Hydrogen Fuel Cell Grenadier testing about to start

Max · Jun 22, 2023

cheswick said:
That's why I find it very surprising there isn't a an ancillary petrol or diesel generator option for the new generation of electric trucks. I would happily buy electric if I could put a generator on the tray and charge up the battery as I drive on the very rare but necessary occasion where I needed it.

Would a wind generator option make it perpetual motion?...

James · Jun 22, 2023

cheswick said:
That's why I find it very surprising there isn't a an ancillary petrol or diesel generator option for the new generation of electric trucks. I would happily buy electric if I could put a generator on the tray and charge up the battery as I drive on the very rare but necessary occasion where I needed it.

If its a truck with a tray then couldn’t you do that yourself? Buy a generator and strap it on? Bit unorthodox, but at least you could use the genset elsewhere too.
at best it would prob extend rather than make endless the battery, as it would take a full car engine to provide enough to continue if the battery were fully flat, but thats the reason there are few hybrid options.
these are transition technologies; we have to buy them to provide the profit for them to be improved and perfected, as the petrol engine has been over a century. Perfection comes later!

cheswick · Jun 22, 2023

James said:
If its a truck with a tray then couldn’t you do that yourself? Buy a generator and strap it on? Bit unorthodox, but at least you could use the genset elsewhere too.
at best it would prob extend rather than make endless the battery, as it would take a full car engine to provide enough to continue if the battery were fully flat, but thats the reason there are few hybrid options.
these are transition technologies; we have to buy them to provide the profit for them to be improved and perfected, as the petrol engine has been over a century. Perfection comes later!

No EV's I am aware of will allow charging whilst moving - its a deliberate restriction to stop people driving off whilst plugged in and tearing the charger off the wall/ground.

Using what Tesla advertise for Cybertruck range, 500 miles or 804 kilometres. Travelling at 80kph that’s 10 hours of driving. A small diesel genset could provide an additional 10 kilometres of range for every hour of charging which means you would be able to supplement an additional 100 kilometres of range whilst driving. Now in practical terms you probably wouldn’t be driving non-stop for 11 hours, and eventually you would have to stop and sleep for let’s say 8 hours before resuming.

So realistically you are looking at >10% range extension before a hard stop in what would be one of the most extreme scenarios. An overnight stay would give you an additional 80km and whilst you're driving that 80km you'll get another 10km. So your original 804 kilometres now looks like comfortably >1,000km. That's enough extra to get from Bourke to Nyngan so nothing to be sneezed at.

For me that would be helpful and I would rather have the option to charge slowly and not be stranded than to not have the option at all and be stuck in the desert praying for a miracle.

Norb-TX · Jun 22, 2023

BTW this isn't a new idea, locomotives are diesel/electrics.

James · Jun 22, 2023

cheswick said:
No EV's I am aware of will allow charging whilst moving - its a deliberate restriction to stop people driving off whilst plugged in and tearing the charger off the wall/ground.

Using what Tesla advertise for Cybertruck range, 500 miles or 804 kilometres. Travelling at 80kph that’s 10 hours of driving. A small diesel genset could provide an additional 10 kilometres of range for every hour of charging which means you would be able to supplement an additional 100 kilometres of range whilst driving. Now in practical terms you probably wouldn’t be driving non-stop for 11 hours, and eventually you would have to stop and sleep for let’s say 8 hours before resuming.

So realistically you are looking at >10% range extension before a hard stop in what would be one of the most extreme scenarios. An overnight stay would give you an additional 80km and whilst you're driving that 80km you'll get another 10km. So your original 804 kilometres now looks like comfortably >1,000km. That's enough extra to get from Bourke to Nyngan so nothing to be sneezed at.

For me that would be helpful and I would rather have the option to charge slowly and not be stranded than to not have the option at all and be stuck in the desert praying for a miracle.

