Hydrogen Fuel Cell Grenadier testing about to start

[klarie]

350km - oh yeah.. what an enormous distance.. and what little effort needed.

 

[emax]

The source I used was using the NABU study but converted sulphur to CO2 either by intention or simply by stupidity.

Never trust a green source.

 

[DCPU]

350km - oh yeah.. what an enormous distance.. and what little effort needed.

The size of a tank for 2kg of hydrogen takes some internal calibration to appreciate.

 

[bemax]

@bemax you re right. Mea culpa. The sources were originally quoted from NABU - a German NGO in Environmental Protection. - The source I used was using the NABU study but converted sulphur to CO2 either by intention or simply by stupidity. My fault was not to check the true source of origin.

However - The regulation since 2020 permits only marine fuel with less than 0.5% sulphur- previously 3.5% (Ground transport 0.001%) but that is not CO2 - so I am wrong and you are right.

- but still - the Containerships emit still quite a lot (powernwz CH - German language) 2.6 % of total, like airtraffic, and all ground transport 18%
Data around 2020.

The big problem of the heavy ships indeed is not the CO2 but the pollution by burning heavy oil without the filters. And if they dump the filtered stuff in the sea there is a dead spot right there for a while.

 

[bemax]

Never trust a green source.

never trust any source without checking if its important..

 

[Max]

In California, scientists have just now created fusion using Hydrogen to produce a superpower, unlike other nuclear reactors it does not produce harmful waste...I am sure our Sir Jim will be happy.

 

[Jean Mercier]

In California, scientists have just now created fusion using Hydrogen to produce a superpower, unlike other nuclear reactors it does not produce harmful waste...I am sure our Sir Jim will be happy.

That's right
But I don't want to have a factory on top of my Grenadier: probably I will have to reinforce my suspension

By the way, congratulations, it's the first time they get more energy out of it than they have to feed it! (of course discounting the investment of the equipment / factory)!

 

[Davman]

Not too excited just yet.

Tony Roulstone, a nuclear energy expert at the University of Cambridge, estimated that the energy output of the experiment was only 0.5 per cent of the energy that was needed to fire the lasers in the first place.

My Flux Capacitor Grenadier will have to wait for a bit longer I feel.

Hydrogen one might be a bit closer though.

 

[emax]

it's the first time they get more energy out of it than they have to feed it!

Oh yes. I've been following such news for 40 years, and every now and then there's a breakthrough - either in California or at ITER in southern France.

It would be a dream come true. But it will probably take another generation or some more for them to get it right. And then it will probably take a month of maintenance for an hour of operation.

Igniting the sun under human control is definitely not a walk in the park.

 

[bemax]

Not too excited just yet.

Tony Roulstone, a nuclear energy expert at the University of Cambridge, estimated that the energy output of the experiment was only 0.5 per cent of the energy that was needed to fire the lasers in the first place.

My Flux Capacitor Grenadier will have to wait for a bit longer I feel.

Hydrogen one might be a bit closer though.

Actually according to my information it has been the first time that this experiment had an energy output 30 % higher than the input. The problem is that the laser’s energy is not fully brought in the hydrogen core.
Nevertheless it’s a remarkable stepstone.

 

[DCPU]

Actually according to my information it has been the first time that this experiment had an energy output 30 % higher than the input. The problem is that the laser’s energy is not fully brought in the hydrogen core.
Nevertheless it’s a remarkable stepstone.

LOL, we have such a range of figures.

It's 53.66% according to the BBC:

"On announcing the breakthrough Dr Marvin Adams, deputy administrator for defense programs at the US National Nuclear Security Administration, said that the laboratory's lasers had input 2.05 megajoules (MJ) of energy to the target, which had then produced 3.15 MJ of fusion energy output."

Breakthrough in nuclear fusion energy announced

US researchers have overcome a major barrier to achieving low-carbon nuclear fusion.

www.bbc.co.uk

But maybe they are all correct and talking about slightly different things.

 

[bemax]

LOL, we have such a range of figures.

It's 53.66% according to the BBC:

"On announcing the breakthrough Dr Marvin Adams, deputy administrator for defense programs at the US National Nuclear Security Administration, said that the laboratory's lasers had input 2.05 megajoules (MJ) of energy to the target, which had then produced 3.15 MJ of fusion energy output."

Breakthrough in nuclear fusion energy announced

US researchers have overcome a major barrier to achieving low-carbon nuclear fusion.

www.bbc.co.uk

But maybe they are all correct and talking about slightly different things.

