars and a study regarding the Defender. However, development chief Alex Quindt came from Magna Steyr and rhe G-Class, but his job is not developing gearboxes

The develompent was done by AKKA, the former Mercedes Benz Technologies which developed cars like the E-Class. The rest is taken out of shelves of different vendors and melted together.

Magna Drivetrain (in Steyr) was a development partner, but did they create the transfer box or is it from the Tremec shelf? I'm not aware that Magna Drivetrain develops gearboxes...In the beginning a German Company (not ZF, not Getrac nor GKN) should provide the transfer box, but it has become Tremec. However, Magna Drivetrain is not related to the G Class.

Cheers
AWo

 

[klarie]

Yes and they are even mor prone to fail as they use active cooling done by a fan...

No, Magna Steyr (in Graz), who builds the G-Class, has not developed the Grenadier. Their part was to transfer the prototype to series production (develop the processes that the prototype can be build in mass production, thst is more to see how this car can be build on an industrial level). In the very beginning they also contributed some testing of competetive cars and a study regarding the Defender. However, development chief Alex Quindt came from Magna Steyr and rhe G-Class, but his job is not developing gearboxes

The develompent was done by AKKA, the former Mercedes Benz Technologies which developed cars like the E-Class. The rest is taken out of shelves of different vendors and melted together.

Magna Drivetrain (in Steyr) was a development partner, but did they create the transfer box or is it from the Tremec shelf? I'm not aware that Magna Drivetrain develops gearboxes...In the beginning a German Company (not ZF, not Getrac nor GJN) should provide the transfer box, but it has become Tremec. However, Magna Drivetrain is not related to the G Class.

Cheers
AWo

thank you for explaining.. although I grew up in a car shop .. this is by far not my profession. At the end.. the final prove of the Grenadier is when operated by customers.. We will see.

 

[AWo]

How is this problem resolved in a Mercedes G transfer case ? - This is not the first project of its kind.

I don't know, ask Magna Steyr. Maybe because the transfer case is separated from the gearbox, as you can see here at this G Pur.

Maybe more oil, maybe more cooling fins, maybe less torque....

But the G is a good example that also this car has poor engineering points which lead to bad failures..look at the 3.5 diesel engine. It has a poor air filter design in two important aspects. And there are more things...(just if you ask why the body is removed).

1. Water which comes in and crosses the filter will enter the engine as the air inlet is in the top lid and the pipe to the turbo is in the lower part. The water fells down and is sucked in. That led to engine damages already. It must be the other way around. Even if the engine is not from Magna, why haven't they changed it?

2. This car on the photo suffered from this second issue....the sealing of the air filter case is to weak for the negative pressure. It bends to the inside and lets unfulitered air bypass the filter. Not a major or fast killing problem on clean streets. But that killed the turbo after some journeys over dusty tracks.
See the yellow dust in the turbo inlet pipe.

A famous name is not a 100% guarantee for good engineering.

Cheers
AWo

 

[Boston Boy]

An update I think would help is the option of a rear camera rear view mirror (a camera on rear of the car, behind the ladder and the spare —perhaps mounted in the spare tire box/cover) which when turned on will display in the regular optical rear view mirror (half silvered mirror). My daughter's new rug rat toting vehicle has that. In some situations very helpful, though like all backup cameras the lenses can get dirty and your eyes have to get used to quickly focusing on a close distance when you look up to the mirror (with a regular reflective mirror, the optical distance to the cars behind is the same as the actual distance; when you look at a LCD display you are focusing much closer on a screen image that is only ~50 cm away.

 

[klarie]

@AWo Indeed - a famous name doesn't make a famous design and sometimes poor designs have their fans.
If we see this right - the old defender made Land Rover famous and got its fans until today and perhaps beyond - despite design flaws and there were plenty.
I am most certain the Grenadier has a bunch of design flaws.. the (in-)famous hump on RHD vehicles at least one to mention.
Just mixing best of breed off the shelf components doesn't make a good off road vehicle immediately.
Of course a master chef will select only the best ingredients.. however the proper composition, temperature, preparation.. makes a good dish at the end. But saying nay from beginning.. will not make such a project reality.

