The EV Thread..

Rather than hijack the Jeep thread here’s another EV point..

Hybrids. Kinetic energy recovery works well on the highway, slowing from 70 down to 20 generates plenty of power back into the battery, all good. But on a long overland trip on rough terrain I doubt there’ll be much energy to recover or the opportunity to recover it as you’ll be driving slower, much slower. So if a hybrid grenadier does appear in the future its likely to be less suited to overland travel. You’ll have maybe a 10 or 20 kw battery and maybe a 2 litre engine. You’ll burn through the 20kw pretty quick and then you’ll be running on regular fuel. Except you’ll only have a weedy 2.0l to pull you along… Another reason to hang on to your straight 6..

At constant rate, you don't need the 280hp to cruise comfortably. You only need the hybrid boost when accelerating. In which case the hybrid battery and and its programing will ensure it has enough charge for that case, as the computer will use the engine to charge the battery as well. I think maybe the engineers have thought of this. And hey, you euro's can alway brag that its F1 tech from the Ineos F1 team. That said, I wouldn't buy one if I had the option for the gas only engine. But we might not have a choice in the future.

Its just more to go wrong IMO. But from experience hybrids are pretty crap from a long distance point of view as once the battery is depleted you’re reliant on the engine which in the case of most hybrids is pretty feeble. I can see ICE Grenadiers being maintained well into the future long after new ones have become available. I’ll certainly be looking after mine for as long as I can.

Different strokes for different folks. The Wrangler EV is little more than a hybrid (which have been out for a while) designed to capture a $7500 tax credit. The legs on the actual EV battery are quite awful in the context of the aerodynamic parasitic drag.

Ineos chose to avoid hybrid drivetrain (simplicity) and is not competing for the high-volume mainstream segment. I do not see a world where they introduce a hybrid system at the cost of their base design element (simplicity, offroad prowess, body on frame).

If I am going EV, and I am. It won’t be hybrid and it won’t be for my touring 4x4. I will be buying a small full electric car in which I will do all the daily city running around and the 4x4 will be used only for recreational touring or when I need to move a load or tow etc.

EVs are perfectly adequate to travel the world in*

*with the right adventurous attitude and ample free time to solve challenges.

However, in a lot of the western world (i.e. USA, where Jeep's EV off-roaders are most likely to be popular), an EV adventure rig is likely not as horrible as people fear. I wouldn't want to rely on one outside of Western Europe, the USA, or main roads in Canada; for Asia, Australia, Africa, South America, I think ICE is the best option for the next few years (probably beyond 2030 at this stage at least), but for those other areas an electric 4x4 is very doable for folks who want an off road adventure rig, even today. Here's my reasoning:




That's a map of all the McDonalds in the continental USA. You are literally never more than 115 miles from a McDonalds in the lower 48. And, since there's no where in the USA that is more than 115 miles from the Golden Arches, which isn't exactly a big ask for EV range, it calls into question how we actually define "remote" and how that impacts our assumptions of what range is actually required. It's interesting to me how many folks will take a page from someone like Andrew St. Pierre White's perspective that an Overlander requires a thousand kilometers of range minimum -- and he's right, in Australia and Africa -- and try to apply that same "standard" to North America which has a totally different infrastructure context. Most 4x4 touring vehicles in North America will have about a 500 kilometer range. Lots of them will also have jerry cans mounted somewhere cool looking. But do any of us really need that if we're only ever 115 miles (185 km) from a McDonalds? Now, obviously McDonalds is just a restaurant, but I've never seen one on it's own - it's always in a town, surrounded by infrastructure - as in, places to plug in a car to charge if you need to. On 110 volt, that'll take a long time to juice up, but....

....Here's a map of EV Super Chargers, which while not yet exactly the same as the McDonalds map, it's showing a lot more "dots" than empty spaces.





As EV adoption continues, there will be more and more yellow dots on the above map until it looks like the McDonalds map. At that point - knowing you are never more than about 115 miles away from a supercharger -- the idea of an Overland adventure in the USA via EV becomes a pretty achievable situation even with the wrong attitude and limited time. The point I'm getting at is even the most "remote" areas aren't as remote as they might seem when you look at the actual numbers and distances from civilization.

TFL recently took an F150 Lightening with a camper on one of the most remote routes in the country - the Dalton up to Prudhoe Bay -- and they succeeded. So even the more remote parts of the world are accessible via EV.