One is measuring from upside down and one from downside up. As I remember right the numbers have been quite the same in the article I read.

 

[Stu_Barnes]

Ineos Grenadier hydrogen FCEV to star at Goodwood | Autocar

CEO Lynn Calder confirms Ineos is exploring alternative powertrains; FCEV prototype coming this summer

www.autocar.co.uk

Further to the initial testing.

 

[Logsplitter]

just seen this also

Ford to test small UK fleet of hydrogen fuel cell E-Transit vans — Reuters UK

Ford Motor Co said on Tuesday it will test a small fleet of prototype hydrogen fuel-cell versions of its electric E-Transit model to see if they are a workable zero-emission option for customers hauling heavy goods long distances.

apple.news

 

[cheswick]

I wonder if Ineos' programme will be piggybacking off Iveco, given they seen a little ahead with utilising the Hyundai fuel cell, Carraro axles, body on frame, ladder chassis, etc.

The details are interesting:

"The working eDAILY FCEV prototype is equipped with Hyundai’s 90 kW hydrogen fuel cell system and 140 kW e-motor. Six tanks offer a combined storage capacity of 12 kg of hydrogen.

The GVW 7.2 ton prototype has been tested in Europe, confirming a driving range of 350 km, maximum payload of 3 tons and a refueling time within 15 minutes.

While eDAILY BEV, also launched today at the IAA, is best suited for short journeys, eDAILY FCEV will be an ideal option for longer deliveries where high payload and long range is necessary. "

View attachment 7796239
View attachment 7796238

Hyundai and IVECO present the first fuel cell large van at IAA in Hannover as their partnership develops

Hyundai Motor Company and Iveco Group today at IAA Transportation 2022 in Hannover unveiled the first IVECO eDAILY Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle

www.hyundai.com

Crazy if that's the amount of space required to carry 12kg of hydrogen that'll get you 350km of range. I'm sure it'll have its place but can't imagine this being practical relative to a battery unless the rapid refuelling is the driving concern...

 

[DCPU]

Ineos hydrogen demonstrator to launch at Goodwood Festival of Speed:

 

[Norb-TX]

No one mentions child labour, immense use of potable water for Lithium, etc and recycling? (Reminds me on windgenerator rotor blades - no one knows on proper recycling instead they do landfill.

And oil production and refining and transport is so so much better?

 

[cheswick]

And oil production and refining and transport is so so much better?

I think the point is that the negative impacts of fossil fuels are well understood and socialised whereas the negative impacts of many “green” technologies and their product lifecycles are greenwashed and obfuscated.

 

[klarie]

Ah The issues of oil are known. The problem of battery production and anything of "renewable" (in fact I never heard / read of renewable energy my life but only on energy transformation) is sold to us as a clean process and a green and environmentally friendly. - What I wanted to highlight is that the so called clean energy is not so clean. - Indeed oil and natural gas is not green.. what do we know - both is created by natural processes and continuous. The way we process it is something that could be better. If you start to discuss this -it gets political - and compare production cost, CO2 creation and a few more topics .. so an end2end calculation and this is something that people in favour of EV usually do not consider. (and we shall stop subsidising of any kind. True cost only)

 

[Boston Boy]

I don't understand why there is so little discussion of hybrid vehicles: a much smaller battery that is recharged by using the brakes as a generator. In my experience around town start/stop-commuting fuel consumption is much worse than steady highway travel. Take the Ford Maverick pickup truck. Owners are reporting ~ 40+ mpg performance around town and ~30 on highway. And there is no range anxiety since you still have the ICE. I read a report on total lifecycle carbon cost of a full electric vs. hybrid, vehicle, battery manufacture and actual road use, and hybrid vehicles were not that much higher total carbon cost, because a full battery manufacturing is so carbon expensive.
But this is a complex question, since the carbon cost statistics depend on how your electricity is generated for both the manufacturing plant and the on-road use.
Purists say we should only talk about full electric vehicles and may base their calculations on using only green/renewable energy sources. But, the reality is we do not have a robust charging infrastructure and will not for many many years. What to do? And there is never going to be a recharging system all across the Australian outback. For industrial (mining, city delivery etc) an Ineos green hydrogen, fuel cell electric may make sense since those uses do not require hundreds of miles between refueling.
SO..... I come down on the side of a hybrid/regenerative braking technology as the best use for a heavy vehicle like the Grenadier.
Your thoughts?