 

[Krabby]

An update I think would help is the option of a rear camera rear view mirror (a camera on rear of the car, behind the ladder and the spare —perhaps mounted in the spare tire box/cover) which when turned on will display in the regular optical rear view mirror (half silvered mirror). My daughter's new rug rat toting vehicle has that. In some situations very helpful, though like all backup cameras the lenses can get dirty and your eyes have to get used to quickly focusing on a close distance when you look up to the mirror (with a regular reflective mirror, the optical distance to the cars behind is the same as the actual distance; when you look at a LCD display you are focusing much closer on a screen image that is only ~50 cm away.

Could be handy when the back is packed to the gills.

 

[Stu_Barnes]

This article moved to the IA Electric / alt fuel forum, just to kick things off.

 

[Barney]

Exactly - yet another G.. .. V8 perhaps. To be frank I don't care. I am always more utilitarian even if the version I ordered is a field master. This means offroad with some comfort. But nothing to be afraid to go into mud & dirt. So purpose first and comfort 2nd but luxury is priority F.. (uck off)
However - as Sir Jim needs to make some money and obviously there is more demand than fulfilment in this segment so why not providing it.
The Mercedes G makes a lot of money.. with huge wait time.
Other brands - including Range Rovers, - Bentley and co.. seem not to close the gap. Perhaps they are meant primary a luxury vehicle whilst a Mercedes G even in the most luxury version - can easy be converted in to a capable offroader perhaps by just changing wheels.
Not with a Bentley..

I saw most of the Mercedes G AMG in Berlin, posing. Unbelievable. I think very few have seen a gravel or muddy dirt road.

 

[Jean Mercier]

Could be handy when the back is packed to the gills.

Yes, same thought here, I have already been looking at some "cheap Chinese stuff" for the few times I will pack my car to the roof when helping my kids or other people to move stuff from one place to another.

 

[klarie]

I saw most of the Mercedes G AMG in Berlin, posing. Unbelievable. I think very few have seen a gravel or muddy dirt road.

indeed. Same in Frankfurt.. and without being preoccupied opinion.. the persons owning or operating are quite of same clientele.
However .. I ve got a few friends in hunting who use MB G civilian 300D , 240D or even gas driven and a bit more luxury but by far all of them at least 15years old .. for hunting and towing .

 

[arakeghedzig]

Wouldn't mind seeing a heads-up display or a front screen as these are pretty standard options in the luxury suv segment.

 

[Krabby]

“in the luxury suv segment.”

Is that the “wince” emoji?

 

[Pat]

I don't know, ask Magna Steyr. Maybe because the transfer case is separated from the gearbox, as you can see here at this G Pur.

View attachment 7808867
View attachment 7808868

Maybe more oil, maybe more cooling fins, maybe less torque....

But the G is a good example that also this car has poor engineering points which lead to bad failures..look at the 3.5 diesel engine. It has a poor air filter design in two important aspects. And there are more things...(just if you ask why the body is removed).

1. Water which comes in and crosses the filter will enter the engine as the air inlet is in the top lid and the pipe to the turbo is in the lower part. The water fells down and is sucked in. That led to engine damages already. It must be the other way around. Even if the engine is not from Magna, why haven't they changed it?

2. This car on the photo suffered from this second issue....the sealing of the air filter case is to weak for the negative pressure. It bends to the inside and lets unfulitered air bypass the filter. Not a major or fast killing problem on clean streets. But that killed the turbo after some journeys over dusty tracks.
See the yellow dust in the turbo inlet pipe.

View attachment 7808869

A famous name is not a 100% guarantee for good engineering.

Cheers
AWo

AWo, I really appreciate your deep industries knowledge paired to a real-life hands-on experience. Stellar!!!