Yeah, something like those numbers. BMW actually offered an optional range extender engine in the i3. the cars can accept current while moving somewhere in the system, because regen braking works. If you want to make this work i guess someone would hack you another chargeport on the tray, and it would be an easy job if you were paying someone doing commercial retro-fitting ev to an older vehicle, which is still a cost effective thing to do. And v eco minded.
only making the point because it sounded like you wanted to buy one and this was the only, and occasional problem for you. I know id like my city car electric, and in australia will prob need the hydrogen, or biodiesel grenadier…

cheswick · Jun 22, 2023

James said:
Yeah, something like those numbers. BMW actually offered an optional range extender engine in the i3. the cars can accept current while moving somewhere in the system, because regen braking works. If you want to make this work i guess someone would hack you another chargeport on the tray, and it would be an easy job if you were paying someone doing commercial retro-fitting ev to an older vehicle, which is still a cost effective thing to do. And v eco minded.
only making the point because it sounded like you wanted to buy one and this was the only, and occasional problem for you. I know id like my city car electric, and in australia will prob need the hydrogen, or biodiesel grenadier…

Oh I am most definitely not interested in doing my own hack job - im past that stage of my life where I would modify my own cars, build my own computers, etc. The juice just isn't worth the squeeze. I agree a city like Sydney is perfect for an EV which is why they are spreading like locusts there, last time I was in there it was full of Tesla's, Polestars, BYD's, etc.

I agree a green diesel option would be the most pragmatic option for Australia outside of the urban centres. Personally I think HVO over biodiesel as there are commercially successful examples of this working at scale by Eni, Neste and others whereas Biodiesel seems to be stuck at the small scale research/greenwash phase and causes problems in any modern diesel when used beyond 10% ratio with normal diesel.

AWo · Jun 22, 2023

JOB said:
I would think I'm not alone in favouring Hydrogen Internal Combustion. Less weight, easier packaging in existing platforms and a more authentic driving experience.

There is a huge list of issues which need to be resolved with hydrogen internal combustion. And it is a huge NOX emitter, in the mixture range needed to develop enough power. The range is wide, but only a certain part of that gives you power. Much, much more NOX than petrol or diesel emitts.
You also do not get rid of CO2, as air is involved in the burning process. From an environmental perspective these engines will have a lot of problems to become legal. Even if rhey run in laboratories or in a few test cars.

The issues are
- 200% safe crankshaft ventilation necessary
- high dilution of oil with water
- different cylinder shape design due to different burning characteristics, thereby different cylinder head design
- not all injection technologies can be used with hydrogen

The next issues are
With hydrogen you do not reach as may km as with petrol or diesel per volume unit. BMW testet cooling it down to 255 degree Celsius to store it without pressure and gave up.

The other solution is, to set it under pressure. To reach about 500 to 600 km with a normal car you need to pressurize hydrogen to around 800, 900 bar with the volume available in a passenger car. Doing that requires a huge amount of energy, first to compress it ( today you need three compressors in a rpw to reach 1000 bar), second to cool it down again, as it gets hot while compressing.. BTW. the compress issue also applies to FCEVs. That makes internal combustion of hydrogen much more expensive and it is worse for the environment. I would guess: no chance.

There are still many things to find solutions for. Is not as easy as stated often.

AWo

Trialmaster · Jun 22, 2023

I know nothing of this technology except to say in 2023 it is unviable in the UK. I wanted to buy a. Toyota Murai but with only 12 filling station in the UK it was not a viable proposition. I know other European countries fair better. I also see that Toyota no longer list it for sale.

Having said that Lord Bamford (JCB) champions hydrogen for his heavy machinery as battery technology is totally unsuitable.

AWo · Jun 22, 2023

The problem arises, when you have to supply a huge amount of cars. I read a study from the German Fraunhofer Institut, which is not hobby-amateur-science but one of the most acknowledeged reasearch institutes, two years ago, about logistics problems.

However:
In Germany you're allowed to pressurize a tank truck up to 50 bar. The size of the load is usualy between 24000 an 30000 litres at 1 bar. Going up to 50 bar still transports a very small amount of driveable range to the fuel station in case of hydrogen compared to classic liquid fuels. Enough for a few cars or an airport bus, serving the airport (like in Cologne).

Going to specialized high pressure containers doesn't help, as these reduce the overall amount a truck can carry, so you end up the same.

