Europe Into production

Barney · Jan 14, 2023

Fidei Defensor said:
Sicherlich senden Sie Ihre Anzahlung, aber übergeben Sie den Scheck, wenn Sie die Schlüssel erhalten?

Ich habe gestern Krah & Enders angerufen, sie wissen auch nicht, wie es läuft. Ich wurde gebeten zu warten. Bei K&E wusste niemand, dass mein Auto in Produktion war.

DaveB · Jan 14, 2023

Fidei Defensor said:
Surely you send your deposit but hand over the check when you get the keys?

Try handing over a cheque in Australia and the sales people would wonder what it is.
I don't think I have seen one in the last 20 years

Jean Mercier · Jan 14, 2023

DaveB said:
I don't think I have seen one in the last 20 years

Same for me!

Tazzieman · Jan 14, 2023

emax said:
Yesterday, I had a business trip to München with an ICE. This is the super-duper-fastest-and-best-train of the Deutsche Bahn. The two way ticket was 320 € - which is the same as a flight from Frankfurt to Las Vegas ...

Upon arrival in München it was one hour late.
The ICE is electric.

The Porsche 928 was marketed as quicker than an aeroplane for city to city business types. When you factor in airport queues, taxis etc., not wrong - especially today.

Tazzieman · Jan 14, 2023

DaveB said:
Try handing over a cheque in Australia and the sales people would wonder what it is.
I don't think I have seen one in the last 20 years

My local Porsche club was still using them 2 years ago , when I resigned from the committee.

emax · Jan 14, 2023

Tazzieman said:
When you factor in airport queues, taxis etc., not wrong

Compared with a private flight (=Porsche) and the train it looks like below for the road-distance of 400 Km (the private flight doesn't suffer from airport queues and other trouble):

By airplane, traveling speed 110 kts in 7000 ft:
Drive to airfield: 30 Minutes
Get the papers from the tower (logbook etc) and check papers: 10 minutes
Pull the airplane out of the hangar: 15 minutes
Outside check, engine check, oil refill : 15 minutes
Eventually fuel up: 20 minutes (depends on fuel level)
Cockpit check, engine start, taxiing: 10 minutes
Flight to Oberpaffenhofen (nearby München. München International Airport is way to expensive to land): 104 minutes
taxi to parking lot: 5 minutes
checkout, secure airplane, paperwork, landing payment: 20 minutes
waiting for taxi: 15 minutes
taxi to city: 20 minutes
costs: one way flight: 227 Euros
taxi: 60 Euros

total: 244 minutes one way, with good weather conditions and no refueling assumed.
Pure flight time is great compared to the train. But all the other fuzz ...

By train:
Drive to railway station in Aschaffenburg: 60 Minutes including walk from parking area to railway station
Train: 163 minutes from Aschaffenburg to München city. No taxi reqired, by subway my customer is just 5 minutes away.
Subway: 5 minutes

total: 228 Minutes one way.
However: with the delay of 60 minutes it was 288 minutes ...
Costs: train 160 Euros one way
Drive to railway station @ 30ct/km: 12 Euros

Depending on your hourly rate the flight is already better even if the train is in time. Including the train delay the flight is clearly the better choice. But uncertainties (weather etc.) are worse with a private flight and for saftey reasons it's to arrive before sunset so you have to plan for an earlier day time for the trip.

Time for flight planning, NOTAMs check and weather report was not included.
But buying a Deutsche Bahn ticket at the PC is a one hour battle as well ...

And apparently, there are also quite some uncertainties with Deutsche Bahn to consider.

Jean Mercier · Jan 14, 2023

emax said:
But buying a Deutsche Bahn ticket at the PC is a one hour battle as well ...

And apparently, there are also quite some uncertainties with Deutsche Bahn to consider.

I take very often the train to go to Brussels or Antwerp, very cheap because I am an old man: 7.20 €. Cheaper than taking my car!
They have an app (the railways I mean) and in less than 2 minutes, I think even less than one minute, I have paid and my ticket is on my phone. I would guess Deutsche Bahn has also an app.

