Hydrogen Fuel Cell Grenadier testing about to start

What I don't get is the insistence on the status quo electric vehicle system it appears is in use here by Ineos. Are multiple motors controlled by black boxes really the solution to long range vehicle use in harsh terrain or even day to day driving? Is the Tesla-Rivian-Mercedes-Etc approach now the settled standard? With all the excess available torque of BEV or Hydrogen FCEV vehicles why not retain a more traditional power distribution system (diffs, axles, driveshafts) that last for hundreds of thousands of miles and use a single motor? Isn't retrofitting existing vehicles the smarter, cheaper, and more environmentally friendly approach? Have I needed Gecko mode for last 50 years of driving and been too stupid to know it? :head bang:

255/85 said:

What I don't get is the insistence on the status quo electric vehicle system it appears is in use here by Ineos. Are multiple motors controlled by black boxes really the solution to long range vehicle use in harsh terrain or even day to day driving? Is the Tesla-Rivian-Mercedes-Etc approach now the settled standard? With all the excess available torque of BEV or Hydrogen FCEV vehicles why not retain a more traditional power distribution system (diffs, axles, driveshafts) that last for hundreds of thousands of miles and use a single motor? Isn't retrofitting existing vehicles the smarter, cheaper, and more environmentally friendly approach? Have I needed Gecko mode for last 50 years of driving and been too stupid to know it? :head bang:

Click to expand...

This is a tech-topic and both and advantage and a problem of an electric - (e) Motor.
The advantage of an e-motor -is full torque from beginning - not at a certain revolutions compared to a conventional (c) engine.
This gearbox / axle and reduction system is to increase the torque on low revolutions of a c engine to allow to get the vehicle in motion. - This problem is not existent in an electric vehicle - so you do not need a gearbox - just a distribution system to bring power to each wheel.
However -the enormous torque of an e Motor means all rotating parts need to cope with this and add weight consume space. As e-motors are relatively small, - less than melon size or smaller. A electric motor as aircraft engine 250kW, 50kg in total weight. and the size is box of Danish cookies. A B57 diesel engine I estimate around 250kgs.
To reduce weight - your would then have 2 or even 4 motors and distribute these , - to reduce the rotating "dead weight and loss. the weight will then be required and the space of not used gearbox to add batteries, eventually Fuel Cell, Hydrogen tank, and a lot of servo motors that drive the aircondition, /heatpump hydraulic pump for brakes, and quite a bunch of other functions requiring space and weight. where will you put these if the gearbox and transmission and the stuff remains on board. It doesnt make sense at all.

Indeed a FC- or BEV type Grenadier is of now a rather alibi vehicle to meet regulatory and political issues. I am not against EV.. the technology to have a silent almost stealth hunters vehicle is an attractive idea.
However.. a Battery has not the energy density of gallon of diesel. A nano fusion generator or nano thorium generator that fits in a pilots case is not yet invented. Again that is science fiction now. - Perhaps someone has it invented already but kept secret because if such a thingie could be mass produced, it would be very disruptive.
If someone came out with this today - and would put it on wikipedia / open source.. This would kill almost all oil companies share value, enourmous layoff, and more devastating effects. Vehicles would run with a charge the entire vehicles life. Petrol / Gas stations -- .not anymore. Back to fact. - A BEV or FC EV Grenadier is a rather political topic and may have some market share in a rather urban area with appropriate infrastructure. - Outside of that area - as far as forseeable no.

A retrofit EV from a conventional engine - rather no. - Even if the engine would use the same torque level as a conventional engine. .. where will you put the powerplant and auxilliary systems - there is no sufficent space to store all this. Replacing fuel tank and Exhaust cleaning tank (Ad Blue Stuff) provides not enough battery space and add high weight and out of balance / weight distribution.

Sometimes US cops can be a little over the top.
But I would give these guys a beer anytime.
View: https://youtube.com/shorts/E9KhLZM1cG4?si=7IO_Rw8e6LcCQr4L

DaveB said:

Sometimes US cops can be a little over the top.
But I would give these guys a beer anytime.

View: https://youtube.com/shorts/E9KhLZM1cG4?si=7IO_Rw8e6LcCQr4L

Click to expand...

Indeed - its not tribal - its the rangers who did this - this is a bit longer and more complete.. on yt. The discussion on the topic is lots more in favour of police action. - and next to none to climatidiots.