But when more people demanding hydrogen fuel, that is far too less. You would need to increase hydrogen transports dramaticall, or generate hydrogen at the fuel station, which means multiplying the energy consumption of what I already wrote ( compressing, cooling).

The next issue Fraunhofer figured out was, that with the actual technology either 2-3 trucks or 5-6 cars could fill up their tank (or! Not and), before compression must begin again. Otherwise you have to have parrallel machinery which consumes space and costs, of course.

BTW, these studies are open for everybody to download and read at Fraunhofer.

AWo

klarie · Jun 22, 2023

Boston Boy said:
Remember the Category 5 hurricane Katrina that hit the US coast? The weather service told everyone to leave and head north. As I remember the distance to get out of danger was a 5 hour drive. This was pre-EV, but imaging the tussles at the recharging stations 3 hours north if we all had electric vehicles. We have not figured out the best solution yet, but as a semi-geezer and avid winter hunter, the huge reduction in the ice and snow in my lifetime, and that of my parents, and my Swedish friends make me a true believer that climate change is real, and our CO2 is the reason.

Hm, - you may believe it.. - I don't believe anything. No faith.
As long as certain countries go coal and even a lot of, the biggest climate promoters use aircraft and super yacht.. (told already) .. My companys goal ist to become CO2 neutral but comments on "will we now abandon our fleet of corporate jets" were deleted, blocked etc.. - like the native Americans say .. split tongue.
No. - climate is changing always. - There were warmer times during Roman empire and before.. Greenland Kalaallit Nunaat got its name from what? - Because it was indeed green and not an iceblock as now. So what?
At that time there were no jets, yachts, cruise ships, container freighters, motorvehicles and human population was a fraction of now.
CO2 is above 2500m 8200ft almost not existent.. (except close to active volcanoes and then its going downwards because its heavier than air molecules in that altitude) so no influence in the "weather kitchen" that is significantly above 2500m and also as you see plants are nearly non existent above this altitude. They need CO2 to produce sugars. Below 200ppm CO2 plant will die.
At the moment we ve got 436ppm -440ppm approximately and all climate models do have more than 30 parameters. So they are artifically modified.
No current mathematical model above 7 parameters are really consistent predictive. They become chaotic. I am used to these. The only thing I am pretty sure of is.. the relation between money drawn of our pockets and moved in the rich guys pocket is inverse proportional to the effect of measures taken to reduce CO2.

Trialmaster · Jun 22, 2023

If we believed in saving the planet, none of us would be purchasing Grenadiers, except for industries that would need a utility variant (instead of those trying to justify them as VAT free in the UK).
I would go further:
1) Ban all forms of motorsport; F1, BTCC, WEC, WTCC........ F1 talks about NETZERO - how ridiculous when the circus is flown all around the world.
2) Ban anything that is powered by ICE that is used for pleasure, including Motorbikes, Off-Road toys.
3) Ban anything that uses electricity that is deemed wasteful, Drones for argument sake.

The list is endless, my point is, if we are serious in saving the planet stop producing unessential crap. However, we all know this will never happen, we as humans need to buy the crap and I love it.

klarie · Jun 22, 2023

Nomad said:
If we believed in saving the planet, none of us would be purchasing Grenadiers, except for industries that would need a utility variant (instead of those trying to justify them as VAT free in the UK).
I would go further:
1) Ban all forms of motorsport; F1, BTCC, WEC, WTCC........ F1 talks about NETZERO - how ridiculous when the circus is flown all around the world.
2) Ban anything that is powered by ICE that is used for pleasure, including Motorbikes, Off-Road toys.
3) Ban anything that uses electricity that is deemed wasteful, Drones for argument sake.

The list is endless, my point is, if we are serious in saving the planet stop producing unessential crap. However, we all know this will never happen, we as humans need to buy the crap and I love it.

Exactly. Btw it is not even proven that all these measures will save / protect the planet. - Of course humans do a lot of stupid things. - See it almost every day. But Mother Nature and the planet will survive humans. Wisdom is something that is achieved my many never and by some quite late in life.