ChasingOurTrunks said:

EVs are perfectly adequate to travel the world in*
. So even the more remote parts of the world are accessible via EV.

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I know many Americans have some trouble with this concept, but America is not the world.

I’m with @AnD3rew on this… and we’ll be getting an EV runaround soon

IG is for adventure… and because there’s no silver bullet. Our fuel dependency is hard to solve.

But we should acknowledge that the drawbacks with EV’s stem mostly from the energy storage practicality issues already discussed. Because an electric motor (or perhaps one on each wheel) is otherwise a superb propulsion method for a 4WD, and would simplify them greatly.

Hybrids are no good once the Battery runs dry. However, Fuel Cells will break that petrol battery issue, as the generated power through a cell will be/should be sufficient to keep the battery running at or near capacity. From what I learned, fuel cells will be able to ramp up and down very efficiently as draw increases or decreases. We are 5 years away from sufficient prototypes (real world viable) and still 10 years away though before we see proper advancements in that technology to mass consumers. I am being very positive!

We're all in on EVs. There's just not a desirable ice vehicle for sale here in the United States since we already have a heavy duty diesel truck. Grenadier will likely be our last new ice vehicle purchase, but that will depend on price. If I'm being honest, I'd rather have a landcruiser quad cab truck with a manual transmission and a diesel motor. Sigh.

@trobex you have a really good point about how far away viability is for some of the fuel cell tech. I was thinking about that myself; what I find fascinating is how many parallel streams of work are going on to find viable alternatives to fossil fuels. I'm not wanting to start a political debate on the merits of that reasoning as I know that's quite polarizing, but the undeniable fact is we've got companies from many industries pouring billions of dollars into R&D into alternatives to ICE. Basically every major manufacturer is exploring BEVs, Hyundai and Ineos are going full steam ahead on hydrogen, and even in other industries battery technology for smart phones to make 'em last longer are constantly being improved and explored. On the heavy industry side, Volvo and Cat are looking at powerplant options for heavy equipment, and building codes are requiring all kinds of things that change how we collect, store, and use energy. Any one area might see a major discovery towards viability or commercialization, and it could happen at any time.

And then we get into the real Star-Trek-Made-Real stuff like Molten Salt Nuclear Reactors, impressive breakthroughs with Low Energy Nuclear Reactions -- these could also see major breakthroughs in the near future towards viability, and this too would have a profound impact on how we use energy.

And then if we want to get really crazy -- as if cold fusion wasn't crazy enough already -- apparently there's things flying around that can go from the water, to the sky, to space, have no visible control surfaces, and no visible means of propulsion, and are seen by Air Force Pilots, confirmed on RADAR and other technology, and have been reporting flying over nuclear installations in America and rendering them inoperable. (Yes, I'm referring to UFOs, and no, I'm not crazy; the US Government has changed their tune in the last few years and now 100% confirms that UFOs are not just swamp gas or crazy people seeing things like they used to claim -- these are real, physical objects that are flying around and as-yet do not have an explanation.) It doesn't matter to me whether these are aliens or some secret black-site Skunkworks thing from a letter agency...how do they fly around like that? What kind of technology is producing and storing the energy? How amazing will that tech be in my 4x4 touring vehicle, and when can I get it???

I know a lot of people scoff at the idea of phasing out ICE by 2035, as so many governments have legislated; I agree with them that gas and diesel cars are going to be around for a long time after that. But most folks don't think ICE is going away because they believe that there are inadequacies in the way electric cars can be used; my take is not only is electric perfectly adequate as of today for the vast majority of people, but in addition, given the amount of resources being poured into so many different technologies that help humans use and store energy for locomotion, I think its reasonable that by 2035 we are going to have other choices beyond "Gas or electric?" (or at least, the type of gas and source of electricity will likely be significantly different than it is today). So in short - I am being very positive too!

(And I secretly hope it's friendly Aliens).

mgohillbilly said:

We're all in on EVs. There's just not a desirable ice vehicle for sale here in the United States since we already have a heavy duty diesel truck. Grenadier will likely be our last new ice vehicle purchase, but that will depend on price. If I'm being honest, I'd rather have a landcruiser quad cab truck with a manual transmission and a diesel motor. Sigh.