In Germany our Economic minister from green party was asked - what will be the effect of the measures and laws enforced - He does not know - in particular replacement of conventional heaters (Gas, Oil) by heat pump.
I have no problem if these people protest.- But taking hostage of many people in the middle of the desert, or going to work and pay taxes, destroying their property is both entirely inacceptable and intolerable.
What none of this persons of low intellect realize. - If in Europe or Australia (or both) will stop emitting any CO2 means not even breathing. The reduction of absolute value of CO2 in air will next to zero. so we still have 430ppm - and that will continue.
If there would be a real problem the WEF leaders would not use private jets. Climate Clowns would not fly to Bali like the ones in Germany.
Just sticking to facts.
Had recently a discussion with my spouses brother in law.. He has a degree in civil engineering and is head of a building authority in a town in Northrhine Westphalia state... I showed him scientific data ( e.g. Helmholtz Institute and University of Munich) on proportional components of air depending on altitude. CO2 in 2200m next to zero. plants in 2200m next to zero. Oh he asked me.. what about Ozone Layers and Greenhouse effects then with CO2.then? exactly.. but - there is one thing, - CO2 is not the cause of warming - it is an effect. The warmer it gets the more CO2 bound is released previously bured in the ground. So perhaps this will result in more / bigger trees like at the age were we had forests of Equisetum ..

klarie said:

Indeed - its not tribal - its the rangers who did this - this is a bit longer and more complete.. on yt. The discussion on the topic is lots more in favour of police action. - and next to none to climatidiots.

In Germany our Economic minister from green party was asked - what will be the effect of the measures and laws enforced - He does not know - in particular replacement of conventional heaters (Gas, Oil) by heat pump.
I have no problem if these people protest.- But taking hostage of many people in the middle of the desert, or going to work and pay taxes, destroying their property is both entirely inacceptable and intolerable.
What none of this persons of low intellect realize. - If in Europe or Australia (or both) will stop emitting any CO2 means not even breathing. The reduction of absolute value of CO2 in air will next to zero. so we still have 430ppm - and that will continue.
If there would be a real problem the WEF leaders would not use private jets. Climate Clowns would not fly to Bali like the ones in Germany.
Just sticking to facts.
Had recently a discussion with my spouses brother in law.. He has a degree in civil engineering and is head of a building authority in a town in Northrhine Westphalia state... I showed him scientific data ( e.g. Helmholtz Institute and University of Munich) on proportional components of air depending on altitude. CO2 in 2200m next to zero. plants in 2200m next to zero. Oh he asked me.. what about Ozone Layers and Greenhouse effects then with CO2.then? exactly.. but - there is one thing, - CO2 is not the cause of warming - it is an effect. The warmer it gets the more CO2 bound is released previously bured in the ground. So perhaps this will result in more / bigger trees like at the age were we had forests of Equisetum ..

Click to expand...

Just a study about this topic. Not to start an argument but to show that we are not talking about simple related points .

So has anyone on the forum actually seen the Grenadier Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle (FCEV) Concept?

Apparently it's been driving about central London recently.

DCPU said:

So has anyone on the forum actually seen the Grenadier Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle (FCEV) Concept?

Apparently it's been driving about central London recently.

Click to expand...

They said it was going to be a physically smaller vehicle.
I assume the test vehicles will be standard size though.
If it is about 75-80% of the standard size it would be good for city driving.

bemax said:

Across the world, trees are growing faster, dying younger – and will soon store less carbon

We analysed 210,000 tree ring records from 80 different species, and found the trade off between growth and lifespan may neutralise the forest carbon sink.

theconversation.com

Just a study about this topic. Not to start an argument but to show that we are not talking about simple related points .

Click to expand...

May be.. there are a few more aspects.. Lots of trees are cut down and here in the Vogelsberg area there is on thing you see big posters stating „No additional confined ground water to Rhine Main Area“
So there is a lot more.. and again not topic of this thread. If there is interest in discussion of scientific aspects of environmental situation and perhaps promising new technology of vehicle engines and propellant this should be in a separate thread.

DaveB said:

They said it was going to be a physically smaller vehicle.
I assume the test vehicles will be standard size though.
If it is about 75-80% of the standard size it would be good for city driving.

Click to expand...

Dave, the bev, the battery electric ineos vehicle will be a smaller vehicle.
pretty sure the fuel cell one is just a grenadier. The bev will come much earlier, were they saying 2025? Fuel cell end of decade earliest, needing infrastructure.

Toyota unveils hydrogen-fuelled Hilux built in UK:

but look at the space allocated to fuel tanks for a targeted range of just 373 miles.

DCPU said:

Toyota unveils hydrogen-fuelled Hilux built in UK:
View attachment 7826015
but look at the space allocated to fuel tanks for a targeted range of just 373 miles.