Norb-TX · Jun 22, 2023

To me going EV is not environmental at all. $50K - $100K is not someone being environmental. Or 0-60mph in under 4 seconds. Its about being less reliant on imported oil. The US wants to be "energy" independent. If using natural gas (which we have plenty) nuclear, wind and solar or coal (the US doesn't use oil for electricity), that means less oil coming from the middle east/Russia. Those guys aren't our friends. So giving them less of our dollars is good enough reason to switch to EV. And I live in oil town USA.

klarie · Jun 22, 2023

Norb-TX said:
To me going EV is not environmental at all. $50K - $100K is not someone being environmental. Or 0-60mph in under 4 seconds. Its about being less reliant on imported oil. The US wants to be "energy" independent. If using natural gas (which we have plenty) nuclear, wind and solar or coal (the US doesn't use oil for electricity), that means less oil coming from the middle east/Russia. Those guys aren't our friends. So giving them less of our dollars is good enough reason to switch to EV. And I live in oil town USA.

Indeed - yes I do agree.. on the environmental subject I do agree on current B- EV. - On the other topics I do not comment - as this is getting deeply political.
Currently on North Sea coast.. here are a lot of people with e-bicycle around. more than with Bio -(manual only) bicycles - in such application a Battery operated bicycle is okay and has established itself because of easy to use, versatility and price / value relation.
A Methanol or Ethanol FC EV would definitely be something that I would consider.
Existing Gas/ Petrolstations could be reused. So Infrastructure stays as is.
Fuel can be stored in Jerry Cans
Less weight than an battery verhicle. And all the other disadvantages of B-EV.
Fast refuel.
And all the advantages of an E-Motor such as high torque, quiet run..
As of now, we do not have efficient fuel cells for both ethanol or methanol.
Also production of Ethanol and methanol requires energy.. so indeed NukePower or something to produce this.
However - we are as of now far - far away from that. As long as this is not achieved - EV is unsuitable for my purpose.
Politics will for me never be a reason of purchase decision. Purpose only. If something doesn't fit it is wasted money. IG is far to expensive to sacrifice certain requirements just to fit in the political agenda.

Logsplitter · Jul 16, 2023

View: https://youtu.be/FKeFiT-RH9Y

DaveB · Jul 16, 2023

Boston Boy said:
Remember the Category 5 hurricane Katrina that hit the US coast? The weather service told everyone to leave and head north. As I remember the distance to get out of danger was a 5 hour drive. This was pre-EV, but imaging the tussles at the recharging stations 3 hours north if we all had electric vehicles. We have not figured out the best solution yet, but as a semi-geezer and avid winter hunter, the huge reduction in the ice and snow in my lifetime, and that of my parents, and my Swedish friends make me a true believer that climate change is real, and our CO2 is the reason.

Of course climate change is real, it can be measured.
The world has gone through several ice ages over the years but we only choose to look at the last 30-40 years.
Since the year 1800 the worlds population has gone from 1 Billion people to 8 Billion people.
Each one of us is putting out heat, consuming water and emitting CO2 & Methane.
That includes Vegans!!
We produce billions of tonnes of waste each year.
We produce more heat when we warm or cool our dwellings, workplaces and vehicles.
rotting piles of waste produce more methane and CO2
Global warming activists and protestors like to pick on internal combustion vehicles because the alternative is to look at themselves.
They think electric vehicles are the answer because they choose to ignore the negatives.
Building the charging infrastructure produces green house gasses, generating the electricity produces heat, waste and massive future problems.
They clearly haven't googled Lithium and Cobalt mining in Africa.
Homo Sapiens have only been on earth for about 200,000 years and no doubt will eventually disappear and earth will go on.
I don't believe electric vehicles will make any difference at all.
But then again I could be wrong.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hmqf0L52rD8

DaveB · Jul 16, 2023

Trialmaster said:
If we believed in saving the planet, none of us would be purchasing Grenadiers, except for industries that would need a utility variant (instead of those trying to justify them as VAT free in the UK).
I would go further:
1) Ban all forms of motorsport; F1, BTCC, WEC, WTCC........ F1 talks about NETZERO - how ridiculous when the circus is flown all around the world.
2) Ban anything that is powered by ICE that is used for pleasure, including Motorbikes, Off-Road toys.
3) Ban anything that uses electricity that is deemed wasteful, Drones for argument sake.