But indeed there are uncertainties.

And specially for @emax , another country I have been is Syria on my own, by train from my city through Germany (partly with the ICE, indeed very good!), and through Austria, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and to the middle of Turkey. The rest of the trip was with small busses, taxis, etc. That was in 2010, the year before the war, I was lucky, saw things that don't exist anymore. Allepo (Halep) was a magical city, so beautiful. I finished in Jordan and Israel. I came back by plane.
Syria was a splendid country with very nice people! But I felt several times that state agents were watching me. Some "friendly" people always asked me where I was going

I didn't do it by car, because it would have taken me double the time, and I was still working full time.

Now, I would do it by car (Grenadier of course), but I guess it is still not everywhere safe.

Tazzieman · Jan 14, 2023

My rough calculations is that it would take nearly 4 hours (more if bladder is weak) by 928 at about 150 euros cost. Surrounded by your own music and body odour.
You would of course have to pay for parking.

DaveB · Jan 14, 2023

Jean Mercier said:
I take very often the train to go to Brussels or Antwerp, very cheap because I am an old man: 7.20 €. Cheaper than taking my car!
They have an app (the railways I mean) and in less than 2 minutes, I think even less than one minute, I have paid and my ticket is on my phone. I would guess Deutsche Bahn has also an app.

But indeed there are uncertainties.

And specially for @emax , another country I have been is Syria on my own, by train from my city through Germany (partly with the ICE, indeed very good!), and through Austria, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and to the middle of Turkey. The rest of the trip was with small busses, taxis, etc. That was in 2010, the year before the war, I was lucky, saw things that don't exist anymore. Allepo (Halep) was a magical city, so beautiful. I finished in Jordan and Israel. I came back by plane.
Syria was a splendid country with very nice people! But I felt several times that state agents were watching me. Some "friendly" people always asked me where I was going
I didn't do it by car, because it would have taken me double the time, and I was still working full time.

Now, I would do it by car (Grenadier of course), but I guess it is still not everywhere safe.

I like travelling by train when I am in Europe because you usually arrive in the middle of the city not at an airport 30-40 minutes away
You can also look out the window at the scenery and the normal households and suburbs
It is also often possible to get up and walk around to stretch the legs on a longer trip.
Last year I had to travel from Andermatt to Basel and I had plenty of time so I took the longer route with one change of train.
I took first class luckily as 2nd class got very crowded
I arrived in Basel 200 metres from my next hotel

DaveB · Jan 14, 2023

Tazzieman said:
My rough calculations is that it would take nearly 4 hours (more if bladder is weak) by 928 at about 150 euros cost. Surrounded by your own music and body odour.
You would of course have to pay for parking.
View attachment 7800335

Plus the 928 is a fantastic vehicle when you can find a good one

Tazzieman · Jan 14, 2023

DaveB said:
Plus the 928 is a fantastic vehicle when you can find a good one

You mean like my '81 Gentleman's Express , aka "Bruce"?

DaveB · Jan 14, 2023

Tazzieman said:
You mean like my '81 Gentleman's Express , aka "Bruce"? View attachment 7800339

Nice.
I missed out on buying a beautiful one about 20 years ago when I was outbid by another guy.
It was an S4

Steve.B · Jan 15, 2023

Tazzieman said:
The Porsche 928 was marketed as quicker than an aeroplane for city to city business types. When you factor in airport queues, taxis etc., not wrong - especially today.

German autobahn I can believe, unfortunately not here.
Porsche does or has done its hot wether testing in NT Australia, it cycles between no speed limit to 130kmh depending on who is in government, but between Tennant creek and Alice Springs 500km straight road it is more often than not unlimited. I read an article in motor magazine about 10 years ago where five 911 GT4 S Porsches were tested from Darwin to Alice 1500km and then Alice to Ayres Rock, and the average speed was unbelievably a little over 300kmh, including cattle grids one racing car driver chickens out after about 600km siting road tyres and no cage, but a good read.