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There is no viable Utility EV on the market for real world use - especially for the Aussie market. I can/do 200+km a day for work easily... and that will drain any current EV on the market to flat and not having options to charge 'on the way' or at point of work is 9/10ths the time.

The RivR1 and Cybertruck cannot fill the gap - not even close. Towing with EVs (say a 1.5T box trailer with gear) is hideous on range... tried and tested.

Wife and I have decided that her next car (about 3-4 years away) will be a mid-high range (kms) EV. No idea where the market is heading and how pricing is stacking up but to fit a family of 4 comfortably and get around: - that's the question. Spending $100K on an EV is also out of the question as we can just run her car in to the ground and not have to fork out life savings for the sake of an EV. They need to become drastically cheaper.

Agree. And this raises questions about potentially diminishing choice with regard to personal transportation options, for the average person.

i.e. the tech-curious rich can afford to buy into electrification - for mobility and the home - effectively buying themselves out of the problem, whilst carbon is increasingly likely to be legislated against (i.e. taxed). Difficult to see how this is going to pan out, for the average person.

My personal view is that in a few decades time, private ownership of mobility devices will increasingly be the preserve of the rich.

I should add that I don't feel great about having a new 3L diesel car on order... boo hoo, right ... but time is moving forwards at the rate of 1 second per second.

We could (and some might) die waiting around for viable alternatives... so just getting on with it, whilst still have family and health.

trobex said:

Hybrids are no good once the Battery runs dry. However, Fuel Cells will break that petrol battery issue, as the generated power through a cell will be/should be sufficient to keep the battery running at or near capacity. From what I learned, fuel cells will be able to ramp up and down very efficiently as draw increases or decreases. We are 5 years away from sufficient prototypes (real world viable) and still 10 years away though before we see proper advancements in that technology to mass consumers. I am being very positive!

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@trobex we have a hybrid, no battery issues as it is protected by the ECU form being completely depleted, I also like the extra torque delivery, BMW already have a MHEV system for the B57 so I guess they aren't too far away from reality.

AnD3rew said:

If I am going EV, and I am. It won’t be hybrid and it won’t be for my touring 4x4. I will be buying a small full electric car in which I will do all the daily city running around and the 4x4 will be used only for recreational touring or when I need to move a load or tow etc.

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That is exactly what we've done. EV (arriving soon) to do all those little small trips around the city. 4x4 for the big jobs and trips. I don't want a hybrid 4x4. It's another layer of complexity that I don't want to deal with in the bush.

Personally I'm not sure hybrids are really worth it for any car. Do you ever save the money in fuel from the extra purchase price? To Toyotas credit they are pretty reliable.

DesertGecko said:

Personally I'm not sure hybrids are really worth it for any car. Do you ever save the money in fuel from the extra purchase price? To Toyotas credit they are pretty reliable.

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And add ICE service costs to EV service costs...

The issue with EV’s is the infrastructure. I have a Tesla and do about 14k miles per year in it. You cannot rely on non Tesla charging infrastructure - it works as advertised in my experience less than 50% of the time which means you just don’t factor it into your journey. What I mean is you plug into a 50kw charger and it charges at 3kw or just doesn’t work and that’s after some sort of app download and a specific account setup. I’ve got to sites to see only 2 chargers both with out of order messages. It means for practical purposes you avoid the EV for journeys over 200 miles round trip. Ideal set up for now is one ICE car and one EV.

MrMike said:

@trobex we have a hybrid, no battery issues as it is protected by the ECU form being completely depleted, I also like the extra torque delivery, BMW already have a MHEV system for the B57 so I guess they aren't too far away from reality.

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No what I mean is once your Battery is flat (not dead) then you rely on a weaker ICE. In utilities, that isn't viable nor wanted. But Hybrids have their place for sure.

Pipm4000 said:

The issue with EV’s is the infrastructure. I have a Tesla and do about 14k miles per year in it. You cannot rely on non Tesla charging infrastructure - it works as advertised in my experience less than 50% of the time which means you just don’t factor it into your journey. What I mean is you plug into a 50kw charger and it charges at 3kw or just doesn’t work and that’s after some sort of app download and a specific account setup. I’ve got to sites to see only 2 chargers both with out of order messages. It means for practical purposes you avoid the EV for journeys over 200 miles round trip. Ideal set up for now is one ICE car and one EV.

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This has been my experience too.