The list is endless, my point is, if we are serious in saving the planet stop producing unessential crap. However, we all know this will never happen, we as humans need to buy the crap and I love it.

Everyone talks about saving the planet but the planet will continue to exist.
We just may not like how it looks.
I bet there was a heap of dinosaurs complaining that it was starting to get cold and they wished the earth would warm up.

DCPU · Jul 17, 2023

Logsplitter said:
View: https://youtu.be/FKeFiT-RH9Y

Thanks ~ missed that.

It's a great pipe dream, but then wasn't the Grenadier also?

Hopefully, more of the technical bits about this will start popping up. I'd love to see the layout underneath.

Screenshot_20230715_080108_com.google.android.youtube.jpg

Screenshot_20230715_080042_com.google.android.youtube.jpg

Bobby Mac · Jul 17, 2023

DaveB said:
Of course climate change is real, it can be measured.
The world has gone through several ice ages over the years but we only choose to look at the last 30-40 years.
Since the year 1800 the worlds population has gone from 1 Billion people to 8 Billion people.
Each one of us is putting out heat, consuming water and emitting CO2 & Methane.
That includes Vegans!!
We produce billions of tonnes of waste each year.
We produce more heat when we warm or cool our dwellings, workplaces and vehicles.
rotting piles of waste produce more methane and CO2
Global warming activists and protestors like to pick on internal combustion vehicles because the alternative is to look at themselves.
They think electric vehicles are the answer because they choose to ignore the negatives.
Building the charging infrastructure produces green house gasses, generating the electricity produces heat, waste and massive future problems.
They clearly haven't googled Lithium and Cobalt mining in Africa.
Homo Sapiens have only been on earth for about 200,000 years and no doubt will eventually disappear and earth will go on.
I don't believe electric vehicles will make any difference at all.
But then again I could be wrong.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hmqf0L52rD8

Totally agree - climate change has been going on forever and will continue until the sun gets too close, burns out or whatever else the universe may throw at us. No one ever states what part of climate change is natural as against man assisted. Yes we should be curtailing waste and recycling more, but we should also accept that it will not cease and learn to live with it the best we can. There is no quick fix. Nature is far more powerful than man ever can be. What takes years of mans effort to restore an eroded beach, can be done by nature in an hour or two. Cyclone Yasi had enough power in it to run the world for a couple of years… wake up people... Mother Nature rules - just stop prodding the bear… be kind to her and live as best we can with here.

AnD3rew · Jul 17, 2023

DaveB said:
Everyone talks about saving the planet but the planet will continue to exist.
We just may not like how it looks.
I bet there was a heap of dinosaurs complaining that it was starting to get cold and they wished the earth would warm up.

The planet will ultimately be fine. Humans may not. I have zero doubt humans are causing rapid climate change that will have serious impacts on humans in multiple ways. We do need to reduce carbon however if we went all EV immediately it would only reduce emissions by about 8% and that’s ignoring other impacts that would come from rapid transition. But EVs and Hydrogen fuel cells will not give us that rapid transition and will not meet meet all the needs we have. For someone running around the city and charging at home either from a grid hopefully transitioning to renewables or from home solar ev makes sense. For heavy transport and distance touring it doesn’t, we just can’t build the infrastructure necessary at the scale necessary. Hydrogen probably similar although can be distributed through existing networks with moderate investment. Hydrogen produced in areas with excess renewable capacity and made into e-fuels that can be distributed through existing networks with basically no modification and carried in jerry cans, long range tanks etc, and run in existing ICE vehicles with little to no modification makes much more sense to me. But bigger gains will be made in other places by decarbonising the grid, by decarbonising energy heavy industries, by turbocharging the circular economy etc. I will have an EV for my next city runabout but I don’t apologize for my diesel grenadier which will be used mostly in places where an EV just won’t be practical in my lifetime, I do hope that in my lifetime I can run it on e-diesel though.

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Hydrogen Fuel Cell Grenadier testing about to start

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