Bushguide · Jan 15, 2023

Steve.B said:
German autobahn I can believe, unfortunately not here.
Porsche does or has done its hot wether testing in NT Australia, it cycles between no speed limit to 130kmh depending on who is in government, but between Tennant creek and Alice Springs 500km straight road it is more often than not unlimited. I read an article in motor magazine about 10 years ago where five 911 GT4 S Porsches were tested from Darwin to Alice 1500km and then Alice to Ayres Rock, and the average speed was unbelievably a little over 300kmh, including cattle grids one racing car driver chickens out after about 600km siting road tyres and no cage, but a good read.

Interesting point about NT road restrictions ... some years ago one of the incoming NT govt decided to make some road speed restrictions (Clair Martin I think it was an ex ABC reporter in the NT.) lowering the speed from "No Speed Restrictions" to a max speed of 130kph. The end result after one year was a doubling of the road deaths, yes a doubling because more people were going to sleep over the long distances involved in travelling that part of Australia. I guess at the high speeds the adrenaline flows pretty quickly and keeps you more alert.

klarie · Jan 15, 2023

Interesting calculations.. til this Corona stuff began I was quite often on business travel in Germany and surrounding countries. Any transportation. Deutsche Bahn often had delays.. Traffic Jams on road, The flights were most reliable and least delayed. Even in peak times..
However going on road has far mor flexibility than rail or aircraft even if you use private aircraft.
In my case.. Hey could you go to Copenhagen for 3 days supporting this customer.. packed my stuff went on short haul to Copenhage.. while in Copenhagen I received a call .. instead of home you gonna travel to London. So I had a flight to London and then another one to Oslo before I finally got home.
Okay that was one of the worst conditions I ever had, spent time to prepare for customers, organize transportation and get clothes cleaned and ironed in time..
When I use the company car .. if more time at customer needed .. so what, there is another customer visit in acceptable distance just go there.. perhaps book another hotel or let the assistant do this. entirely considering.. fewer invoices to reimburse, fuel is paid by company and take a break when I need it, also no other people that are walking on my nerves or smelly.. Lower risk of pickpockets and other scum, no guys that promote an Amex blue or Centurion .. pain in the lower back. Okay when driving a vehicle it’s all depending on me, permanently focus, its on me to have a safe ride. Advantage of going by train, 1st class, relativ quiet, space to work, coffee at seat. Flight.. if no luggage and organized ground transportation still the quicker way.
Anyway.. Now.. business travel became rare, no more company car, more time for myself , mostly zoom and teams, and a choice of car I (we) like not the company‘s head of finance.

rovie · Jan 15, 2023

Unfortunately, the German autobahns will soon be history. The Greens will manage that. We will then organise races there with pedal scooters and walking aid for the handicapped. Rosy prospects.

klarie · Jan 15, 2023

rovie said:
Unfortunately, the German autobahns will soon be history. The Greens will manage that. We will then organise races there with pedal scooters and walking aid for the handicapped. Rosy prospects.

Perhaps.. @rovie we re moving again in away from thread topic. Please no political topics. We all know.. And road conditions are deteriorating anyway so an IG might be required sooner than later.
Hope more participants will tell once their IG is gone in production.. Assume still somewhat March if really ok end of February we will see first owners..

Tazzieman · Jan 15, 2023

The great thing about the Grenadier is that unlike Porsches and the like , we will not need autobahns to realise the cars potential.

rovie · Jan 15, 2023

Tazzieman said:
The great thing about the Grenadier is that unlike Porsches and the like , we will not need autobahns to realise the cars potential.

You are absolutely right!

rovie · Jan 15, 2023

klarie said:
Perhaps.. @rovie we re moving again in away from thread topic. Please no political topics. We all know.. And road conditions are deteriorating anyway so an IG might be required sooner than later.
Hope more participants will tell once their IG is gone in production.. Assume still somewhat March if really ok end of February we will see first owners..

Yes, @klarie , you're right. I just have to block out this "club".

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