Click to expand...

That is 600km at least a bit more than many BEV. But this means under optimum conditions and not in hefty offroad use.
6 days ago in Neuss / Dusseldorf a BEV Renault Zoe exploded inside a Garage and caused a lot of damage.
Considering sitting o 3 bottles of Hydrogen - reminds me a bit on Spaceshuttle Challenger.
Okay there is higher energy throughput in FC using pure H2 - but DMFC is already there and Methanol is easier to carry and does not need a pressure container.

With all the tubings this looks like an ICE concept?

emax said:

With all the tubings this looks like an ICE concept?

Click to expand...

Indeed - its a bit of "combustion" H2 oxidation and the German name of a fuel cell it is indeed combustion - processing of H2 and O to water. The rack on top is an FC array and the rest are subsystems buffer battery, electrohydraulic pumps etc.
the engine motors are either in wheels or on each axle.. There are quite some permanent magnets.-dont know how much micro Tesla these are emitting. - 100 microTesla is in Germany the exposition limit according to authority.

Oh please, gas engined cars explode as well.

Norb-TX said:

Oh please, gas engined cars explode as well.

Click to expand...

Of course gasoline / petrol propelled vehicles may burn too. But the risk of explosion is lower unless most of the body is plastic that emit explosive gases when heated. - Glad Grenadier has a steel body.

Statistically, EVs catch fire at a lower rate than gasoline cars. But you of course you bring it up to make it seem like it's exclusive to EVs. So much for balanced views.

Norb-TX said:

EVs catch fire at a lower rate than gasoline cars

Click to expand...

Hearsay or any credible source?

emax said:

Hearsay or any credible source

Click to expand...

@emax by statistics - did some research yesterday Hybrid Vehicles are the ones that burn most, then ICE and indeed by statistics - BEV are last. - So from that @Norb-TX is correct. -
Main reasons for fire are issues in electrics / wiring on any make.
The problem of E -Vehicles is these are most of plastic.. The BEV use more plastic to compensate for battery weight hence burn faster / hotter and indeed due to gases emitted from components the risk of explosion higher.
The fire brigades have different problems if confronted with a burning E-Car.
Not the point. Back to FCEV - indeed I like the concept. but once again. This former Audi engineer built a DMFC car.. easy & fast to refuel, silent, less effort in fuel storage, existing fuel station infrastructure can be used. To me if EV - then DMFC. What bugs be . why is automotive industry not promoting this?
Not fitting in a green / WEF agenda? Not with 15 minute cities or wind generators,.. people use too much private cars.. ? Or is it indeed a technical reason?

klarie said:

@emax by statistics - did some research yesterday Hybrid Vehicles are the ones that burn most, then ICE and indeed by statistics - BEV are last. - So from that @Norb-TX is correct. -
Main reasons for fire are issues in electrics / wiring on any make.
The problem of E -Vehicles is these are most of plastic.. The BEV use more plastic to compensate for battery weight hence burn faster / hotter and indeed due to gases emitted from components the risk of explosion higher.
The fire brigades have different problems if confronted with a burning E-Car.
Not the point. Back to FCEV - indeed I like the concept. but once again. This former Audi engineer built a DMFC car.. easy & fast to refuel, silent, less effort in fuel storage, existing fuel station infrastructure can be used. To me if EV - then DMFC. What bugs be . why is automotive industry not promoting this?
Not fitting in a green / WEF agenda? Not with 15 minute cities or wind generators,.. people use too much private cars.. ? Or is it indeed a technical reason?

Click to expand...

I don’t think the issue is how often they catch on fire. It is that a lithium fire cannot be put out using conventional means. How many ICE vehicles have caused fires that sunk roro ships? There are multiple cases of EV’s being the primary culprit.

cheswick said:

I don’t think the issue is how often they catch on fire. It is that a lithium fire cannot be put out using conventional means. How many ICE vehicles have caused fires that sunk roro ships? There are multiple cases of EV’s being the primary culprit.

Click to expand...

Exactly - that is why I wrote fire brigades have different problems .. - as they need water containers e.g here in Germany where entire vehicle is put in. Also a conventional vehicles usually do not burn out of sudden. So in most cases its a result of a defect in electrics, or wear of parts. If correctly serviced and maintained - even a NSU Prinz with inside fuel line did not burn.
The problem of BEV is they re new.. why are new unused vehicles or very young vehicles burn out or start fire out of "nothing". If the cars "had a life" and some wear.. may be.